Saga The Force and its plans for the Chosen One, Skywalkers (and offspring!) n' Rey

Nobody in the ST era has said that their ability to use the Force has diminished like Mace did in the PT, if anything I think Rey's Force awakening (and, hey, maybe even Broomboy) demonstrates that Force powers are on a different post-death-of-the-Sith scale. So even though the galaxy has been rid of the Sith and their dampening of the Force, it doesn't mean that there won't be darkness and thereby light rising to meet it.

 

It was never about ridding the galaxy of evil. It was very specifically ridding the galaxy of the evil of the Sith who put the Force out of balance. The specific Sith being Darth Sidious and his apprentice Darth Vader. Evil didn't end when they were gone.

 

Pretty much.

This I disagree with. The force wanted to get rid of the Sith in general, not just Sidious.

The Sith have been causing corruption for deacdes more than any form of evil in the galaxy and their existence was the reason for the imbalance which is why there was an ancient prophacy that promised their end.

 

It's unwise to define the imbalance as being created by the Sith. What then created the Sith? The imbalance?

And so on.

The question is not if you have balance. It's how you achieve and maintain it.

 

That's what the story says so fighting that does no good. All we can go by is what happened this time. If the Force ever went out of balance before or after that is an entirely other story of another time.

It's the Sith's actions that matter not that they were created. The Sith were around for thousands of years and never put the Force out of balance before. Their mere existence is not an issue. It the specific actions of these Sith whose decisions caused the Force to go out of balance.

Yes. After ROTJ the Force is once again in balance. That was achieved by the Chosen One. The follow-up story is about maintaining it because since it happened once it could happen again. Now the chances of that are slim to say the least but it could still happen.

There are no Sith in general though. There really is only Sidious and whoever his apprentice is at the time. Maul, Tyrannus and Vader.

The Sith were around for thousands of year and the Force wasn't trying to "get rid" of them during all that time because whatever they did the Force was still in balance. Even if it was significantly shifted to the dark when they previously ruled the galaxy it still was not out of balance.

Out of balance is a specific universe and reality altering event beyond the ongoing battle of Light vs Dark. In the normal course of events the Light and Dark balance out. When the balance shifts to one side or the other it can work it's way back to balance. When it's out of balance that can't happen.

The Dark side had the high ground as it were and while Light could challenge it couldn't get to an equal footing.

 

There's no authentic basis for making that reduction.

There's imbalance in spite of, and implicitly because of, Luke's presumption to maintain balance by emulating his predecessors.

 

It's right in the movies.

When the Force goes out of balance a Chosen One will destroy the Sith and put the Force back into balance.

The Sith were around for thousands of year causing all kinds of destruction and yet the Force was not put out of balance by any of those actions even when they last ruled the galaxy. So the Sith merely ruling the galaxy didn't put the Force out of balance.

The Sith merely existing doesn't put the Force out of balance.

The Sith's actions seen during the saga are what shrouded the galaxy in darkness and put the Force out of balance which is why the Chosen One finally came about as prophesied.

The Chosen One they ultimately destroyed the Sith and put the Force back into balance. If at some point some other faction of Sith would show up their mere presence alone would not instantly put the Force out of balance.

In Star Wars it's about paths of destiny that an individual chose and their actions. You can't become a Jedi (or Sith) without training. Merely having Force powers doesn't make you a Jedi. You need to train and take their philosophy. Even for Sith that is the case. A new legion of Sith can emerge from the mists of time but that doesn't mean they could ever put the Force out of balance like Sidious did anymore than they did for thousands of years before that.

 

Nothing in the movies tells us that the reasons for the existence of the Sith didn't matter.

 

Going this route will lead you to "who come first? The chicken or the egg?" case.

The way I see it, the reason why the sith in particular caused imbalance was because they survived for thousands years creating destructions and corruption more than any group of evil (take Snoke and Kylo for example. They did a lot of evil, but one of them is already dead and the other is going to be stopped soon. They didn't survive for thousands years like the sith). Which is why the force decided to act by creating a chosen one.

I also don't agree with the idea that the force created Anakin as result of Sheev's evil actions since the prophacy was there before him and Anakin was born before he come to power. The prophacy was about getting rid of the teaching of the sith and bring back the balance that was destroyed due to their actions, not about specific sith lord.

 

Yes.

Inconvenient, I know. But it's the eternal question. To impose restrictions in order to avoid it would be flawed, IMO.

 

Their mommies and daddies.

Rey, Yoda, Leia, everything that went down in the film?

It didn't. We're talking about, what, a minute of dialogue? How is that the whole running time of the film?

A feminist hero having to get a male to come to his senses and see the error of his ways in a film is really nothing new by this point.

Maybe he's conflicted.

 

I wish we didn't use the term "feminist" when discussing star wars as that just adds politics into it. BUT I DO AGREE With your statement
and I enjoyed Rey and Kylo's struggle in the film, as they both try and figure each other out. I think they both help each other in a way, but obviously
Rey is smart enough not to fall for kylo's deception at the same time.
AND ALSO I don't think TLJ trashed the JEDI ORDER (@Alexrd). I think they acknowledged the long time success of it but even Yoda
realized it was time for the Jedi to change their ways to fit the galaxy of today and to ensure someone like Sidious is not able
to take over again. Even with the JEDI's success , in the end they got beat out by the Sith Rule of 2 plan and it's smart for Yoda and Luke
to realize that the Jedi need to change some things. Plus they still have the jedi texts (Rey took them on ship) so that
shows that TLJ acknowledges the wisdom of the past Jedi Order.

 

She went from "kylo is a scum!!" to attacking Luke and walking right into trap to save kylo pretty quickly. I wouldn't call this "smart".

 

What about them? How did they changed Luke's mind? What changed?

It could even be a sentence. As long as it's not contradicted and the characters act accordingly, it's something that will remain throughout. Which it did.

What were the errors of his ways? When did she do any of that? 'Feminist'? 'Male'? What's the relevancy of their genders here?

Maybe the story is not logical nor thought-through.

What ways should be changed and for what reason? Since when did Sidious took over due to the Jedi or their way(s)?

 

Until Luke decided to get involved. This went against his earlier behavior, and his dialogue at the end contradicted his earlier sentiment. Character development is a thing.

Hiding out and not helping? Wanting to end the Jedi?

 

But my point is that there was no development that justified that change.

Again, what changed his mind?

 

His heart, in the end. And the lack of any real satisfaction regarding what he thought he might achieve from the burning of what amounts to a dead tree confirms that it was merely a gesture. One that Luke never fully commited to.

It's great the way that Yoda summons the lighting from the sky. That tree could have been hit by natural lightning at any time and yielded the same results. Would it have made any difference to the force? To the light?

 

Luke feels guilt over his actions and is obviously projecting a bit of his own issues onto his whole the Jedi must end stance but he's not entirely wrong in his "the legacy of the Jedi is failure" stance. The old way of doing things has gotten 2 Darth Vaders in 50 years. One is too many! As Yoda says, failure is the greatest teacher and they are what they grow beyond. Rey nicking the Sacred Texts means she should look to the old ways of the Jedi but not be entirely beholden to how it used to go.

 

So it was a sudden change of heart, without any sort of logical catalyst. It simply happened.

The burning might have been a gesture but to claim that the Jedi Order should end was not (and destroying the books would have been consistent with that belief). He exiled himself for years to do just that, while guarding a tree and some books from an Order he says should end. Not sure how that makes any sense, but that's TLJ.

Don't know, but that's beside the point. The fact is that it was burned by Yoda, a long dead Jedi who for some reason decides to randomly burn a tree from the netherworld of the Force. A pity that since it turns out he's capable of that, he didn't randomly burn the bad guys or made his point (whatever it was) through words.

 

No. Not sudden. he's been on that island six years without doing what he supposedly went there to do, but is heart wouldn't let him.

But he doesn't end the Jedi. He wouldn't have even if he had burned the tree.

. This was the lesson

I don't know what you're arguing here. What lesson would Yoda give by burning bad guys with the force? Yoda's lesson here is, if you're so certain that this is what's necessary and of what it will achieve, but still can't do it - here you go. I'll show you how easy it is to destroy things.

But you cannot destroy an idea.

 

Did he not went there for the Jedi books?

I'd say he does. He dies without passing on the Jedi way.

Burning the tree doesn't end the Jedi, nobody said it would. But if the Jedi Order should end, like he believes, then destroying the books (instead of guarding them, which is contradictory to his belief) and everything associated with them would have been expected and consistent.

Lesson? I wasn't the one who introduced the concept that Yoda can destroy things from the netherworld. If he can, why not put it to good use?

Yeah, let's destroy knowledge and life forms. That'll tell him. /sarcasm

Why not make Yoda confront Luke with his own inconsistency and alleged beliefs? Why not make him correct his false assumptions and flawed reasoning? If not for him, at least for the audience.

What idea?

 

"I'm ending all of this. The tree, the texts, the Jedi; I'm going to burn it all down."

I don't understand why you're being so defensive. Of course it's a lesson. If you are perturbed by Yoda withholding this power until now, then we've got to deal with all the other ways the he, Qui Gon and Obi Wan could have intervened in a practical way, lightning or no lightning, since the discovered the secret of retaining one's identity and consciousness.

This is not just any old place either. It's a sacred island where the properties of the force are enhanced.

That's precisely what Yoda does by forcing his hand.

It's made perfectly clear by what happens and what is said between Yoda and Luke that failure cannot be turned into a potentially positive experience if you believe you can just erase the failure.

The idea of he Jedi. Ideas can evolve, adapt and change. They cannot be destroyed.

 

One could also ask the question why the Force, since it wants Palpatine dead, does not kill him itself.
Instead it creates a chosen one with the goal to kill Palpatine.
The Force could kill Palpatine by simply making the midis in his body stop reproducing.
Then Palpatine will weaken and eventually die.

I missed this earlier but I think one can argue that it is Obi-Wan that they talk about.
He was the one who used being a Force ghost to aid Luke and Luke in turn cause Vader to turn back and Vader killed Palpatine.

Ghost Obi-Wan told Luke to go to Dagobah and convinced Yoda to train Luke.
Remove that and Luke would remain untrained and this would change a lot.

And if Obi-Wan didn't have that power, would he have given up and allowed Vader to kill him?
Maybe, maybe not. And if not, perhaps he would have fought harder and maybe have been able to kill Vader.

Neither Yoda nor Anakin make any real use of the ghost power in the OT.
And in the ST, all Yoda does is to burn a tree.

And Yoda didn't teach Anakin, Obi-Wan did.
Yoda and Obi-Wan both taught Luke.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

But that's the point. They were limited in what they could do. They couldn't destroy anything, that's far from their purpose. This is something introduced in TLJ.

When was that established?

To what end? He complains anyway. Now the tree is burned and the point remains.

The Jedi are not a mere idea. You need to be taught and trained to become one. Yes, they can evolve, adapt, change and become something else entirely (i.e: not Jedi). The Sith were created that way, they were dissident Jedi. They saw their ways as an evolution, adaptation, change from the perceived flaws of the Jedi way. Basically, what makes a Jedi to begin with. It seems now it's up for grabs to whatever fans want them to be.

 

Couldn't? Or wouldn't? Like I said. The tree could have been struck by lightning, naturally, at any time.

It's just a dead tree. And Luke is mad at Yoda for doing what he failed to do. The point was that Luke was never going to get satisfaction from doing it.

I never said "mere" idea. You're talking about the Jedi order of the late republic era. What happened to those guys while they clung on to their orthodoxy and their relationship with the ruling society at the time?

Sith may have been dissident Jedi. But dissident or unorthodox Jedi are not necessarily Sith or "dark-siders" though.

You have to ask. Where did the Jedi order get the wisdom that their monopoly of force use must be used to serve any political system as implicitly as they do in the late republic era? (something they only pause to consider at the latest possible moment, when they sense that they themselves, the Jedi order, could be in danger of destruction because of it)