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The Foreigners [The Jag/Kyrn Discussion Group]

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Elena, Nov 28, 2005.

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  1. Elena

    Elena Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Friendship. It?s what makes the world go ?round, or something like it?so why doesn?t anyone write about the relationship between Jag Fel and Shawnk?yr?nuruodo?

    This is a resource thread devoted to discussion of the relationship between Jag and Kyrn, arguably one of the least-discussed canon character relationships. How do you see the characters and how they relate to each other? How do you write them? Do you see them as friends or a ?strictly business? relationship? Are you one of those poor souls who feel the tuggings of a new ?ship to lavish praise upon?

    If so, talk about it here ? no one else will!

    Underneath our signatures, there is a list of stories featuring a significant [Jag/Kyrn] (or [Jag, Kyrn], if you want to be tetchy) component. This post will only be updated for new stories to be added to the list, so check back regularly for your ?fic fix, and if you know of any others, please PM Elena or Inara. And of course, there?s always the [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22451150&brd=10477&replies=0][Jag/Kyrn] Challenge thread[/link] to participate it, so you can add to it there!

    So, make with the chatter, people!

    -Elena and Inara

    Stories by Author

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/ASP/user.asp?usr=950046]Elena[/link]

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=18407077&replies=6]Affectionate[/link]
    Characters: Jag, Kyrn
    Genre: Romance
    Summary: She was not unhappy with him.
    Notes: Fic for Valentine?s Day ?05

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22453658&brd=10477]Slang[/link]
    Characters: Jag, Kyrn.
    Genre: Humor
    Time Period: NJO, at the Alston duology.
    Summary: Kyrn think Jag is a crutch. Jag thinks Kyrn doesn?t understand humans. Kyrn thinks he?s an idiot ? but he?s still her friend, even if he has gone stupid about Major Solo.
    Notes: ?Fic written to celebrate the opening of [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22451046&brd=10304]The Foreigners[/link] and done for the first challenge at [link=http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/22451150/p1/?0] ?They?re not from around here??[/link].

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/ASP/user.asp?usr=Flaming_Sword]Flaming Sword[/link]

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=18463270]The Hardest Thing[/link]
    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=23946812&brd=10477&start=24015655]Forever Means Forever[/link]

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/ASP/user.asp?usr=1212305]Inara[/link]

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=21675564&replies=0]Friends No More[/link]
    Characters: Jag Fel, Shawnkyr Nuruodo, Jaina Solo, Cem Fel, and Rusa?tha?nuruodo (OC)
    Genre: Drama, Romance
    Summary: The peerless friendship between Shawnkyr Nuruodo and Jag Fel is put to the test by misunderstandings and a betrayal of trust. Beset by unwelcome feelings, they learn that the thin line between friendship and desire is not always easy or wise to cross. As they ponder the strange turn their friendship has taken, they wonder if no price is too high to pay if a priceless friendship is at stake.
    Notes: A foray into Chiss culture and romance.

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/22463494/p1/?7]Put Your Eyebrows Away[/link]
    Timeframe: Pre-NJO
    Characters: Jagged Fel, Shawnkyr Nuruodo
    Genre: Humor, Friendship
    Summary: Feeling miserable, Jag Fel discovers that sometimes, friendship is the best medicine.
    Author Notes: A short piece written for the debut of the [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22451046&brd=10304]The Foreigners[/link], the Jag/Kyrn index.

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/ASP/user.asp?usr=Kathryn]Kathryn[/link]

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=16410721]Confrontation[/link]

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/AS
     
  2. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    [face_dancing][face_dancing]

    Thanks, Elena, for starting us off. I'm sure there are a lot of us out there who have opinions on Shawnkyr and Jag - so let's hear them!
     
  3. Gloria

    Gloria Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Love the friendship, not as anything more. :p But I'll stick around. [face_peace]
     
  4. JadeSolo

    JadeSolo Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I think they're cute together. [face_love]

    I haven't read RSBF, but from the NJO, it seems like their relationship is very much built on respect for each other's skills. And those skills, especially on Jag's part, include adhering to Chiss principles. I think Jag, as a human, is more susceptible to emotions, just because he's genetically wired that way. But Kyrn (I've never called her that before, this is weird :p ) is wired more for logic and rational thinking.

    So how do they bond? Over shared principles that don't necessarily require emotions (as humans traditionally define them) to be true or moral.

    I mean, I'd be very surprised if as a couple they were lovey-dovey with each other. As friends, I bet they'd be able to sit down over a cup of caf and discuss whatever came to mind. Even the more awkward things, because it seems that for the Chiss, if you can't be honest about something, how can you make a clear-headed decision? And if you can't make a clear-headed decision, you're not able to carry out your duty to the best of your abilities.

    That's what I think, anyway. :p
     
  5. Chimpo_the_Sith

    Chimpo_the_Sith Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2003
    I like them as friends and nothing more.
     
  6. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    [face_love] Me too. It started to grow on me (I wasn't that into them as a couple when I first started writing a fic about them.

    I think what did it for me was actually reading a fic featuring a Jag/Tahiri pairing, which came out of left field for me, since as far as I was aware, they hadn't exchanged more than a few words in the entire span of the NJO, and really, all they had in common (to my eyes) was that they were human. For me, the question then became one of specieism (I am hoping this is a word).

    It's something I see fairly often, and I'm not sure why. Jaina is paired with multiple men, but why is Jag only seen with Jaina (and now Tahiri?). I don't buy that Jag and Jaina are perfect for each other - the only couple I see as perfect for each other is Han and Leia. But Jag and Jaina...there should be room to play with them. This isn't to say that I don't enjoy stories featuring that pairing; in fact, I've written a few stories with those two. But the Jag/Jaina relationship in the NJO seemed slightly unhealthy to me.

    I can't recall who said this, but in one of the reviews for FNM, someone pointed out that the Jag/Shawnkyr pairing couldn't work because Jaina brings out the best in Jag, or something like that. I disagreed. I think both women bring out facets to Jag's personality, and it's a shame that at least at this point, they are mutually exclusive. I for one don't want to see Jag become a Rebel - I'd rather have him stay Chiss and in the CEDF, not because I want him near Shawnkyr (though that's an added bonus :p) but that his position is unique, and it's one that is honoring him. And I don't see the entire Chiss people banding together to kick him out, unless he does something monumentally stupid.

    So perhaps that's why it's easier for me the envision Jag with someone else.

    And, what else added ammunition for my thoughts was this paragraph from FH:1:

    [...]his childhood friend Shawnkyr, who had returned to Chiss space after Ebaq 9.[...]She was exactly the sort of person he should have ended up with?not someone like Jaina, the headstrong, stubborn daughter of parents who openly spurned military authority. He had known Shawnkyr ever since their victory over looters during their academy training; he had known Jaina only a couple of years. Shawnkyr had a perfect understanding and acceptance of the chain of command; Jaina was known as something of a loose blaster, following orders only when they concurred with her own moral code.

    This paragraph isn't flattering to either Shawnkyr or Jaina, but what it showed me is that Jag had previously considered someone of Shawnkyr's type before, and in fact, this was something that his parents might have encouraged as well. Which might explain why his attraction to Jaina came out of nowhere. So perhaps there is a precedent for the Jag/Shawnkyr relationship.


    I really like this point. When we read Star Wars literature, we often forget that it's written from the Rebel perspective, and the Rebels tend to be more emotional in their moral decisions (see all literature from ROTJ onwards).

    We're handicapped in the sense that we don't get an accurate understanding of their enemies because we see them through the eyes of the (biased) heros like Han and Luke. Even the Empire has good qualities long overlooked, and of the Chiss, Bothan, and even Sith motivations, very little is told to us. Only the Yuuzhan Vong have been explained in some detail, but that is another argument entirely.

    So why are some people so sure that the Chiss aren't good people, and that Jag should not strive to emulate them? Is being like an Imperial a bad thing? Perhaps it is to the daughter of a Rebel hero, but to anyone else?

    Even beyond romance, the Jag/Shawnkyr dynamic is pretty interesting to me. Jag confidently told the Baron that Shawn
     
  7. FelsGoddess

    FelsGoddess Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 5, 2004
    I've always thought they had a very interesting friendship.
     
  8. Trepidation

    Trepidation Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2005

    Just a [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=22465478&brd=10477&replies=0]little scene[/link] to support the friendship angle...


    Title: Summoned
    Characters: Jag, Shawnkyr
    Genre: friendship
    Summary: Not expected...but, certainly, warranted
    Location: Csilla
    Time Frame: Post NJO


     
  9. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Inara: to me, that POV of Jag in FH3 reads slightly wrong. If you can cite a single place where Jag does anything except "following orders only when they concurred with his own moral code", please let me know...

    Jaina knows Jag is right; all her suffering comes because she allows other people (Kyp, the NRDF, Uncle Luke) to talk her into doing other things...

    :p [face_whistling]

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  10. Elena

    Elena Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2003
    [If you look at the index, two new authors and three new stories have been added ? read and enjoy!]

    Inara:

    Thanks, Elena, for starting us off. I'm sure there are a lot of us out there who have opinions on Shawnkyr and Jag - so let's hear them!

    *blows kiss* What she said!

    Gloria:

    Love the friendship, not as anything more. [face_smile] But I'll stick around. [face_peace]

    *bows* Thank you, oh glorious one. But why do you like the friendship? Is it the dry quips? The raised eyebrow? The strangely compelling blue skin?

    JadeSolo:

    I think they're cute together. [face_love]

    *grins* Join the club of those of us afflicted with love-bug?

    I haven't read RSBF, but from the NJO, it seems like their relationship is very much built on respect for each other's skills. And those skills, especially on Jag's part, include adhering to Chiss principles. I think Jag, as a human, is more susceptible to emotions, just because he's genetically wired that way. But Kyrn (I've never called her that before, this is weird :p ) is wired more for logic and rational thinking.

    In some ways, I feel that?s correct about the basic nature of the Chiss. But in others, I get the feeling that the Chiss are quite inquisitive, but unfortunately live in such a harsh, uncivilized area of space that they?ve been forced to become isolationist. In the books, the Chiss seem to be quite pragmatic, yet Thrawn had a wonderful art collection, and he seemed to truly enjoy it ? and to enjoy using it to dissect other species? weaknesses. Jag himself says that the Chiss can be?whimsical.

    So how do they bond? Over shared principles that don't necessarily require emotions (as humans traditionally define them) to be true or moral.

    *channels Tenel Ka* This is a fact?

    I mean, I'd be very surprised if as a couple they were lovey-dovey with each other. As friends, I bet they'd be able to sit down over a cup of caf and discuss whatever came to mind. Even the more awkward things, because it seems that for the Chiss, if you can't be honest about something, how can you make a clear-headed decision? And if you can't make a clear-headed decision, you're not able to carry out your duty to the best of your abilities.

    That's what I think, anyway.


    So, I?m assuming the ?we love our friends because of their flaws? idea doesn?t fly, right?

    Chimpo:

    I like them as friends and nothing more.

    It?s OK, buddy, we won?t try to convert you from J/J. I get the feeling that S/J is destined to remain an alt.ship?

    Inara:

    I think what did it for me was actually reading a fic featuring a Jag/Tahiri pairing, which came out of left field for me, since as far as I was aware, they hadn't exchanged more than a few words in the entire span of the NJO, and really, all they had in common (to my eyes) was that they were human. For me, the question then became one of specieism (I am hoping this is a word).

    *grins, then rubs back of head* Well, for those of us who will pair up anyone and anything for the challenge, it wasn?t quite the bad?

    We're handicapped in the sense that we don't get an accurate understanding of their enemies because we see them through the eyes of the (biased) heros like Han and Luke. Even the Empire has good qualities long overlooked, and of the Chiss, Bothan, and even Sith motivations, very little is told to us. Only the Yuuzhan Vong have been explained in some detail, but that is another argument entirely.

    Yes, that?s true *sniffles* My poor Bothans get such a bad rap? Although the Sith seem fairly transparent to me: where the Jedi are power-hungry elitists, the Sith are power-hungry elitists!

    So why are some people so sure that the Chiss aren't good people, and that Jag should not strive to emulate them? Is being like an Imperial a bad thing? Perhaps it is to the daughter of a Rebel hero, but to anyone else?

    It?s because to some people, the Empi
     
  11. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Well, that excerpt isn't so much a look into Jag as it is a comparison between the two of them. Yes, Jag certainly has a habit of running off half-cocked when he feels the need for it, and Elaine Cunningham depicted him as slightly rebellious in RSBF.




    Don't forget the red eyes...the blue black hair...the near Victorian manners...


    I agree on their inquisitive natures. I really liked the scene in FH:2 when the Jedi walked into the CEDF library and discover the immense ammount of information - and the fact that they hand write their books. It certainly lends another perspective on their culture.


    I've always imagined that the Chiss are very much into the arts, even the performing arts. Music, mathematics, dance - all these things might appeal to their appreciation for the arts, perhaps a way for them to express emotions that they otherwise cannot?


    And just think, there is no Kyp involved either, Chimpo!


    About the Sith - their use of the Force aside, at one point they had a huge empire (in fact, the Sith first contacted the Chiss...), and I think there was more to their empire than a simple lust for domination. But that's not really my point. Only that everything we read is from the Rebel POV, and it's a good idea to keep that in mind.


    Winter and Mon Mothma were both friends of Ackbar. And Thrawn and Pelly - how could I forget them! The first canonical relationship between a human and a Chiss. And let's face it...Pellaeon would be nothing if he had never served with Thrawn.

     
  12. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Here is another entry for the challenge by Killik_Twilight (he posted it in the Chiss thread but not here):

    Title: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/22480329/p1/?0]Suggestions[/link]
    Author(s): [link=http://boards.theforce.net/ASP/user.asp?usr=Killik_Twilight]Killik_Twilight[/link]
    Timeframe: Just after Dark Journey
    Characters: Jagged Fel, Shawnkyr
    Keywords: Challenge
    Summary: Kyrn has a suggestion for her commanding officer
    Notes: Written for the Jag/Kyrn challenge


    Okay guys, I want to see more entries...think of all the play room. :)

     
  13. Flaming_Sword

    Flaming_Sword Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Hey, Just wanted to drop by see what was here. I'm totally for Jag and SHawnkur. He needs someone...I'm a strong K/Jer, and I feel bad for Jag at times! So kudos to the two of them!
    ~Flame
     
  14. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005

    Welcome, Flame! We'd love to hear your thoughts on this dynamic relationship, and we're happy to add another to our ranks!
     
  15. Elena

    Elena Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Update time! Three new stories, three new authors in the index - go and look at them!

    Elena
     
  16. SakuraTsukikage

    SakuraTsukikage Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2005
    What is this? Has this thread died? This is unacceptable to me--I am interested in discussing this relationship, friendship or otherwise. LIVE AGAIN!!!!
     
  17. Elena

    Elena Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2003
    *giggles* Well, if someone still wants it...

    Get me my defribulators, stat!

    Anyway, joking aside, why do you like Jag/Kyrn?
     
  18. TheCrazyRodian

    TheCrazyRodian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2004
    I'm with Inara on this one--we tend to dismiss non-human cultures in the GFFA because we read everything from a rather human-centric viewpoint. And, to be honest, the profic attempts at non-human POV are largely terrible (excepting Nom Anor, who is a delightful character). I suppose if you delve into the Tales books, you get a handful of stories from odd perspectives, but I don't know how good too many of them are. It's been a while since I've read them, and the only one I remember thinking was really good was the one about the wolfman and the lamproid, which was a bit of a drug trip or something. I dunno.

    Anyways, what I'm trying to say is this--the Chiss have two strikes against them in the habits of our minds as readers. First, they are not human, so everything about them seems so foreign to us. Second, they are a very formal culture that is more aligned with most Imperial values than Rebel values.

    But there is something noble and good about Chiss culture, despite their portrayal as cold and unfeeling.

    When we were introduced to Jag and Shawnkyr, I was intrigued from the start. I mean, it took me a while to warm up to Jag as a legitimate character, considering he seemed at first to be the most contrived character since Xixor. But as soon as we saw friendship between Shawnkyr and Jag--and I mean friendship, beyond that of fellow officers, and it's there, trust me--I was hooked. I thought it was fascinating that Shawnkyr would be so loyal to Jag, and so trusting of his judgement, when all portrayals of Chiss culture dictated loyalty to regulations more than to individuals.

    So even though Jag and Jaina had their romance during the war, and even though I was pulling for them to work out, I still had the thought lurking in the back of my mind, that Shawnkyr might be sweet on Jag. Her confrontation of him in Dark Journey especially fed my unwitting suspicions. And especially after Jaina kind of dumped on Jag at the end of the NJO, I wasn't so sure that that relationship was going to work out anymore.

    And then I stumbled across Friends No More, which has converted me to Jag/Shawnkyr-ism. Honestly, I'd rather see Jag with Shawnkyr than with Jaina at this point.

    And I think, honestly, that Jag and Shawnkyr together makes for a much more interesting story than Jag and Jaina. Like I said, Shawnkyr seems more loyal to Jag than to anything else, and in the context of what we see as Chiss culture, that is extraordinary. Not impossible, but extraordinary.

    And at the very least, a close friendship between Jag and Shawnkyr brings up a lot of the same interesting issues of duty, affection, emotion, attachment, reliance, et cetera.

    Anyway... I figured I'd chime in on this thread, as an unashamed J/S-er.
     
  19. SakuraTsukikage

    SakuraTsukikage Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2005
    Heh. I pretty much agree with The Crazy Rodian. For myself, I love friendship stories of all kinds, and I also love the sort where friendship might turn into romance. Shawnkyr's loyalty to Jag intrigued me and made me appreciate her character quite a bit--and I already love the Chiss [face_love]. And Jag's interaction with her definitely helped me see him as a deeper, more sympathetic character who is, in fact, awesome. I like Jag/Jaina, but right now in profic I don't want to see them get together--I think it is still possible, but I'd rather not see it, actually. I'd rather see Jag with Shawnkyr, who at least has always been loyal to him and treated him with the selfless friendship Jaina never gave him. Another thing I like about Shawnkyr is that she is very much an equal for him, a strong female character in her own right. I'm not saying that Jaina isn't, but in some ways Jaina is more immature than Jag, and doesn't understand his value system. Shawnkyr does, and matches it, and she's willing to give his human side a chance in friendship--why not in something more?

    Plus the Chiss are totally awesome, and Chiss combined with a Fel, any Fel, in any way equals much [face_love] from me. ;) :p
     
  20. Cleg4359

    Cleg4359 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2006
    I love their close friendship. I wish there was more Shawnkyr in profic. One of the things I like about their friendship is Shawnkyr isn't afraid to let Jag know when his feelings get in the way of his decision making. She's always around to make sure he doesn't act to human and forget his Chiss roots. As for them as a couple, I'm not sure about that. I admit I don't know how the chiss veiw relationships, but I bet it's not quite the same as humans do. The cultural differences between the two is why I don't think a relationship would work.
     
  21. Killik_Twilight

    Killik_Twilight Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2005
    Honestly, I see the relationship between Jag and Kyrn as friendship ? no more. While I read Inara's FNM (and btw, let me tell you ? awesome fic), I think Jag in profic sees Kyrn the way I see many of my female friends ? as simply good friends. I've never even considered anything else about them, because their friendship is what's important to me ? nothing more. I think Jag considers Shawnkyr a close friend ? someone he can turn to in time of need ? but I can't see him feeling anything more for her. *shrug*

    KT
     
  22. SakuraTsukikage

    SakuraTsukikage Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2005
    Really, the greatest thing about their relationship is that it works so well as simply a friendship, I think. As far as I'm concerned, better to have a close, real, meaningful friendship built up over the years, in which you truly understand and care about the person, than a brief physical fling, no matter how strong the feelings in the fling might be. I can see them either together or just as friends--that's sort of what I like about them.
     
  23. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    [face_dancing][face_dancing]

    This thread is still alive!!!

    I will return with a more meaningful post, after I take care of a less one fun one.
     
  24. Inara

    Inara Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Okay, back.

    I just wanted to make a few quick comments.

    I fell in love with this pairing quite accidently, actually. I started writing Jag/Kyrn as a challenge, and the more I wrote it, the more I decided I liked it. Though I wouldn't quite call myself a hardcore supporter of the pairing, I will admit I like Kyrn better with Jag than Jaina.

    I think that the word friendship is very apt in describing this pairing. It can be read as simply friendship or as a friendship, and that's what I like about it. Jag and Kyrn have a relationship rooted in past history as well as a commonality of outlook. A relationship can work with either of the two, but they have both.

    Shawnkyr, from the moment she was first introduced, was shown to be a renegade Chiss, a forward thinking and broad-minded one. For someone like her, a member of Thrawn's household phalanx, it's entirely possible that her opinions on humans are quite different than the rest of her Chiss peers.

    At the very least, the potential is there. And what is fanfic good for but to exploit potential? ;)
     
  25. SakuraTsukikage

    SakuraTsukikage Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2005
    My thoughts exactly. The potential is definitely there--and almost endless. ;)
     
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