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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga The Force - No "Dark" or "Light" Side

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by AEHoward33, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I once read an essay about Qui-Gon Jinn, written by Paul F. McDonald. In the article, McDonald pointed out that Qui-Gon was the only Force-sensitive character who never used the "Dark Side of the Force" phrase. He concluded that to Qui-Gon, the Force was simply . . . the Force.

    I wish it was this simple. Lucas had introduced the phrase "Dark Side" to moviegoers in "The Empire Strikes Back". And STAR WARS fans have been categorizing and labeling the Force ever since. For me, the Force is simply a mystical energy field that connected everything in the universe. That's it. I think it is a mistake to reduce the Force into something that can be labeled, sub-labeled and categorized. I don't buy the label "Dark Side of the Force" when someone uses the Force for evil. For me, that person is merely surrendering to his or her own potential for evil in order to harm others. It's not part of the Force that is evil . . . it is the Force user. And looking back on all of this, I'm glad that Qui-Gon never used the "Dark Side of the Force" phrase. On the other hand, I wish George Lucas had never created it in the first place.
     
  2. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Actually the term "Dark side of the force" was already used in ANH. Darth Vader was already said to have been seduced by it, as Kenobi told Luke
     
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  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The fact that the Force has a dark and light side doesn't make it less of an energy field that binds the galaxy together. It's not a reduction. One's connection with (and usage of) the Force can be benign and symbiotic or malignant and cancerous/parasitic. One leads to prosperity the other to decay. These two sides of the Force one chooses to feed on are the light and dark sides. How one chooses to act is up to each person. And their actions are their responsibility. Qui-Gon not mentioning the dark side of the Force is meaningless. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist and it also doesn't mean Qui-Gon doesn't acknowledge it. The only one who mentions the dark side in TPM is Yoda. And he mentions it because he happens to have something to say about it. The other characters happen to not have.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  4. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The Dark/Light side of the Force is equivalent to the concept of Yin/Yang. IMHO, the Force is the same for everyone. Its Dark or Light depending on one's point of view.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  5. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and the he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the Dark Side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts suggest that although can't see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training, Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start to use him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection. In this episode Luke should embody the classic tale of the ugly duckling who becomes a hero, and by the end of the film Luke should have become Ben. - Annotated Screenplays
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  6. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    It's clear to me at least that the Dark Side has its own qualities and its use can be like an addiction. It's definitely portrayed in an almost personal way that the Dark Side will seduce you. From that point of view I found it interesting that in the dialogue between Kylo Ren and Snoke, Kylo tries to assure Snoke that he will not be seduced by the Light Side. Apparently this wasn't a concern during the classic trilogy era, because Vader was so far gone, whereas Kylo is still working through the process of burying or destroying or dissolving his conscience and past light side training.

    Before the prequel trilogy I came out I had a similar discussion about this with one of my friends and suggested the same thing here--that "dark side" is an ideological term and an imposition of being to something that really just descibes the way people use the force, as an alternative to the more dualistic interpretation. My friend liked that idea better, but I think the more dualistic version is more in keeping with what Lucas presents and definitely with licensed media such as the EU and the sequel trilogy.
     
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  7. Libs

    Libs Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Star Wars: A New Hope-

    Obi Wan: " Vader was seduced by 'The Dark Side' of the Force

    Luke: "The Force?"
     
  8. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Yes, and in the very same breath he lied to Luke about his father having been killed, a lie he tried to cover up later by handing Luke that good old "certain point of view" line. It was a lie, period, no other way to put it. What do we learn from this? That not everything that comes from the mouth of a "wise" old man, even if he is a Jedi, should be taken at face value, that the Jedi have no qualms about bending the truth somewhat to fit into their own ideology. So are the Jedi to be always trusted, especially after the prequels? I don't think so. They are just as ideologically inflexible as the Sith.
    Sidious said "good is a point of view". Maybe there is more to that than we think? Sure, as viewers we are supposed to agree with the Jedi, supposed to hate the Sith and condemn their views. But do we ever get to make an objective judgment based on understanding the whole truth from BOTH sides? In a court trial the judge ideally gets to hear both sides in a case before passing judgment.
    Very good point, and an interpretation I can relate to. SW has become a lot less black and white with the prequels, and we get a broader picture, witness that the Jedi are far from being infallible and full of wisdom, but can be dangerously close to becoming puppets to their ideology.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  9. Kelvan Adamante

    Kelvan Adamante Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2020
    My theory on the Force:

    In a way, the Force can be personated as an omnipresent and omnipotent being with his own wills - a godlike figure. ("The will of the Force" quite resembles the term "the will of God" in reality). This being has personalities and motivations that is categorizable into the light/dark dichotomy. Therefore, the notion of the two sides of the Force originates from the personification of the Force (which points to
    the Whills​
    ).


    We never know the origin of the Force. However, it's reasonable to argue that the Force, an energy field the Star Wars individuals feel, is an interaction field generated by a being (the Whills) throughout the Star Wars galaxy. In this way, the Force is an interaction of this mighty being (the Being for short) with the midichlorians inside the individuals. This view establishes a deity in the galaxy, which has the power to decide each individual's fate, or his sensitivity towards the Being.

    This Being, with its light/dark features, has its own wills - either to establish, or to destroy. It controls the Force and wishes it to rest in balance instead of toppling to one side. As a result, we have seen the Jedi Republic (Old Republic) coexisting and clashing with the Sith Empire in history. When the Sith were (almost) wiped out, the following millenium was totally controlled by the Jedi: they monopolized the Force users within and outside the borders of the Republic. The Being saw the light side thrive in power and size with the Force far too inclined to the bright side, and decided to bring it back to balance, leading to the Jedi Order's demise and the reemergence of the Sith. And here was the Chosen One introduced - as an agent of the Force .

    Anakin Skywalker's life was, in a way, the manifestation of the will of the Force. Interestingly, the Mortis story arc in the Clone Wars was the epitome of his journey.
    • He was born a Force-sensitive and kept himself inclined toward the light for the most of the time before Qui-Gon showed up, indicating the predominant light side at the times.
    • He rebeled against the Jedi Order, indicating the light side was far too strong (which Jedi conservatives like Mace Windu and Yoda strongly detested);
    • He was a hero in the tumultuous Clone Wars, almost leading the downfall for the Jedi Order.
    • He brought the demise of the Jedi Order, fulfilling the balance of the Force.
    • He immersed himself in killing and oppression, indicating the predominant dark side at the times.
    • He rediscovered himself as Anakin Skywalker, killing the last two Siths, fulfilling the balance of the Force once again.
     
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  10. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Ah, now this is something interesting to ponder!

    If I'm not mistaken, I believe GL's personal idea of the Force when it came to the light* and dark side is that the light side itself IS the Force, in its natural state, while the dark side is an aberration, twisting of nature, sort of like a cancer. The mere existence of the dark side was the imbalance in the Force

    *I believe it's worth noting that, unless I'm mistaken, the term "light side" was only ever used in EU. The closest I-VI got to the term was Luke calling it "the good side". Perhaps, under this interpretation, said "good side" is the only intended side

    But as things are now with the I-IX saga, there is a clear distinction between light and dark sides of the Force as their own separate entities, both naturally existing. I'm not sure if I would compare them to Yin/Yang, but a somewhat more simplistic "there is always good, there is always evil, but it's just a matter of which is stronger"

    But I get sort of mixed messages. If the dark side IS a natural thing, what use for good does it have? Can't imagine using the Force to choke someone or electrocute them to death having much use for good. Force defibrillation? We also have Force healing, though, which is most certainly a "light aligned" ability

    I think I can see where the intent was, especially with interviews with Chris Terrio after TROS was released, but I feel like there's still a strong need to clarify what place, exactly, the dark side has in the natural order of the SW universe, if we're going that direction. I don't object to either, but I'd like it to be a bit clearer

    Or maybe I'm just entirely wrong in my entire analysis and I'm rambling into the void? Fun either way!
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    That's the Sith, rather than "the dark side itself". Lucas has used "yin-yang" for light and dark side.


    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil — everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." - Time magazine 2002
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  12. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    The idea of balance being restored through the downfall of the Sith AND Jedi simply doesn't scan. The appearance of the chosen one happens right as the darkside is growing stronger and stronger. An imbalance towards the light that lasts for about a millenia simply doesn't fit to that picture. Either the reaction is quick or it is slow, it cannot take ages on one side and then swing immediately to deal with the other side. If the light could move the force out of balance, something would have corrected it way sooner than that.

    It also doesn't fit to what is shown and said in the movies. The force is getting shrouded in darkness throughout the PT. The Jedi have more and more issues using it to their supposed standard. That is the very opposite of the light being at its height.
    The chosen one only appears when the darkside is growing, and he ends the reign of darkness (not right away, but pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things), while also strengthening the light.

    That's also where I would see the entire "let the force flow through you" compared to twisting it to serve your own needs come into play. You cannot let the force flow too much through you, there is no damage to be done by there being lots and lots of lightsiders. You can however do damage by trying to make the force do your bidding on a larger scale. That's when you will eventually have to deal with the consequences (= the force ridding itself of this influence).
     
  13. Kelvan Adamante

    Kelvan Adamante Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2020
    "In absolute darkness one cannot see. In dazzing light one is turned blind."
    I believe George Lucas' original idea on the Force and the dark side may be this simple as he showed us the original trilogy with nearly absolute rights and wrongs. His view on the whole picture expanded, though, when creating the prequels. Things are no longer simple to categorize into the good/evil or black/white dichotomies.
    The emergence of "middle ground" was best explored in the Clone Wars. No one claims the Nightsisters evil because they are dark-side wielders. Separatists have peace-loving guys who craved nothing but benefits of the people in them. The Republic is deeply corrupted. The Jedi are, in a way, escapists from their own dark sides, exceedingly dogmatic and growingly blindfolded, making errors all the time. Obi-Wan and Yoda have their dark side and Mace best utilizes his in battle. Ventress never expected her salvation at last. And of course, Maul.
    The concept of the Force has been expanded so much that in the final episodes of the last season of the Clone Wars where Yoda traversed through his journey, he realized that he had to face his dark side, and admit it to be part of him instead of some sort of deadly cancer. Through denial, the dark force gains strength in turn; through admission, one controls his dark side. And that is also applicable to the Force.

    The dark side is no cancer of the Force - it's just the other side of the coin. The Sith is arguably cancer of the Force.
     
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  14. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    The way I see it, the Force is neither inherently good nor bad, it just is. But there has to be balance. The Mortis arc typifies this. We have the Father, who is the Force, and the Son and the Daughter, which are the balance. One light, one dark. We see it in the prequels with the Sith, who gain their power exponentially, at least since Bane's rule of two, and the Jedi whose power is linear. This explains why two Sith can match thousands of Jedi. Even before the prequel era, with the Sith in hiding, there was still balance, but it was misinterpreted by the Jedi with the belief that if the Sith were gone meant there was balance. The Jedi misread the prophecy. Anakin was the chosen one, but not in the sense of destroying the Sith would bring balance. Anakin was created by the Force as the chosen one to replace the Father.There was balance in the prequel era and before, because both sides were there, even if not seen.

    From there, we start to see the imbalance and the Force correcting itself. Order 66 and the elimination of the vast majority of the Jedi throws off the balance, and as a result, we see the balance return in Luke's power and ability. We see Luke being able to stand toe to toe, for the most part, with Vader and Sidious, which no other Jedi, sans maybe Yoda, was capable of.

    I don't know how much of this is canon anymore, aside from the Bendu, but the notion of the balance and the Force being neither good nor bad, goes back to the Je'daii, which were neither good nor evil, neither light nor dark, but were all facets of the Force, at least until the split which brought about the Sith and the Jedi. To me, this then ties back into the Mortis arc, and the Father, the Son and the Daughter. Based on the Father being multiple millennia old, I believe the Son and the Daughter were "born" of the force in response to the split of the Je'daii.

    I think, with the death of Anakin, Rey is now the chosen one, who has in essence, replaced the Father. We see in the Last Jedi, Rey's ability to go to the dark side without temptation of it dominating her path. She is able to come back to center without issue. Her abilities show she can harness either side, or both sides of the Force, as needed. She was also shown to be a manifestation of the Force, much as Anakin was, until Rise of Skywalker ruined that notion by making her a Palpatine. As Snoke comments to Kylo Ren, equal light, equal dark, we see how quickly she grows within the Force. With Ray being the last one standing, at this point, and based upon her abilities to channel whichever side of the force she needs, it's why I think she is now the Force, and in essence the chosen one who replaced the Father.
     
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  15. JeanNo

    JeanNo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Balance means good / bad, happiness / sadness, light / dark.
    Both sides - from the same coin - are equally important.
    The final trick is to find out how to play with both.
    It's all about "Balance" at the end, I guess.
     
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