Lit A/V The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]

I think you're splitting hairs here; either way, I still think you're grasping at straws. I certainly think there will be plenty of people claiming that it will be... but time has a way of, well... you know. It's right there in my sig.

I don't even think Disney is banking on the "ANH for a new generation"; it's quite evident that they're trying to duplicate the "cinematic universe" success of Marvel, if only because everyone wants to. That's certainly an admirable goal, even if it's for the sake of doing it rather than good storytelling. But that bodes ill for the 'secondary material'... but the printed word is so last generation anyways.

 

>People referencing monomyth/Joseph Campbell unironically
>2015

 

What, the opening line from Neuromancer?

There's no connection planned though with the standalone films and the Sequel Trilogy. So, I disagree on the Marvel point. I think at a meta level a lot of people were rightly disappointed with the sorry state of Star Wars. The prequels were charmless and joyless wastes of time, liked by people whom Simon Pegg had the measure of. The EU was just... it was like it had been crapping blood for years and then someone took a look and went "oh Christ, what? What is this?" and shot it a few times before rolling it - justly - into a shallow grave. So these guys come along and go no, I grew up when these movies were released, and that's not my Star Wars. So they try to make a Star Wars today that makes a new generation of fans feel about it as we did back in the late 70s and early 80s.

I'm sure prequels fans felt something but a) who cares, b) they were rubbish, c) who still cares and d) I personally couldn't feel anything but mediocrity and disappointment.

Thing is, they're not stupid at Disney. In rescuing Star Wars from itself they realised nobody wanted more Clone Wars stories. The lasting impact was everything OT which is why nobody, Kylo Ren included, was flipping out like a vacuous ninja. They fought like OT people, not PT paper thin ninja wizards.

They know that brand loyalty is critical, and ANH built brand loyalty without cynicism. So yeah, I 100% believe from a business perspective their strategy was to say "we know there's an audience for this that will bring in revenue. Let's find a new audience to keep the brand alive and relevant for another thirty plus years, and never mention midi-chlorians or Mannequin or Padme ever again.

I mean, Han says "Vader", not "Anakin". Such a wonderful slap.

Commercially it is in their interests to try to capture lightning in a bottle. You honestly do them a disservice by assuming they're idiots.

 

Except that it isn't going to work because it isn't 1977 anymore.

What made ANH great was because it was groundbreaking and shook up the industry. It was fresh and new, compared to the darker/less optimistic movies that came out in the mid-70s. It was also visually something people have never seen before.

TFA can't match that kind of impact, and that isn't a knock on the movie. It just different time period.

 

Ender Sai Does everything have to be PT bashing with you dude?

 

No, he turns his ire on the EU as well.

 

There has been an awakening...

And. It. Was. Awesome.

 

You know what was awesome? The Phantom Menace. This one was pretty cool too, but watching TPM for the first time? I was in heaven. So it might not be 1977 anymore, but it ain't 1999 either....

 

Well, I went there with zero expectations, drove around the car park for 20 mins trying to find a dang place to park while another ten cars all were doing the same, got fed up, shrugged, went to drive home, decided to gamble down the industrial estate around the corner, found a place with a huge sign saying shut for winter, parked, legged it back to the cinema as I was already late, collapsed, and actually enjoyed the film tremendously.

So low expectations are the key. Go there, expecting to be let down, and hopefully you'll walk away like I did thinking it was the best film you've seen in years.

 

I walked in with high expectations for a SW movie and walked out as pleased as I could get. So walking in with low expectations is not mandatory ;-)

 

Oh, dear. You think so? I guess we'll see, then. (hint: it's not the line from Neuromancer).

*shrug* Well, in return I would say that you're looking at it through rose-colored glasses because of a perceived disgust with Star Wars in the years prior.

And I wouldn't use the word 'idiots'. I would rather say that the decisions are being made by people who say words and phrases like 'synergy' and 'content providers' without a trace of irony, on a regular basis.

 

What's up my Lit people.

I can't wait to see this movie, but

Spoiler

I hope Ren isn't a Dark Jacen 2.0, like I've been hearing.

 

I just think they understand how to make money out of nostalgia in a lasting manner, as that's been what they've done for decades. It's not a kind of ham fisted kind, it's investing in a quality product because that's how you create brand loyalty. There's a reason people stay loyal to Mercedes Benz their whole life despite competitive offerings from Audi, BMW or Lexus...

I mean, you know the FFG side of things, so you've seen how far big the rug the prequels have been swept under and how prominent the OT is. Disney is about to lose its exclusive IP over the iconic Disney characters so for them, their future lies with Marvel, and Star Wars. Maybe it's because you haven't worked in big business before so all you have is a kind of silly villainous stereotype from the films but companies typically want to exist for as long as possible and be profitable - profit being the measure of success. Disney therefore has a strong incentive to build the best quality Star Wars they can.

This post is basically 50% you fumbling for the word "zeitgeist" and how to use it; and 50% misunderstanding how intent doesn't have to be a literal replication of an event.

None of them are flattering, so maybe try again?

 

Well,

Spoiler

There's not enough backstory to know if there was a completely and utterly stupid flip on personality from NJO Jacen to who let gropey Troy Denning get his hands on this stuff? Jacen we got later. So yeah, very hard to be utterly disappointed in how badly they handled Ren because we can't see enough of his backstory to say it was flubbed.

Jacen, though... Ugh.

 

[quote="Ender Sai, post: 52976532, member: 331127"]I just think they understand how to make money out of nostalgia in a lasting manner, as that's been what they've done for decades. It's not a kind of ham fisted kind, it's investing in a quality product because that's how you create brand loyalty. There's a reason people stay loyal to Mercedes Benz their whole life despite competitive offerings from Audi, BMW or Lexus...

I mean, you know the FFG side of things, so you've seen how far big the rug the prequels have been swept under and how prominent the OT is. Disney is about to lose its exclusive IP over the iconic Disney characters so for them, their future lies with Marvel, and Star Wars. Maybe it's because you haven't worked in big business before so all you have is a kind of silly villainous stereotype from the films but companies typically want to exist for as long as possible and be profitable - profit being the measure of success. Disney therefore has a strong incentive to build the best quality Star Wars they can.[/quote]

You are making it sound as if Star Wars doesn't have this already. Say what you want about the PT, but those movies were a success financially and it did help grow the franchise and those movies, along with other SW content( CW, Old Republic etc) proved that you don't need to milk nostalgia of the OT to make money.

Disney owns one of the few franchises that can literally sale on it's name alone. And IMO, they should take advantage of that and take risk and push things forward instead of trying to recapture the magic of 1977.

 

I mean, we can go around and around, but at the end of day, I'm still not feeling it. There's just too much else of interest right now, and it's pointless to waste any more than a movie ticket on a franchise that doesn't excite me.

 

Did you miss the huge news stories about how Disney is going to lose those characters? You understand copyright over an IP has a time limit, and while Disney have been successful at extending this beyond all reason (thanks, Murican courts! ) they cannot extend it further.

I mean, it bothers me but probably shouldn't, that people lack the basic capacity for some critical analysis. Why do you think Disney acquired Marvel? Then Star Wars?

The idiot's answer would be "money". This is because the idiots mind operates at the superficial level, but we're not idiots are we?

Disney needs to be able to run Intellectual Property constructs as businesses. That means, they merchandise and spin off around their characters. So, their business relies on them making a solid investment in a brand that has established brand loyalty and that they can grow.

This means revenue, but it means more importantly long-term sustainability. Disney, in order to make the purchase of LFL for US$4bn, would need to get an ROI on their funds, right? Which means that as they were contemplating it, a business case (formal, not just people rolling chat) would be assembled with forecast revenue projections and a break even point - where they will have recovered their $4bn investment in income.

If they kept going milking the terribad prequels and Drone Wars, their income would have been fairly static. But, if they bank on the "kidult" nostalgia dollar and try and reboot interest in fandom? Exponential revenue streams and a new set of characters that aren't autistic future Sith Lords, that kids can grow old with.

I can't say 'the problem with the prequels', because they were in every respect problematic and defending them is defence of the indefensible. Simon Pegg was 110% right. So I will instead say "one of" the problems with the prequels was it was not really bringing new characters whose adventures were unknown. We knew Mannequin would become Vader, though we expected more than a modest tantrum (though to be fair I think he's written with Aspergers or something, so emotion's rare) as the catalyst. We knew Ben would train and defeat him. We knew the Jedi would die, and Yoda wouldn't. It was therefore a tremendous misstep and exercise in vanity where Lucas thought he was telling us fans what we wanted to hear.

Now, though, the difference is manifest. They're noting that people love the OT the most. They remember why they loved it. And they know they want these characters to be special to viewers so, in 15-20 years time, even 30 years time, they're still revered. People can talk about ANH tapping into the zeitgeist all they want, the simple fact is a bunch of adults and mostly kids (including yours truly) grew up as these films were being released. And we have tremendous love for them because of that. As a strategy, trying to engender that love over time with a new generation of fans makes perfect sense. I can't say if it will succeed, but it's already better than any novel since I, Jedi or anything prequel related.

If your reasoning is in part because of how the EU is treated I may pass out from schadenfraude. Just FYI.

 

But honestly, blackmyron. You should go see it.

 

Piggybacking on nostalgia for the good SW movies is a great short term strategy, I'm sure. (tempus edax rerum was the winner, BTW).

Any feelings about the new movie is looking at Star Wars as a movie franchise i.e. following the OT and PT. The EU doesn't play a factor (except, of course, with FFG's RPGs... right E_S?)

Edit: No, I'm definitely going to see the movie. My fiancee wants to go see it, even if none of my friends have the slightest interest. But I do plan on watching the OT - the original OT - back-to-back beforehand. Unfair? Absolutely!

 

I'm aware of that point (re: sig). The nostalgia gets bums on seats, but doing it right is what keeps them around. The prequels got it half right.

The sequels get it fully right. Any of the three acts of TFA are more Star Warsy than the entire prequels.

 

Copying my post from the Ep VII forum.

I do not say this lightly. I still hate what Disney has done with many aspects of Star Wars up to this point. I still think Abrams was decent with Trek but mediocre in all other respects and do not care about his other work. I still think the franchise is being done as a massive cash grab and wonder if where they'll take it will be the best place...

However...

Best. Since. Empire.

Maybe even Best Since 1977.

I'm not even saying it was my favorite, but the raw execution of everything as a film was flawless. The performances and characterizations were handled perfectly. The aesthetics were wonderful. The things I didn't like about the plot and spoilers didn't matter because upon seeing the film it all came together.

Maybe I should say it this way.

Disney took years of star Wars and tore it down. In some respects I still hate that fact.

Yet in a mere 2 and a half hour they told a story that spans 30 years all over again. I don't think I've seen that done this well since the original film.

Are there things I would've liked to have seen more of? Yes, aboslutely. But I am ultimately very happy with what I did see. It is a shockingly natural continuation of the OT, despite numerous mysteries. JJ was correct when he said he wanted the movie to focus on how it made the audience feel, because that is exactly what it got right.​

 

Spoiler

For what it's worth, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo was an infinitely better villain than Darth Caedus. Caedus suffered from a heroic backstory, an illogical turn to the dark side, and inconsistent writing. Kylo Ren seems like he was a bad seed from the start ("Too much Vader in him"/That's why they gave him to Luke), not some hero. And he's just gotten worse. His conversation with Han was something that never would've happened in LOTF, because Jacen stopped caring about Han like three books in. Kylo was conflicted right until the lightsaber went through Han's chest. Part of him wanted the light side to come back...and stabbing Han snuffed that part of him.

He was such a great villain. Insane, wild, and powerful. Never the manipulative strategist that Jacen was: that was Hux's job, more than anything. Kylo was menacing and frightening in a way Jacen couldn't be, because there's the part of you that always remembers Jacen as the hero from NJO. Kylo? No, he's a villain and a threat right from the start. I loved him even as I hated him. And that moment where he was pounding his injured side to psych himself up for the fight? That was one of the most sick and yet believable parts of the movie. He was embracing his pain to make himself stronger. Kylo was everything JINO never could've been.

 

I'm not going to lie, it was semi-intentional.

 

Spoiler

Kylo seems brainwashed, honestly. I was getting serious "Kyp enthralled by Exar Kun" vibes from him, by the end. In part because the idea of keeping to the dark side being a struggle is in itself a very new concept. It's meant to be the easy path, after all.

Anyway, I realise "lol manikin Skywalker amirite" but I was actually quite impressed by how Driver managed to channel both Anakin and Vader in his performance. Kylo managed to be petulant and pouty without being irritating. And was just as darkly comic as his grandfather.

"Anything else?"