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Saga The Foibles and Flaws of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by xezene, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Okay, so I was about to post this in a response to another thread on the Balance of the Force but eventually it ballooned and I just figured it deserved it's own post. Hope you enjoy reading (and before I begin -- no, I do not hate the Jedi, I like them quite a bit. But let's not gloss over their flaws, which are numerous and formidable.). I encourage everyone to feel free to post your own thoughts on this subject.

    The behavior of the Jedi indicates that they are so detached as to be both uncompassionate and unwise. Let's take a look at how they handled Anakin:

    - Anakin is an emotional 9 year old boy in an unknown environment for the first time. The Jedi tell him to his face in their first meeting that he will not be trained, that he's too old, and even on top of that, they chide him for being afraid and for missing his mother. Yoda strongly implies that this will lead him to the dark side, making him evil. All from simply missing his mother. Can you imagine the effect that would have on a 9 year old child? Learning that your natural healthy feelings are not only wrong, but dangerous, and will make you evil. That's encounter #1. Nice start.

    - Moving on, Anakin is treated the same as all the other padawans, even though he came from a radically different environment. Where's the wisdom or compassion in that? His feelings and dreams seem to be almost always dismissed as temporary or unimportant. Yet, isn't he the Chosen One? Shouldn't they take everything he goes through more seriously? Not only that but his mother, who is still in slavery, is not a concern for the Jedi. They got what they want -- Anakin -- so she can just rot. Do the Jedi seem to care about slavery? Or even, just in one instance, Anakin's mother? No. They more or less try to sever that bond. And beyond that, the Jedi live in a literal ivory tower. Lucas can not be more plain with his portrayal of the Jedi here. Not only are they out of touch, but they sew their own downfall by their own emotional ignorance.

    - On the emotional point, denying oneself relationships, close friends, lovers, family -- is this healthy? No. Taking young children from families while they are young to teach them without 'emotional interference'? That's what cults do. Sure, I bet having no other emotional entanglements makes for a more easily discipline-able Jedi -- because the young Jedi have been so indoctrinated into the way of things, they don't even consider another option. This sews the seeds of the long decay of the Jedi Order into detached moralizing. In fact, on the attachment scale, the Jedi consistently show the avoidant attachment style -- an insecure style that is too detached, unhealthy, and should be improved if possible. Anakin himself is ambivalent-preoccupied attachment (another insecure style that the Jedi only make worse). Only Luke and his mother Padme seem to evidence a secure style of forming and maintaining relationships in these films. It's no wonder they carry the key to Anakin's redemption. They are the moral heroes -- not the Jedi.

    - When Anakin first talks to Padme in AOTC, notice something. He tells her all about his feelings and troubles and insecurities. Now, why would he pour all that out to the first person that will listen? I think my question answers itself. The Jedi basically dismiss his feelings because they don't understand. He has no one to talk to about these things. Padme, 10 years ago, was the only one to validate his feelings of missing his mother. And how could the Jedi understand? They are celibate monks who grow up with no strong attachments of any kind. One can only imagine the loneliness, isolation, and confused passion of a young Anakin Skywalker living amongst stoic monks who never had families. When Anakin is starting to have fears of losing his wife, he goes to Yoda for help. What does Yoda say? In essence: get over it, don't mourn for those you lose, don't miss them. Don't have feelings about it. Anakin knows this is impossible and that's the last time he asks anyone for help until Palpatine gives him the Faustian bargain. Does that sound like wise teachings to you? To tell an emotionally intense person to just drop their emotions? Does that sound healthy or even realistic? Or compassionate? Not to me and probably not to any psychologist you ask. It's clear that between ROTS & ANH that Yoda and Obi-Wan have a lot to think about, and Yoda evidences a much stronger connection to the Living Force [as per Qui-Gon] to Luke, encouraging him to start a family and so on. But even they haven't learned everything from their mistakes. They encourage him to not try to help his friends -- leaders of the Rebel Alliance -- from possible death. And why is that? So he can fulfill his mission as a tool for the Jedi. Which leads me to the next big point.

    - And what is Luke's mission? To kill his father. Not to redeem him. To kill him, to murder his father. Now, considering this is a pretty big mission for anyone alive -- to commit patricide -- how do they deliver this news to young Luke? Oh. They don't tell him. That's right, they don't tell him that he's going to kill his father. They call him Darth Vader and make up this story about how Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, so they can get away guilt-free while Luke never realizes the truth. Consider if Luke had actually gone and killed his father. Would they have told him afterwards? I doubt it. I doubt they would have even told him if Vader hadn't. If they did tell him, that might just send Luke right off the edge -- the people he'd cared for and learned from and trusted deceived him to kill his own father, who he admired his whole life and was the catalyst for him even becoming a Jedi in the first place. Sounds like something another person from the Star Wars galaxy would do. Who would that be.... Oh yeah, Palpatine. It sounds like something Palpatine would do. But at least Palpatine would be smart about it, expecting this to send Luke off the edge if he found out -- apparently the Jedi don't even think this through, because if Luke is the last Jedi and he turns to the dark side when he finds out he was just used as a tool by a religious cult to murder his own father, you can kiss your new Jedi Order goodbye. And if they didn't tell him period -- if Luke had just killed his father and they never told him -- that's almost worse. To say this is all morally reprehensible is just the tip of the iceberg. But what would you expect from Jedi who used Anakin to spy on his friend the Chancellor, while simultaneously distrusting him at nearly every opportunity? These people are not healthy people. I wouldn't call this compassionate or wise. This is deluded, with some wisdom sprinkled on top.

    GL weighs in:
    It is a good thing -- and the triumph of ROTJ and the saga -- that Luke's 'unspeakable moment' is his realization of his connection to his father, and his connection to his own shadow, which leads to the redemption of his father. Because the Jedi alternative to this, the old Jedi form of this 'unspeakable moment,' would be Luke killing his own father without knowing. Oops! Turns out our fairy tale ends in patricide. Good thing Luke said 'no' to both the Jedi and the Sith to form his own path. Luke is a hero precisely because he rejects the Jedi's uncompassionate way and the Sith's insane power grabs. He charts his own course and that's why he's the hero and redeems his father. This is the backbone of the whole series that everything leads up to.

    In summary -- the Jedi are far too detached in the prequels, but not only that, they are uncompassionate and unwise (in general, it would seem). They seeded their own fall and lived in a world of secrets, half-truths, and emotional-stuntedness of their own making. I didn't even get into their self-righteous hypocriticalness throughout the prequels (Mace: "We aren't soldiers, we can't fight a war for you." End of movie: Mace and all Jedi lead the war effort). Qui-Gon was probably the wisest of the lot, and it's no wonder Lucas has Qui-Gon instructing both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the dark times between Order 66 and Luke's arrival on the scene. Luke harkens back to that old teaching and the ways the Jedi had lost. He embraces his own shadow, something the Jedi refuse to consider an option (great article on that here that may deserve its own post at a later date). Looking at the prequels, it's hard to see how much easier the Jedi could have made it for Palpatine to corrupt Anakin. They basically did all the legwork, he was just the icing on the cake. Their behavior with Luke in the originals is slightly improved but still flawed. Fortunately Luke charts the new path for himself, one that embraces all the sides of oneself, including compassion. He, and his mother Padme, chart the moral backbone of the series -- not the Jedi Order. The Skywalker line is what brings the balance back to the Force and the galaxy.
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Saw no such indication.

    And how is that a problem?

    They didn't chide anybody.

    Ki-Adi Mundi: "Your thoughts dwell on your mother."
    Anakin: "I miss her."
    Yoda: "Afraid to lose her, I think."
    Anakin: "What does that got to do with anything?"
    Yoda: "Everything. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

    Yoda merely answered Anakin's question. He didn't scold anyone. He made a very wise statement which proved to be correct.

    From being afraid to lose her.

    To face the truth? Not much. Actually, Anakin didn't seem to mind. He was just disappointed.

    Please, let's drop the "social justice warrior" speech. Nobody said his feelings are wrong nor evil. Acting on certain feelings can have dangerous consequences. The Jedi are aware of that fact. The events of the movies prove them to be correct.

    Where's the lack of wisdom or compassion? In what way should he be treated?

    Now Obi-Wan is to blame because he wasn't aware, just like Anakin, that he was having premonitions? And so What? Even if he knew he was having premonitions, he should act on them. Anakin's attachment and inability to let go were what led to his downfall.

    He is the Chosen One. Destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. What does that got to do with his dreams and feelings? When weren't they treated seriously?

    That's right, she isn't. Your point?

    What?! They got what they wanted? Did you watch the movies? Apparently you didn't. Qui-Gon found Anakin. He bargained for his freedom. Shmi wanted Qui-Gon to help him, to give him a better life. The decision to leave Shmi and go to become a Jedi was always on Anakin. The Jedi didn't ask for anything for you to claim they got what they wanted.

    The Jedi's jurisdisction is limited to the Republic and their numbers and resources are even more limited. Why should they divert the few resources they have to go to a lawless planet to free the mother of one of their own? Not only is it a selfish thing to do, but it only helps feed Anakin's problem of attachment.

    Why Anakin's mother in particular? Why are you putting her above everyone else?

    As they should.

    No. The Council's chambers are located in an ivory tower. A tower that's part of the temple, home to the Jedi and a place for meditation.

    I can see ignorance, but not from the Jedi.

    Are the Jedi unhealthy? They seem completely fine to me. And they don't deny friendship or love. They deny acting on them, be influenced and/or clouded by them.


    The option is not to become a Jedi. They Jedi way has its logic. It's a lifetime and selfless commitment.

    Padmé is not bound by anything. Luke put himself and his loved ones in danger because of his attachment. It was Luke's compassion and selflessness that saved Anakin. Two traits the Jedi possess.

    To make the audience aware of his problems.

    That's a baseless claim. The Jedi understand feelings very well. They simply have them controlled. They don't make irrational actions, nor selfish ones. They care for the greater good, not themselves.

    He has Obi-Wan to talk to. In fact, he talks about his feelings with him. And the choice is still on him to remain in the Order.

    Again with the baseless claim that the Jedi don't understand feelings. Feel free to provide a source.

    Which is what Anakin should have done. Let go of everything he fears to lose.

    No, Anakin doesn't know that it's impossible. He simply chose the easier (more seductive) way. Which was provided and exploited by Palpatine.

    Yes, very much so.

    What?! "Encouraging him to start a family"? When did that happen?

    There would have to be mistakes to begin with.

    It's explained in the movie and they are proven right.

    Wrong. Luke was the one who decided to become a Jedi. The Jedi wanted him to save the galaxy.

    They never said he had to murder his father. And they don't tell him because he wasn't ready for it.

    Who are you to say they wouldn't tell him when he finished his training? Luke went to face Vader before he was ready.

    That's what all of this has been: speculation.
  3. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012

    You might want to watch the OT again. Luke is never told to kill Vader. Luke only understands his mission at the end, as do we - the audience.
  4. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Anakin is a 9 year old child for god's sake. Don't you know what emotional intelligence is? It's not enough to just be wise. He just left his mother and is in a totally unknown environment. How do you think a child is going to interpret what Yoda said? And it's very clear that he feels a distance from the Jedi for years after this. That's no accident.

    As he should. He should feel afraid to lose his mother. He's a 9 year old child! If the Jedi had their way he'd feel nothing.

    Not only was Anakin defensive but he glares at Mace notably in the Council chamber. Beyond that, does he really have to show it for us to understand? Again, emotional intelligence here. It's not hard to see the effect it would have on a young emotional boy. It's hardly a surprise he ends up as Vader in this environment.

    I won't even address the first insult, but getting to your point, nobody has to say it. He's a child and we get a clear idea of Anakin's perception on things later on. It's clear he has struggled deeply with the acceptance of his own emotions in relation to the Jedi code. He's never really felt accepted by them and that's begun in the very first encounter. The fact that the Jedi create a self-fulfilling prophecy with Anakin does not make them correct. And even if they are right to take a step back from emotions -- which is sometimes helpful, yes -- they take such a far step back that they may as well be speaking from a different universe. They evidence no emotional sensitivity in the films whatsoever, aside from Obi-Wan's occasional warmth for Anakin and Yoda's occasional warmth with children.

    Perhaps teach him how to express his emotions in a healthy way? Not to just detach himself from them. Perhaps let him occasionally visit his family and friends back home? Perhaps allow him to have some sort of limited attachment to others? Oh, right, it's against the Jedi code. Well, it's easy to see how that worked out for them. A decaying order destroyed by one of their own that they routinely treated with distrust and suspicion. I challenge anyone to watch the films and come away thinking that his relationship to Padme not being accepted by the Jedi wasn't a HUGE part in his fall. What would have happened if they would have accepted him? The Jedi never seem to introspect on this. They are so petrified of the dark side they can't allow any attachments at all lest they go bad. What would you say to a friend who thought like that? It's not healthy.

    It takes only the most cursory glance at the films to realize that Anakin was not emotionally understood by the Jedi, and so he withdraw and started keeping secrets to himself. Why else do you think he would hide it all away? He knows ahead of time he'll get the same advice every time -- detached wisdom with no actual emotional understanding. What experience does Yoda have with having a wife or being afraid to lose her? What about Obi-Wan, does he have experience with having dreams that come true and being called the Chosen One from young? Can you imagine the pressure Anakin has to live up to? Let's all just blame Anakin when it's clear he had no one around him who understood him or could help him in any deep manner, besides Padme and ironically Palpatine. Palpatine actually listens to Anakin without chastising him, no wonder Anakin opens up to him!

    If you can't see the cruelty in being the defenders of justice and not caring about slave mother of your prophecied young hero, I can hardly think that's my issue. It doesn't take a moral crusader to say that the Jedi have the power to save her and don't. The fact that they think Anakin is just going to be able to forget about her shows just how much they don't understand Anakin or his emotions.

    Firstly, Anakin is a 9 year old boy, again, pretty darn young to know what is best for him. He doesn't even know what being a Jedi entails! The fact that Jedi don't lift a finger to go back and save Shmi makes it awfully look like they are just glad they got their Force-powered hero -- who they proceed to send on dangerous missions to help the Jedi cause -- and care very little about going back and freeing her for his benefit. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the last thing on the Council's mind, and that's sadly telling. If that's the case, the Jedi Order deserved to fall.

    Not making an issue of freeing slaves in general is unfortunate but, as you said, excusable for pragmatic reasons. The fact that you call freeing a slave 'selfish' is kind of mind boggling to me. Not only would Shmi's life have been infinitely improved as a free woman, she would have been able to help Anakin more. It is clear I am not making myself clear on the problem of attachment -- the Jedi are wrong-headed in their philosophy regarding attachment. Anakin would likely have been far more stable if he had had consistent, emotionally open relationships in his life, including his mother. To argue otherwise is to argue in the face of all we know about psychology.

    If the Jedi can't realize that having Shmi around might help Anakin out from time to time -- considering he's the Chosen One and his needs should be considered pretty important -- then the Jedi don't have any such wisdom regarding Anakin's emotional life or welfare.

    Frightening and honestly kind of disconcerting that this would be considered a healthy way to deal with this.

    ... My point still stands.

    Source on what? The Jedi find young children and take them from their families to train them as their own. Just because it is state-sanctioned doesn't make it right. All this is mentioned in the Phantom Menace. And if you are asking for a source on whether cults do this or not, my goodness. It happens all the time in our world, even the tiniest bit of research would show that groups take young people and brainwash them all the time.

    Apparently not two Jedi by the name of Obi-Wan and Yoda. As they basically tell him that Vader can't be redeemed and he must be faced. Luke straight-up tells Obi-Wan that he can't kill his own father. Obi-Wan says, "Then the Emperor has already won." Pretty compassionate, eh?

    I just honestly don't agree. I don't think they have much emotional understanding at all. Detached understanding =/= emotional empathy and understanding.

    Okay, listen. You may think that Yoda is right that Anakin needs to let go of attachments. I'm sure the Jedi would love that and, yes, if Anakin didn't have any attachments he wouldn't go to the dark side. Then again he wouldn't really know love in any deep form either, but I digress. Let's say Yoda's right. He should know Anakin better than this to know that his words are not going to work. You have to have empathy for people and understand them emotionally. Nowhere does Yoda validate Anakin's feelings and say, "It's natural to miss people," or, "Who are you afraid to lose? What's going on?" Yoda just tells him some token wisdom you could find out of an old dusty Jedi textbook. No emotional awareness of the situation or how to talk to Anakin in that situation. Even Lucas says, as I quoted him, that Anakin was at least partially Yoda's and Obi-Wan's mistake.

    It was the easy path, yes. But that's because the Jedi made it basically impossible for him to deal with his feelings of loss any other way than to just shut them down and meditate. I hear nothing refreshing, particularly helpful, or new in the Jedi's perspective on this. Of course Palpatine could exploit it, the situation was primed completely by the Jedi and their black-and-white approach to attachments.

    Most psychologists of any discipline would disagree with you.

    Yoda: "The Force is strong in your family. Pass on what you've learned." I'm certainly not the only one -- it seems to be the general perception -- that takes this on face value to mean Yoda is telling Luke to pass it on through his family. Otherwise the first statement is unnecessary and irrelevant.

    The ends do not justify the means. Something apparently most of the Jedi, including especially Mace Windu, seem to totally not understand.

    Right. Obi-Wan lied to him and Yoda misled him as to his father. When asked why he became a Jedi, Luke says, "Mostly because of my father I guess." The Jedi fan that flame by not telling him what really happened. The idea that Luke is a totally informed, completely free agent here is almost totally baseless. Obi-Wan watches him on Tatooine for 20 years, biding his time and waiting to reveal to him the Jedi path. Their plan is eventually revealed in having him go after his father and the Emperor.

    Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
    Obi-Wan: "Then the Emperor has already won."

    Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."
    Luke: "Vader."

    It's all in the films. They want him to take down Vader. Vader and the Emperor want him for themselves. Luke goes against that and creates a third option. Honestly, this seems extremely clear to me, I don't understand how someone could miss this. And the idea that they didn't tell him because he wasn't ready... yeah. That's sounds like an easy justification to make; rather than have Luke decide whether he's ready for it or not, just don't tell him. Their plan is to use Luke as a tool to take down Palpatine and Vader; the fact that Vader is Luke's father is of little importance to them apparently.

    Considering that when faced with the truth, Yoda prefers to die rather than tell Luke, and considering that when faced with the truth, Obi-Wan proceeds to further back up his lie by saying it's 'from a certain point of view,' I think I can feel secure in saying that they weren't planning on telling Luke any time soon, if ever.

    Everything I'm talking about is in the films. It's all right there.
  5. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 29, 2015
    Jedi being forbidden to love/fear/etc is just stupid... and is best ignored or taken less than seriously.
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    They're not forbidden to love. They're encouraged to love, but compassionately. Not selfishly. They're taught to let go of their fears, instead of embracing them.

    Empathy wasn't want Anakin wanted. He wanted Yoda to tell him that the Force can stop people from dying. He couldn't, because it wasn't possible. Palpatine told him what he wanted to hear. And even Lucas said that attachments are the problem. That a Jedi must learn to let go of the things that they are afraid to lose. Showing empathy isn't going to do anything to stop him from being afraid. He had to train himself to let go of his fears. Anyone who has dealt with fear of loss has had to learn to deal with that fear. They had to mentally prepare themselves for the worst. I've went through it with my stepfather, my brother and my grandparents. I didn't live in a constant state of fear and I was not willing to sell my soul to the devil to ensure that they would.

    He's telling Luke to pass on his knowledge to his sister, but dies before he can explain that. Obi-wan has to finish what he started. And as we know from TFA, Luke trained Jedi who weren't family except for one person who developed an attachment to his grandfather.

    YODA: "Unexpected this is and unfortunate."

    LUKE: "Unfortunate that I know the truth."

    YODA: "No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden, were you."

    They didn't tell him because he was not ready to hear that his father was alive and evil. He needed to learn about the Force first, before he could learn the truth. Would you want to learn that without understanding why? Wouldn't you be afraid to train as a Jedi, knowing that you could wind up like dear old dad? Luke needed to learn about the Force and the dark side, first. He is better able to handle the information because he had been trained to understand the light and the dark. Yoda doesn't prefer to die than to tell Luke. He is reluctant to tell him because it was his choice to not tell Luke earlier and would rather Obi-wan tell him. As to Obi-wan saying "from a certain point of view", is the way both the Jedi and the Sith view the dark side. Yoda stated that Anakin was gone, consumed by Vader. Palpatine stops calling Anakin by his real name and only refers to him as Vader. Both Sith Lords refer to Anakin as a separate person multiple times. Obi-wan never calls him Vader in ROTS, but doesn't call him Anakin in ANH.

    So that is more than valid.
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    I would say that learning how to handle one's emotions in a healthy way was the point, and when emotions are "intense," that often means detaching in order to function in society. That is true for all of us, and would be especially true for a Force-sensitive.

    "Compassion" does not always equal "granting the ability to express every emotion one has whenever one has them." In fact, it often does not. It means sympathizing with the person who feels those emotions but I did not see the Jedi doing any differently.
  8. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Some interesting points, Darth Sinister. Here's a couple thoughts.

    Here's my take on this. I think Anakin sort of made that deal with the devil in AOTC because he blamed himself for not saving his mother in time. Again, I'm not excusing Anakin here, he is the one who made the choice. But there are reasons and factors for that choice. He would never have blamed himself for breaking his promise to come and free his mom if he had been allowed to see her, or even free her with the Jedi's help. It wouldn't have taken much. All of those things would have helped Anakin. Instead, he went off to save his mother -- a good thing, I reckon -- and was unlucky enough that he could not. If he had saved her in time, he would have been a hero, though the Jedi wouldn't have seen it that way. He is quoted as saying in an AOTC deleted scene, "Home was always where my mom was." After 10 years with the Jedi, he still considers her the closest he has to home. When he loses that, he feels a powerlessness and hopelessness he never wants to feel again, so he makes that vow to stop death.

    But I think empathy and understanding could really have helped him loads after this. I mean, there are 3 years after AOTC before his fall, and he is off around the galaxy in lots of battles. That's great and all, but it would have been amazingly helpful if the Jedi would have been there for him emotionally and let him rest up, given him an ear and a place to express his emotions. To do all this much more than they seemed to. I am almost certain that would have helped because Anakin never leaves the early stages of grief, he stays stuck in anger. If he had been encouraged to feel the sadness and grief, to pay his respects, to have his relationships openly and honestly in the world, I think he would have been much better off in ROTS. Yoda's lack of empathy or emotional awareness is just a symptom of the trend Anakin's faced with the Jedi from the start. It's after all this that Anakin turns to Palpatine's offer. There's a difference between knowing the right thing intellectually, and knowing it in your heart. Often times Anakin had his heart in the right place, and intellectually he knew what was up. I just think he needed a master and an environment more conducive to his temperament, because Anakin's fall begins way back in AOTC and it doesn't seem like being in the Jedi environment has helped him move past his feelings any more than before. He just applies his old thinking to Padme in the new situation. I honestly think Qui-Gon may have been better able to handle Anakin.

    There are many ways to read Yoda's statement, and I'm not alone in having the straightforward interpretation, given from the way Yoda expresses that and in the order that he reveals it to Luke, that Yoda is encouraging Luke to pass things on to his family and to break with the old ways. I always read that as Yoda maturing and realizing his mistakes of the old order. In fact I remember Lucas saying something to the effect that much of Yoda's journey after ROTS is realizing where the Jedi went wrong in the prequels, and attempting to change that. It would seem that most if not all of the EU writers from the 90s & early 00s interpreted it as Luke being allowed to have kids. And even if Yoda doesn't mean this, the fact that he and Obi-Wan don't stress the whole celibacy thing more than they do implies they don't consider it the most important thing. Plus, Luke defies Yoda and Obi-Wan at least twice, even if they disagreed with him I wouldn't mind seeing Luke defy them again, because Luke seems to be wiser and make better choices in the end.

    As for Yoda preferring to die, when Luke asks about his father, Yoda says he must rest. In this context it has already been established that 'rest' = 'death.' It's only when Luke stresses the point that Yoda admits it is true. As for the certain point of view bit, yeah, I would say that both Sith and Jedi are deluded if they think that new identities obliterate or replace old ones. Luke's wisdom goes beyond that. I agree that the subject needed care to explain to Luke, but honestly the fact that they told him some other story instead, or at least in Yoda's case heavily implied it by omission, is consistent with the other Jedi behaviors -- when faced with a difficult emotional situation, simply avoid it all together or get rid of it. Shun attachments because it could get complicated and you might get greedy. Don't tell Luke because he might not want to be a Jedi anymore. Honestly, I think it would be far safer for them to tell Luke than for Vader to tell Luke. The fact that they are surprised by Vader telling Luke shows again how little they understood Anakin. [As for the bit about love being compassion and that Jedi are encouraged to love, it always seemed clear to me and to others I know that Anakin was clearly bending the truth there a bit to allow himself to be with Padme. The Jedi are encouraged to be compassionate, sure, but to a very limited point. They are essentially monks, after all.]
  9. quinlan solo

    quinlan solo Jedi Knight

    Nov 28, 2012

    Just out of curiosity, where did Lucas say this? Was it in an interview, audio commentary, or what?
  10. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016

    I have the audio recording of it. As far as I know it is from "From Star Wars to Jedi."
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  11. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    You say it's in all the films, that they want him to take down his father but he is told only that he must confront Vader,

    Luke: "I can't kill my own father."
    Obi-Wan: "Then the Emperor has already won."

    It is his inability to face Vader, but rather to cling on to the ideal of 'father' that Obi-Wan is referring to here, and it is when Vader will not act like 'father' that Luke reacts with anger and hatred.It is once he stops thinking about how he can change Vader and instead looks to himself that he succeeds.

    Why do you think this is a "third way" when what Luke says is "I am a Jedi" and further emphasises this with "like my father before me". Not...'I am a new kind of Jedi..'
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  12. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016

    I'm actually stunned by your take on the films, but I will reply as best as I can. :p In that conversation, Obi-Wan states that Vader is more machine than man, twisted and evil. It's clear that both Yoda and Obi-Wan don't think he is redeemable. I would argue this is almost incontrovertible given how direct ESB and ROTJ is about this. It is heavily implied that they want Luke to kill his father. Luke correctly perceives this, and points out that he can't kill his own father -- twice, no less. The first time, Obi-Wan tells him it's his destiny. When Luke again refuses the idea of killing his father, Obi-Wan relents to hopelessness, saying the Emperor has already won. It's literally in the sentences they say to each other: if Luke doesn't kill his father, the Emperor has already won. I don't see any suggestions from Obi-Wan or Yoda on how to redeem Vader. They believe Anakin is unredeemable, which makes sense given that that is the Jedi teaching on the subject.

    Luke's success is not in his rage to defeat Vader upon Vader 'not acting like a father.' There is no indication that Luke expected Vader to act like a father to him. There is every indication that Luke thought it would be a struggle and attempted to draw on Vader's light side. Luke never stops thinking that he can change Vader. When he loses his cool, he realizes he is becoming his father, and at this point Luke has his moment of enlightenment. He throws away the lightsaber, casting aside the violence of the dark side, but embracing the light and the dark of his father. That is the power of his statement, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." He sees the full view, the good and bad, and that is his new definition of Jedi. Luke also has older psychological reasons for connecting himself to his father, but overall his insight is a new one. He is willing to die with integrity, embracing all of life, all of himself, all of his father (Neo has a similar moment in relation to the universe in the first Matrix).

    Luke looks to Vader in his dying moments and appeals to him to save him. It is only in this appeal and steadfast devotion to a larger notion of Anakin Skywalker that Vader realizes this is his moment of redemption. No one has really believed in Anakin to that extent as Luke had. Beyond that, Luke himself provides a living embodiment of the rejection of the Jedi and Sith dichotomy by providing a third path; Luke uses the dark side to cut off Vader's hand, but he returns to the light and a larger, balanced view of things in a moment of realization. This is never implied to be possible either in previous Jedi or Sith teachings. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master."/"You, like your father, are now mine." Luke rejects both and his whole existence is a walking embodiment of a third way, a new way, one of balance. This is not only in the subtext of the films but in the symbolism and clothing -- basically everything to do with Luke in ROTJ. He's not only the balance between light and dark, but he's the balance between his father and mother, between the new and old. It is because he finds a third way, a higher way, that he redeems his father and he charts a new path of awakening for the future of the galaxy. I know these films are open to interpretation, but honestly, my feeling is that if you miss this point of the films, you have fundamentally misunderstood the point of them. /my two cents.
  13. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 27, 2015
    The Jedi didn't want to train Anakin because they were worried about the fear he possessed and that it would lead him to the dark side. He was trained anyway... and the fear he possessed lead him to the dark side. They were absolutely correct in those fears. Could they have expressed it more sympathetically? Possibly. But they were still right, when it came down to it.
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  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Of course he blames himself. Though he also foists the blame on Obi-wan for holding him back, not doing a better job making him a Jedi. But that is just anger and frustration talking. Deep down, though he is reluctant to admit it, it is his fault. But only in the sense that he didn't train as hard as he should have in the first place. But even if he had done that. Even if he had taken his studies seriously, he probably would have the same trouble figuring out that she was in danger. Anakin's failure is that he carries the weight of the world on his shoulders in thinking that he has to fix all of the problems.

    Anakin had an empathetic ear in Padme and Palpatine. He didn't want to talk to Obi-wan because he blames him for his failures. But you also have to remember, Anakin chose to keep his feelings to himself. That's why Obi-wan turned to Padme to help Anakin and he was keeping things from her. His problem was that he didn't want to face the truth; that all people die and you cannot stop it.

    The Jedi weren't celibate according to Lucas. They could go out and have relations with someone, but they cannot intentionally start a family. This is why Qui-gon asked Shmi who was Anakin's father. He was assuming that it was someone who did that very thing. This is also why some people are thinking that
    Rey is Obi-wan's granddaughter rather than Luke's child.

    As I said, it was Yoda telling Luke that he had to train other Jedi and that would include his sister.

    Rest doesn't mean death. He's trying to avoid telling him and trying to conserve his strength. The more he talks, the weaker he becomes which is apparent.

    They're not deluded, because even Luke says, "Then my father is truly dead." So what it is is that there is a rebirth of sorts. Shedding the past and forging a new identity. It is like with comic books superheroes. Superman was originally written as seeing himself as Kal-El/Superman/Superboy first and Clark Kent was the disguise. Then he was written as seeing Clark Kent as who he is, Kal-El is his Kryptonian name and Superman is a costume and an ideal. Batman is the same way. Bruce Wayne sees himself as Batman and Bruce Wayne is but a mask that puts forward.

    So it goes with the Sith. Dooku only uses his name around those who don't know that he is Darth Tyranus. Palpatine even calls him that when they're conversing in their Sith identities. But when it came to Anakin, the idea was that the good man that he was was destroyed by Vader. That he was no longer there. It isn't that Luke has greater wisdom, but rather that he believes that Anakin still exists inside of him. He senses what Obi-wan couldn't and that is because Luke isn't as bothered and hurt by his father's actions as Obi-wan was. And Vader does not hold any animosity towards Luke as he did towards Obi-wan.

    They're surprised that Vader would admit it is something that even Vader himself is surprised at, which is that he would admit to the truth. Though Vader intended it as a jab against Obi-wan. Even Vader is quite defensive at acknowledging who he was, when Luke says his real name.

    As to Anakin, he wasn't bending the truth. As Lucas said, they are not celibate. They are encouraged to love, compassionately. Not selfishly.
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  15. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012

    What I will say,first off, is that the take you have of Luke's journey(the OT) is an example of what I have spoken of on other threads; it is driven by the narratives of the PT - as is the whole notion of the Jedi rejecting love and any form of attachment and emotion.

    You say that "In that conversation, Obi-Wan states that Vader is more machine than man, twisted and evil. It's clear that both Yoda and Obi-Wan don't think he is redeemable."...perhaps they do, but that is irrelevant because Luke's journey and training isn't about's about Luke. That is what he understands at the end; his true enemy isn't Vader 'out there' it is the Vader 'in here' (points to heart). That is why Luke, at the moment of his epiphany (looking from Vader's mechanical hand to his own) proclaims then that he is a Jedi - that is why he had to confront Vader, in the same way he was supposed to confront him in the cave on Dagobah. He is confronting himself. Up to that point he, like the audience, believes his mission is to do with isn't. To emphasise this he declares that he is a Jedi like his father before him (ie he acknowledges what the Jedi have actually been training him to do, to be - you remember all that "don't give in to anger" "when you are calm, at peace, you will know"...and why his confronting Vader in the cave at Dagobah was a failure?).

    "Luke's success is not in his rage to defeat Vader upon Vader 'not acting like a father.'"

    I is, in fact, what draws him to the dark side.....hence Obi-Wan's warning.

    "There is no indication that Luke expected Vader to act like a father to him."

    Really? "I won't fight you father" and "Your thoughts betray you father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.." and then..."You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't think you'll destroy me now." - shortly before Vader hurls his lightsabre at Luke. see no reason to think Luke thinks he is facing his father and not Vader? That his expectation is that he is confronting his father? How many times would he need to say "father" before you figured that's who he thinks he's dealing with?

    "Luke looks to Vader in his dying moments and appeals to him to save him."

    Luke is screaming out in agony. That is hope, not faith. The non-religious will often shout out 'Oh God' in moments of doesn't mean they have faith in the almighty.

    "Luke never stops thinking that he can change Vader." while he was hacking away at dear old Pa,it was simply to knock some sense into him? This whole idea that he is thinking about Vader is entirely driven by the narrative of the PT...that it is all about Vader's redemption. Full stop. Luke's epiphany has nothing to do with what Vader will do is about Luke.

    "Beyond that, Luke himself provides a living embodiment of the rejection of the Jedi and Sith dichotomy by providing a third path" and "He throws away the lightsaber, casting aside the violence of the dark side, but embracing the light and the dark of his father." are,imo, grotesque misunderstandings of Luke's actions here. I doesn't even make any sense with what he says. Let me remind you;

    "Never! I'll never turn to the darkside.You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me"

    It doesn't get much more explicit than that. He rejects the darkside, rejects becoming what his father became...and what he can now see is a potential within himself and embraces the lessons, which he now understands, of the Jedi.

    And this notion is the result of Lucas re-writing the saga to be all about Vader. The OT was about Luke's journey, his father's redemption was as a result of Luke's journey (as was Han's arc) - it wasn't the focus of the OT, or of ROTJ. Let me expand the title of the film ...Return of the Jedi. Not...'A third Way', not 'A New Jedi' but...Return of the Jedi.

    Finally, to try and emphasise how much this original story was about Luke,and not Vader; from the script

    Luke looks at his father's mechanical hand, then to his own mechanical, black-gloved hand, and realizes how much he is becoming like his father. He makes the decision for which he has spent a lifetime in preparation. Luke steps back and hurls his lightsaber away.
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    That doesn't mean that Luke doesn't have faith in his father to do the right thing. Faith is defined as having confidence and trust in a person or thing. Hope is defined as having a feeling of expectation and a desire for something to happen, a feeling of trust. Both feature trust as a component of faith and hope.

    And as I've told you before, there is more than one story going on here. There is Anakin's story and Luke's story. The former's story did not end in ROTS. It carried over into the OT. The ST is still Anakin's story despite his being dead because it all goes back to what he did. But it is also Luke's story as well as being Rey's story and Ben's story. Luke's story isn't undermined. The OT is still his story. But it is also his father's story.

    "It's a downer, the saving grace is that if you watch the other three movies, then you know everything ends happily ever after. Nevertheless, I now have to make a movie that works by itself but which also works with this six-hour movie and this overall twelve-hour movie. I'll have two six-hour trilogies, and the two will beat against each other: One's the fall, one's the redemption. They have different tonalities but it's meant to be one experience of twelve hours."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 62

    And now we know there's a third chapter, which is the legacy.
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  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Given the context (yes, context really is everything) it should be clear I am using the word hope as a negative delimitation of the idea of faith - as in hoping against hope, as in 'we can only hope that...'. As in, an atheist exclaiming 'oh god!'. Let me give you an example; if we are watching a scene where an interrogation is taking place and the victim cries 'Oh god,please no' you think that is a moment of faith in the interrogator's innate sense of compassion? No, it clearly isn't. So...why here is someone being tortured to their death screaming out in pain a declaration of faith?

    I'll tell you why.....

    You are here misrepresenting my position as if I am delimiting the narrative. The OT, ROTJ were not about Vader. They were about Luke, primarily. It is the insistence of Lucas that the earlier movies are supposed to be part of a saga about Vader which obscures that these movies don't revolve around that character; which is why those scenes are difficult for some to see without the expectation that it is Vader's redemption that is the driving force of them. Vader's redemption was, originally, peripheral to Luke's journey. Vader's redemption is as a result of, a consequence of, Luke's journey - not the driving force of the story.

    And hence, a torture victim's screams for mercy become faith, instead of hoping against hope.
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader's not torturing Luke. Anyway, that doesn't mean that Luke doesn't have faith in his father, just because he's yelling, "Father, please, help me!". That's not a declaration of faith. A declaration of faith is, "I know there is good in him."

    Actually, you are delimiting. You feel that Lucas cannot and/or should not make the backstory be more inclusive of the second story, just because you don't like the PT. You feel that two separate narratives cannot be the focus of this story, that it has to be one or the other. Yet, there is plenty of fiction out there where something similar has occurred. That two separate narrative stories can come together and that one informs upon the other, but does not diminish each other. Do you not agree that Luke's story is carrying over into TFA, even though the focus is on Ben and Rey? Or Anakin's story?
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  19. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    'doesn't mean he can't also have faith' is somewhat of a different (one might say weaker) argument than 'is a declaration of his faith'.Let us look at what was originally argued;

    "Luke looks to Vader in his dying moments and appeals to him to save him..........No one has really believed in Anakin to that extent as Luke had."

    ie..the argument is that this is a signal of Luke's ongoing faith in Anakin. Arguing that someone crying out, hoping against hope doesn't necessarily mean all faith is gone is is both a very different argument and...also pretty meaningless. To return to the example of a torture victim - faith in another's compassion is simply not an aspect of crying out. One might as well argue that, for example, just because we see Obi-Wan as a Force ghost it can't also be true that Obi-Wan is physically alive is, simply and plainly, a non-argument.

    And, again,you are misrepresenting my position. It's not a matter of whether Lucas should or can (a very pejoratively 'tribal' proposition...) it is about what the narrative actually was when the movies were originally made. And it is precisely because of Lucas' insistence that this is about Vader that the narrative focus upon Luke's journey is obliterated. You say that my position is such that "You feel that two separate narratives cannot be the focus of this story" whereas it is clear from both the OP's and your own arguments that you see only Vader as the driving force of the narrative, completely oblivious to Luke's own journey; his actions are described by you as being relevant only in terms of Anakin/Vader. I am not arguing that Anakin/Vader does not have a narrative within this, he does.....but you insist (as Lucas' claims demand) that Luke's narrative is derived from Anakin's, that it only has value because of him.

    Anakin/Vader's redemption narrative here is a reaction to is not what drives Luke. Vader's redemption is a consequence of Luke's actions, not their aim.

    So...tell me again how I am delimiting the story.
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  20. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Some interesting points. It is clear our perspectives simply differ in regards to these movies, so I will not take the time to respond to everything. However I do want to point out that, while Luke is screaming in agony, he calls out to his father to save him. Not only would I consider that 'an appeal' to his father, as it is explicitly an appeal to his father's good side, but it is instrumental to the movie. To overlook this would be in grave error if one is to understand Luke's & Vader's perspective. And your analogy to the nonreligious doesn't fit here, of calling 'oh god' to an unseen entity they don't believe in 'out of stress' -- Luke is literally appealing to his father, who is in the same room as him and who Luke has spent the whole movie trying to redeem.

    Luke's epiphany has everything to do with himself and his own shadow. Lucas is a follower of Campbell and Jung and he directly alludes to the Jungian concept of the shadow throughout the films; the cave has everything to do with this. The shadow is what can give you energy and strength but can corrupt you. A psychologically whole person is in touch with their shadow, while a less whole person simply suppresses or avoids it. Most of the actions and philosophies of the Jedi in the prequels can be read directly as suppressing or avoiding their own shadow (this results in the shadow taking on a life of its own and growing undetected, in Palpatine and Anakin/Vader); in the originals, Yoda spends more time with Luke encouraging him to meet his shadow and, as you said, 'confront it' [ie. confront himself] but as we see, the shadow is personified in Vader. I agree that ROTJ is Luke's movie, not Vader's, and so Luke's epiphany is in relation to his father in so far as it is in relation to his own shadow. This is what I mean when I say that Luke embraces all sides of himself, and by extension, his father. What you reject internally, you reject externally; equally, what you accept internally, you often accept externally. When Luke has his 'revelation' of the shadow within himself taking over, he realizes he is turning into Vader [the shadow projection; a man dominated by his shadow]. Finally Luke understands, and throws away his lightsaber. He has had his enlightenment, so to speak, and he now see things clearly. He has faced the shadow and recognized himself. This is the key to psychological individuation. In this sense Luke becomes the healthiest character in the saga that we've seen. By his own example of rejecting the dark side, Vader has a living example in front of him of someone who has stepped into the dark but has emerged a stronger person, beyond simple light and dark. Luke is not suppressing his shadow like the Jedi of old, nor is he being dominated by it like the Sith. He sees himself in the shadow and grows beyond anything Vader has ever heard of. I would imagine that given Vader's life story that has quite an impact on him. The following scenes amply demonstrate this point.

    Above, I explain my thinking on some of this. Luke takes a stand in the end after his realization, and he takes this stand for himself. Like many other groups throughout history, he takes on an old term and applies it to himself in a new setting, making it his own. Luke has, in essence, done a very impressive thing here; he has discovered for himself what it means to be a Jedi. Normally there would be extensive training and this is what brought about stagnancy in the Order, just as in the real world; when it is transmitted so much in an institution, with rules and traditions, it starts to lose its original meaning. People don't connect to the real meaning of it, they don't understand it for themselves; in these movies this is demonstrated as the Jedi losing the connecting with the Living Force. Luke cannot possibly know all the ins and outs of Jedihood, but he understands for himself, through his own realization, that this must be the realization; his questions vanish, and he realizes he is there. On top of this he makes the statement that he is a Jedi, in a sense promoting that term to his new realization, while at the same time emphasizing to Palpatine that he recognizes his father as his father, the Jedi Anakin Skywalker -- not Vader. Basically, Luke is telling Palpatine that he doesn't buy what he is selling, for Vader or for himself. While yes, Luke rejects the dark side, rejects what his father became, he -- as you said -- fully realizes the true lessons of things, and this leads him to an enlarged understand of the dark side and the light; of his father and himself. This is not a 'grotesque misreading,' as I've seen the movies hundreds of times, I need not be reminded of the events in the film. This is exactly the point of the movie; Luke realizes for himself his own full Jedihood, and it's enlightenment goes beyond all that Vader has ever seen before, prompting him in compassion to save his son, realizing there is still hope for himself. It's a beautiful story, and it's much deeper than most people give it credit for.
  21. xezene

    xezene Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 6, 2016
    Interesting thoughts, Darth Sinister. I will say that I took in most of your comments, not necessarily in total opposition to mine, but as related good points on why Anakin is also flawed -- Anakin does, as you say, clearly have issues and this leads him to the dark side.

    Immediately prior to this in the conversation, Yoda essentially tells Luke he's dying. Luke says he can't die. Yoda says, basically, sorry, I have to, no choice. Considering how quickly Yoda dies during the conversation, I have to think that if Yoda just rolled over and said he had to 'rest' to ignore Luke's question about his father being Vader, Yoda would have died before the day was through, probably within a few minutes, and Luke wouldn't have found anything out from Yoda. I can understand Yoda's hesitation. Like Obi-Wan he's obviously got a lot of regrets about this whole thing with Anakin and he doesn't want Luke to get involved with that, even though he knows he has to. Yoda is never really straightforward about anything, that's his personality, but I think in this case he's even more circumspect on revealing stuff to Luke about his father. One gets the impression that Jedi have a dog in this fight [Luke] but that honestly they are just so worn out from it all. Obi-Wan is a little bit more direct about what Luke's mission entails, although, like Yoda, doesn't tell Luke the whole truth about Vader until he absolutely has to, and even then he doesn't exactly apologize for lying either. He explains it as a 'certain point of view' which eventually is good enough to dissipate Luke's anger at him for the deception. Though I have to wonder how Yoda and Obi-Wan could keep running from the truth when they themselves survive death as Force ghosts... oh well, I guess they can always just go *poof* if they face any questions too difficult. :p

    I should say that, as a separate point, on a recent rewatch I realized just how subtly the Jedi tie in the fight against Vader with the fight against the Emperor. Nowhere before this have we seen Luke take even the tiniest of interest in fighting the Emperor, and he shows next to no interest in fighting him in the Death Star II either. At that point Luke's mission seems clear: redeem my father, or die trying. 'Kill the Emperor' doesn't fit into that plan, and Luke refuses to, even going so far as to throw his lightsaber away [I always though that was kind of cool... the pinnacle of a hero's journey resulting in, not tired and beaten-down pacifism, but ethically strong pacifism. Unique. Go Luke!]. Luke is just interested in Vader and he seems to consider the destruction of the Emperor something the Rebels will take care of in destroying the Death Star II because it's their fight. So you can see how Obi-Wan and Yoda are trying to get Luke to, as Lucas says, 'rectify their mistakes' in Vader and the Emperor. Surprise for them when Luke comes up with an alternative no one thought of. Again, go Luke!

    I... guess. I mean, that's hard to really buy, that someone could just 'forge a new identity' to get rid of their old one. Wouldn't it just be a new skin over old flesh? Regardless, you do have a point -- life is always changing, and the consistency of identity is largely an illusion, so I suppose it's not outside the realm of reasonability to recognize yourself as something new in a new setting.

    As for Luke's comment there, I always took that as Luke sort of trying to land a blow on Vader. Luke knows Vader has Anakin inside him still, but he is committed to this notion far deeper than just 'oh I guess I'll try to find the good in him' -- Luke is willing to die for this belief in his father. So when Luke says this to Vader, it is almost a provocation, and it works -- just after Luke says it, we can clearly see that Luke's words have hit Vader hard. Luke is expressing to him; you are Anakin Skywalker, my father; you don't get to be both my father and Darth Vader only, I won't accept that and I refuse that. So we can also see a bit of Luke's psychology coming through there too. It's multilayered.

    I would certainly say Anakin was bending the truth because he gets married to Padme under this belief, lol. Clearly against the Jedi code. Anakin may be saying the right words but he is dancing to different music. And I think he knows he's doing this, he knows he's playing the edge -- you can see it on his face that he's working his way towards this conclusion, which is half-Jedi thinking and half-pickup line for Padme. I would hardly expect Yoda or Mace to say things like 'we are encouraged to love,' and certainly not in the manner that Anakin expresses it. That might be too emotionally strong for them, I would say. Jedi are allowed one-night stands, but no loving or committed relationships -- doesn't that sound a bit screwy? At least it does to me, but that's just my opinion. Clearly Anakin and most of the Jedi from the post-ROTJ EU agree with me. :p
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm not saying that hope isn't there, but so is faith. Why is that so hard to accept?

    The thing is that the idea of redeeming a Jedi turned Sith was part of the story in the first draft of ANH. Yes, it did take a back seat until Lucas began work on TESB and after the Brackett draft was completed and rejected. And in that first draft, it was only a consequence of Annikin Starkiller's nobility and the evils of the Empire coming to light that Valorum changed his beliefs. But by the time Lucas started working the next couple of films, the idea that Luke Skywalker needing to redeem Darth Vader started to come about. So the idea was there, somewhat from the beginning, but had been there way before he said that these films were about Anakin first and Luke and the others second.

    In ROTJ, it is what drives Luke. It is why he chooses to turn himself in to Vader, so that he can bring him back to the good side. Since TESB, the Jedi Masters were about preparing Luke for a confrontation with Vader and Palpatine.

    Obi-wan's use of point of view goes back to what Qui-gon had taught him and Dooku had taught him before that. A reality that the Jedi have learned, as have the Sith, is that there are points of view for everyone. And the points of view don't always mesh up. That's why you need something like recorded evidence that cannot be disputed. Obi-wan doesn't apologize for lying to Luke because he didn't exactly lie to him. He told him that Anakin was betrayed and murdered by Vader, which was true in that Anakin was done in by his own greed and lust for power. Obi-wan and Yoda don't run from the truth.

    That's why we see Anakin put into the suit with all the fresh burns and scars. It is a very symbolic, but also literal, new skin over old flesh.

    Right. Your identity is what you make it. Take another fictional instance, in "Highlander", Connor MacLeod changed his name many times since the mid 18th century. Even though he's still Connor, he has no problem using new names to forge a secret identity of sort. Whereas his kinsman Duncan MacLeod prefers to use his birth name because he grew up seeing himself as Duncan and even despite being disowned by his father, he kept the name because that is who he is deep down in his core. It is that way even for adopted people in the real world. Some will stay with their given name even after finding out what their biological parents last names were. They feel quite strongly that their identity that they grew up on is far more important than what was intended, or could have been.

    It is, but that Luke says that at all shows that even he is capable of acknowledging it.
  23. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    And what I said was, that's as meaningful as saying Obi-Wan might still exist in physical form somewhere; the original argument made here was that Luke 'calling out' to his father showed his faith in Anakin - that's very different from 'although its not shown, that doesn't mean it can't be true'

    Again you seem to be misrepresenting my point. At no point am I arguing that Anakin/Vader isn't redeemed. However you use a strange turn of phrase to suggest that Luke's actions are all about Anakin....which isn't actually what your argument supports. You say that; "...the idea that Luke Skywalker needing to redeem Darth Vader started to come about."

    Now, what you said about the earlier drafts had nothing to do with somebody having to redeem somebody else, only that a former Jedi was redeemed. That Vader was redeemed does not require that Luke is acting for that purpose; the story was not about Vader/Anakin, it was primarily about Luke's journey...Anakin's redemption was a peripheral consequence of Luke's actions, not their aim. Much as it transpired in the earlier draft, in fact, that; " was only a consequence of Annikin Starkiller's nobility and the evils of the Empire coming to light that Valorum changed his beliefs." That draft was not primarily about Valorum. Who was it about?
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Then what the hell are we arguing?

    I didn't say that you didn't think that Vader was redeemed. I said that the idea of it wasn't something out of the blue. That it goes back to what Lucas started in the beginning with his first draft. Just because it didn't appear to be an issue when the final versions of ANH and TESB were made, doesn't mean it was part of what Lucas had in mind. That was what I had interpreted what you had said. Now, as to it being Luke's journey, I have never said that Luke's journey wasn't about his becoming a Jedi. But his motivations in going to confront Vader was that he was setting out to save his father. It wasn't a consequence of his journey, but part of it. The Jedi had the goal of having them face off, so that Luke could become a Jedi by killing ihm and Luke wasn't interested in that. He was interested in trying to save his father, not kill him. He wasn't fussed about becoming a Jedi anymore, it was at the very bottom of the totem pole of what was important to him. He was no longer interested in what he wanted, but what he felt his father needed.
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  25. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 7, 2015
    I like how it is put that theyre detached but not uncompassionate. That really sums up the Jedi Council. They care but they dont seem to show it, which is a major flaw when youre dealing with children that you've taken from their families.... And yes it's ridiculous they never made a rescue or tried to bargain to get Shmi, which they couldve easily done but I guess the politics stopped them because if they free 1 slave, they have to free them all or something stupid. Plus the Sith were uprising and the Seperatists were a huge threat so I suppose they let this slide past them. And I totally agree, the reason why Anakin was so awkward was because he was emotionally unstable and understandably so since he came from a life of slavery, and he was taught not to show emotions. It explains why right when he sees Padme he cant help but to compliment her immediately. Luke is what the Jedi should have been ALL ALONG. He does agressive things when needed but does not let it consume him. He doesnt cut out aggressive actions like the Jedi would do, as in force choking, but instead he would do them but contain them. He believed that Anakin was still there and not completely consumed by Darth Vader. And Qui-Gon is very similar to Luke it seems. Qui-Gon showed up Yoda and Obi-Wan who questioned him on the training of Anakin. And Yoda and Obi-Wan would later be proven wrong about Anakin not being consumed by Vader all the way. At the end of Episode 6, Obi-Wan and Yoda have finally realized their mistakes as I'm sure other Jedi also did even though they passed on. The Jedi Council, I like them, I like what they stand for as in NOT BEING SELFISH and SERVING others but when it comes to teaching and molding a Jedi, it was a flawed way with flawed rules. No one can function without love, not even a Jedi. Attachment, sure it could lead to jealousy but you need attachment to people with love and relationships or else you'll become detached from emotions just like the Jedi... and then BOOM, Anakin turns to the dark side.