Games The First (Only?) SWC Triple Threat Mini Draft

@Point Given @KenKenobi - Let's Judge

 

In my opinion Yoda's style is often meeting his opponents where they are, seen in Attack of the Clones. Here it is not Yoda's choice to engage in a bout of force power face off, but Dooku's, and when Dooku comes at him with a lightsaber, Yoda responds in kind, and does not avoid a lightsaber bout at all. It is also seen in RotS. Sidious throws force lightning, Yoda throws Sidious, Sidious does a flip to recover, Yoda does a flip to move one foot to his right. Yoda isn't ever here avoiding lightsaber confrontation per se, he is literally just going with whatever form of combat his opponent initiates. If, as you say, Jacen would make this a brutal all out physical duel, Yoda would absolutely give him that chance and engage on the same front, at least at first.
I mean, I'm not sure who I'd pick here, but this just piqued my interest.

 

I'll be more concise next time if you want but I'm going nowhere for the holidays OKAY


Jordan vs. clonecombo (great nickname btw)

Skywalker over Malak (prepped)— Yeah this was the problem drafting Malak-- even prepped, he’s just not in the same tier as these other dudes, not especially the Chosen One. The cortosis chest plate wasn’t a bad angle, but Anakin's faced crazier obstacles before-- including cortosis itself in the New Thrawn Trilogy (what a weird timeline we're in). I’d consider switching your prep cloneco, and maybe think about trumping with him instead of trumping…


Vader/Starkiller over Dooku— Not a bad arg @Jordan1Kenobi, and kudos for making us think about what would otherwise seem a slice. But you made the bigger point in your bit on Anakin-- he just so completely dismantles Dooku in RotS.

And while you're right he loses some mobility, I actually think that forces him as Vader to be even more calculated with his blade (instead of literally just leaping right in, which is how Dooks has taken advantage before with that Force/saber combo you mention). Anakin's like a young 5-tool player and Vader is that player as a less athletic but more savvy vet...and yes I spent too much time Baseball Drafting before this. But it’s hard to put faith in Dooku overcoming a ferocity that already killed him AND Starkiller flying around with novelized powers, particularly plenty of lightning of his own.


Luke over Vader via forfeit— DAMNIT


Mace vs. Revan

Appreciate the args!

Love that you brought up the Revan duality clonecombo-- it adds to this slobberknocker that by Revan (the novel), Revan (the guy) demonstrates the ability to channel light/dark simultaneously...which absolutely mimics Windu's ability to do the same with Vaapad.

That's also part of each having a casual ruthlessness about them. You sense Mace's violence bubbling just under the surface in Shatterpoint, and the way Revan dismisses Nyriss is calm and cold and convincing-- to say nothing of the hundreds of other bodies in his wake. These dudes are more similar than they know.

Speaking of Shatterpoint...what would Revan's be? Bastila maybe, but that's all but burnt away by the time he gets put in stasis well past her death. His mental state def deteriorates, but that's likely not how he'll show up in peak here...so there's a real possibility Revan is the most balanced, confusing opponent Mace has ever faced.

Ultimately though...I'm buying what Jordan1's selling re: bladework. Revan's Niman is a mix of elements, a blend that can be flexible for dif opponents-- which makes sense given the wild range he's had to face, from terentateks to Mandos to Sith. It's gonna be a ***** trying to adapt against Vaapad though, which functions on unpredictability and speed ("How many arms do you see?").

Rev's Echani background can help prevent him from being immediately overwhelmed, but Vaapad is like Echani arts on cocaine. Against a caliber of Jedi who can match him in ways he'd normally overwhelm someone, I'm buying that Revan struggles just enough when Mace puts the press on with his lightsaber.

Winner: Mace Windu


PS @clone commander bossk, don't get too caught up in titles here. Way more effective to argue what someone did in a fight (and how they could replicate it here in a match) than pointing they became Dark Lord of the Sith. For example, Ahsoka never attains the rank of Jedi Knight, but her exploits show fighting chops above that of even contemporary Masters (especially ones not specialized in combat).


SithO vs. RX_Sith

Yoda over Jacen— This hurts my soul, but truly Caeds at his peak is an overconfident idiot the likes of which Yoda is primed to **** with and make slip up. Though I suppose (similar to Revan) taking him at his peak means his mental peak too, likely circa TUF...but I'll drive myself crazy with those possibilities. They made Jacen an unstable jackass and I have to live with it.

Moreover I like what @Point Given said, in that Jacen excels-- I'll take it a step further and say is the literal best-- at grueling physical battles. And Yoda is kind of the perfect foil, bounding all over-- and like @BookExogorth noted, reacting to Jacen's aggression. That's the opposite of the Kenobi strategy, which is to intentionally *not* chase the little green guy around and instead use that movement against him.

But mostly I’m making this call b/c @SithOverlord101 you left off the resume his most impressive thing to me-- the Nursery in Traitor. Which btw you should def read. Please read it.

Anyway I can't believe I did this. Somewhere my 2005 self is weeping, and not b/c no one would go to prom with him. But what if I...


KENOBI OVER SIDS YES I SAID IT— NOT A SLICE POINTY and we'll see if I ever buy you a Lyft again for that NOT FUNNY JOKE

Look I waffled on this b/c I'm aware it makes me look like a Looney Tune of homerism and undermines my legit arg that he could outlast Yoda. But I can't get over A) That it's maybe my one chance to do it, and B) All the talk last draft of Palps's friendly fire. It happens THREE TIMES! He literally has a Hat Trick of Killing Himself With His Own Lightning.

Is there a more perfect person to surprise him with a deflection than the guy who hangs off cliffs and then somehow pops back? Is this secretly revenge for Obi-Wan losing to Rey last draft (yet somehow still in @RX_Sith's favor)? Am I banned from judging and/or the boards entirely? Whatever, he's technically one of the All the Jedi who already kill him in TROS, a movie that makes far less sense than I sound right now. Viva la Kenobi!


Krayt over Bane— Yep. Good argument and statement win for Krayt (I actually give him even more credit in the Abeloth fight). Essence Transfer I don’t think will come into play here for Bane, and Krayt doesn’t have it anyway— SithO you may be conflating Karness Muur’s intentions to take his body with Krayt’s pseudo-immortality being referred to as “Dark Transfer.” The latter is actually a separate ability, the one Cade uses to bring peeps back to life.

PS careful boiling down resumes to pure numbers. Not saying you did that here (you included qualitative analysis too, solid job)-- but I'm someone who thinks LeBron is the GOAT with a 4-6 Finals record. Keep layering in that context.


Jaina vs. Sithperor

Two things about Sithperor stand out to me. One, he simply hasn’t shown top-end bladework, and while that’s partially a function of blowing peeps away without needing it, it’s also not something he’s really honed, similar to his progeny Vaylin.

Second, those blowing away moments tend to have something in common— whoever is headed to attack him has to wade through swaths of enemies approaching the throne room or whatever while he sits and waits and basically preps. That won't be the case here, as he doesn't get the benefit of foresight, won't be able to prepare a ritual like Nathema/Ziost or feed off the life of servants, and will be forced to contend with someone straight gunning for him with saber...

...which is exactly how the Hero of Tython defeated him. Sithperor launched attacks that HoT could avoid behind the Fortress pillars until you could deflect his lightning and strike him.

What really tips it is about Jaina though. Sithperor is a master of manipulation, prob next only to Sids depending on your playthrough. But Jaina, unlike what they did to her brother, is more than just mentally focused. She’s Yun-Harla, the Trickster Goddess. She can pull her own ****, she’s gonna scoff at his bull****, and if it becomes a physical fight she has quite a brutal array of attacks to surprise him with. Yoda he is not.

Also color me jaded by the real world but I'm just not voting an evil power-hungry old man over a talented idealistic young woman right now.

Winner: Jaina Solo


@DarthIntegral for Jaina/Sithperor and uh the other one

 

@KenKenobi totally forgot about the nursery fight in Traitor -- I have the book, so it was just a mental brainfart.

Traitor's probably my third-favorite SW book (behind Shadows of Adumar and Darth Plagueis)

Krayt did say that he knows essence transfer.

 

Look, it's not crazy to think Kenobi could beat The Emperor. It's certainly in the realm of possibility. I think everything pointed out in the judgment - that Kenobi excels against the overconfident, that he has a crazy ability to just survive in battles, that the Emperor is an idiot and can't help but help defeat himself all help Kenobi. But - to use a D&D analogy - I think for Kenobi to win it, he's got to roll a critical hit, and anything but that 20 on the d20 ain't gonna cut it. It says here The Emperor takes it more often than he doesn't, so he gets my vote.

And for me, Jaina has two strengths that are top notch - her sword work, and the versatility and variety of opponents she's faced and felled. Almost nobody and nothing in this draft is going to catch her off guard, and once a match becomes a battle of lightsabers, there are very, very few I would put over Jaina. Jaina of many surnames takes it.

@clone commander bossk - I would echo the advise given in the previous judgment about preps and trumps. Not to mention, you only get three preps in the entire draft, so they are precious and should be used with caution.

Final Results:

Jordan defeats clocombo 3-1

Rx_sith and Sith101 are tied 2-2 ... which means ... TEAMS

Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Bane and Jaina Solo vs. Jacen Solo, The Emperor, Darth Krayt and The Other Emperor

@RX_Sith @SithOverlord101 - let's see those arguments.

 

I'll probably post my main argument tomorrow, but I want to say this first:

RX's team will have cohesion problems -- I don't see Darth Bane playing well with the other three.

 

So, here we go:

I can see three ways in which this matchup plays out:

Way 1:

• Yoda ==< Sidious
• Kenobi = Prepped Vitiate
• Jaina = Jacen
• Bane < Krayt

Sidious already beat/drew a prime Yoda in ROTS, so I expect a prime Sidious to beat Yoda in a fight. The Solo twins' duel is probably inconclusive, as is Prepped Vitiate vs. Kenobi (Kenobi is not enough of an offensive duelist to immediately deal with Vitiate's weakness in lightsaber combat, while a prepped Vitiate probably forces this match into a force contest), We already saw Bane - Krayt. I feel that Bane gets eliminated rather quickly in this scenario, and Krayt moves to help Vitiate overwhelm Kenobi, and then Vitiate and Sidious double-team Yoda while Krayt and Jacen do the same to Jaina.

Way 2:

• Yoda ==< Sidious
• Kenobi = Jacen
• Jaina = Prepped Vitiate
• Bane < Krayt

The previous analysis fits this duel except for the switch in the middle.

Way 3:

• Yoda ==< Sidious
• Kenobi >== Krayt
• Jaina = Jacen
• Bane << Vitiate

Krayt holds off Kenobi long enough for Vitiate to turn Bane into a smothering husk, and Kenobi is promptly double-teamed by the two Emperors. See the first analysis for how the other two fights turn out.

Basically, Bane is a heavy weak link in this matchup. He's just not on the same tier as the others and probably gets killed quicker than any of RX's combatants (Jaina/Kenobi) are able to defeat my middle two. This, alongside the fact that RX's team will probably end up squabbling amongst themselves during the prep time due to Bane's aversion to working with Jedi, causes the matchup to go in my favor.

RX just doesn't have enough firepower to take down my team.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

How to get @KenKenobi to write us up a Joe Posnanski-esque piece.

 

It shorted out my brain lol

Also Sithperor isn't prepped in the team battle unless I'm wildly mistaken?

 

I thought everyone was prepped

 

Yep

Everyone prepped to get strategy, but no extra weapons, per OP

 

Idk if @RX_Sith is gonna join to counter, but @SithOverlord101 can you speak to how you imagine Krayt/Caedus working together?

I realize Yoda might have concerns about Bane's darkness, but actually don't see him beefing with these strangers in the moment. Whereas Caeds just about burnt down a galaxy just having a dream about Krayt.

I'll try to judge tmrw or Sat evening since there *is* college football to care about. [happy tear] PS do we count the MLS title as 9 straight Inty?

 

Regarding Jacen and Krayt:

• You have a good point there, but I feel like the fact that they are fellow Sith alongside the fact that they are both facing opponents who either killed (Jaina) or maimed (Kenobi) them will prevent it from escalating too far. Also, I see Sithperor and Sidious keeping the other two Sith in line.
• Not sure about Jaina being willing to work with Bane (Yoda and Kenobi might stand him, but Jaina despises Sith).

 

Nah. Just switch the metric

 

@KenKenobi @Point Given

If the first round was a party, then it's time to make it so that

 

RX vs. SithO

Yoda/Kenobi/Jaina/Bane vs. Palps/Sithperor/Caeds/Krayt

To me it's...

Yoda < Sidious, I think Sids is clearly better post-RotJ even if their duel was in a sense a draw (Yoda retreated realizing he couldn't let knowing the Jedi's critical mistakes die with him, according to the novelization-- which btw I'm guessing those aren't canon now? Will they re-do them? Am I overthinking this?)

Kenobi > Sithperor, borne out in the past 2 drafts with 2 separate groups of judges, neither of which included me who also thinks this

Jaina <= Jacen, I think obviously a healthy Jacen and unaided Jaina changes the dynamic of their final duel

Bane < Krayt, clearest of the bunch


Individual advantage = @SithOverlord101

Unfortunately SithO, I’m not buying the cohesion arg. “Jaina doesn’t like Sith, so she’ll…literally not work with one to take down a full team of Sith? Including her traitorous brother and the Biggest Evilest Sith Of All Time She Ever Heard About Constantly From Her Master Mara Jade?” I think that’s a stretch. She’s also not above playing dirty, hell she uses lightning in Dark Journey.

And that’s not including Bane being a consummate survivalist— his entire arc is about thinking the Sith are ****ing idiots and eventually establishing a rule that there’s not too many of them. He’s not gonna shy away from working with whoever with his life on the line.

I also find Bane taking orders from Yoda (who would immediately be considered the leader by Kenobi/Jaina) and joining a Mind Meld to be less problematic than Jacen trying to convince Emperor Palpatine of it, to say nothing of everyone on that team seriously believing they are the Greatest True Emperor of the Galaxy. Talk about friction.

Anyway, the best cohesion is having actually worked together...in which case Yoda/Kenobi are the only pair here. And bad cohesion is killing your aunt and attacking your literal actual family members b/c of visions of a guy who is suddenly standing next to you.

Ironically enough, I think the most likely scenario is one you didn’t list— Yoda vs. Sids and Jacen vs. Jaina, obviously (idk if anything can keep those guys from going at it). But I think Krayt and Kenobi square off in a rematch, and Bane and Sithperor wage a Karpyshynian War. That may even favor Bane in the sense that he could make it a roll around in the mud vs. a power display-- Bane is a stone cold mother****er and Sithperor is just not a guy who wants it to get to that.

All that said, I went back and forth but ultimately landed on two things...

1) Even in those matchups, the first two are clear individual advantages for SithO even if they lean toward long drawn out wars that can allow the other ones to wrap up and get support. Kenobi and Krayt won't be the desert version though, and Bane has to get it to the nasty fight or risk getting tossed around. So the edge is still slightly there.

2) SithO made an arg and @RX_Sith didn't, which is always the ultimate tiebreaker.

Winner: The Bad Guys

@Point Given @DarthIntegral

 

@KenKenobi, we all really know that the friction on my team (excluding Krayt/Jacen) will come from Sithperor and Sidious arguing over which Sith was better.

I also think that you are slightly undervaluing the fact that Sithperor has prep against Bane - I honestly don’t see Bane getting close enough to Vitiate before Vitiate lightning-stomps Bane. And Sithperor is not COMPLETELY hopeless with the blade - he does hold off Arcann for a bit in saber combat

 

Bane is also prepped. Everyone’s prepped.

If anything I think the prep best helps against Krayt, who has Yuuzhan Vong armor— as it allows time to research it/just let Jaina give a primer.

 

STANDINGS

@Jordan1Kenobi 1-0 (3-1)
@SithOverlord101 1-0 (2-2)
@RX_Sith 0-1 (2-2)
@clone commander bossk (1-3)

Round Two:

Jordan vs. Rx
SithOvie vs. ClonComBo

Get those numbers in ASAP!

Also - do any of you have team names? Did we skip that part? Or did I miss them?

 

Still looking for one set of numbers

 

I have Christmas Presents! New Matches!

@Jordan1Kenobi vs. @RX_Sith

Count Dooku vs. Jaina of many Names
Anakin Skywalker vs. Darth Bane
Luke Skywalker vs. Yoda
Mace Windu vs. Obi-Wan

@SithOverlord101 vs. @clone commander bossk

Emperor Jacen vs. Darth Vader
Emperor Krayt vs. Darth Malak
Emperor Vitiate vs Darth Revan
Emperor Palpatine vs. Darth Starkiller


@KenKenobi @Point Given @heels1785 @bburdit @SecondBest @Darth-Horax

 

Vitiate - Revan and Palpatine - Starkiller already happened in-universe (and Vitiate and Palpatine won).

I'll have arguments for these matchups up tomorrow.