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Lit The Future Dies Tonight: It's the Legendary 181st Imperial Discussion Group Legacy Marathon!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grey1, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Hm, how to clarify. Anakin Skywalker had issues, its just that the Clone Wars (and Palpatine) really messed him up. By the end, he wanted to be powerful enough to "protect" his wife from anything, and controlling everything, for the sake of order. Cade on the other hand doesn't have that kind of obsession. As a pirate and even later on with Krayt pressuring him, he's just not interested in the "join the darkside and rule the galaxy!" sales pitch. Which is one of Cade's good points. Its not a problem right now, just by later on, when there's plenty of other characters fighting against the Sith and we're still stuck with long arcs with Cade, while the rest barely get oneshot issues here and there.

    Cade's issues were believable and sympathetic, just unfortunately for him, as Luke said, his destiny will come find him, no matter what, which kind of leans towards making the Force really annoying. Things usually work out, with an all-guiding energy field, but that doesn't make the losses along the way hurt any less.
     
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  2. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I've always felt Jariah was a punk and Deliah (and Morrigan, now that I think about it) are over-sexualized, but I do like the Imperial Knights and Jedi characters, generally, and Hondo Karr. And I confess that, like I said, I didn't read the entire series, so I probably would've liked them a lot more if I'd actually read the entire thing through.
     
  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    You will read the series.
     
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  4. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    It's pretty rare at this point, isn't it? It would probably be rather expensive to get all of it.
     
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  5. Cracian_Thumper

    Cracian_Thumper Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2015
    There's always Marvel Unlimited...
     
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  6. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Where there is a will, there is a way.
    Marvel will probably release it as part of its Mavel Epic Legends collection eventually.
     
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  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    There's three books which are pretty small manga-sized collections that are really cheap omnibuses.
     
  8. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The 3 hardback omnibuses of the original series cost less than 10-11 separate TPB's do.
     
  9. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I checked Amazon but couldn't find the hardback omnibuses. I've seen Volume I in a Hastings before but it's been a while and I can't remember if they still have it. Barnes and Noble, maybe...
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  12. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Oh, thanks, don't know how I missed those! Man, they're expensive in hardcover. May have to invest in them at some point (after I've financially recovered from Christmas :p).
     
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  13. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Didn't get a B&N gift card or something?
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    In America, they cost about as much as the actual trades but have the benefit of being like 5 or 6 trade''s content.
     
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  15. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Ah, the holidays... where was I?

    #8: Allies!

    Another backstory issue for those infected with prequelitis. It does flesh out the Imperials and the Sith, and both are at the disadvantage of being a bit dense. The Imperials think they're smart and get one-upped by the Sith who simply pull a brute move. There's also an interesting thing going with the Sith and their betrayal/control dynamic, especially since these claim to be Communist Sith. Still, some are more the same than others, and Krayt is obviously the samest.

    Krayt does go for Jacen's crotch move, though, so he's both clearly a figure of destiny and... could it be... could Jacen end up as a Sith-Vong-monster in the future? Radical...

    #9: The Trust Issue!

    This is the big introduction to Morrigan Corde, so all I'm gonna say is OMG 80s. Her being an oversexualized Hunter-Killer-Aerobic entity doesn't entirely manage to distract from the fact that this issue has teeth-kickingly bad art. Especially in the many teeth-kicking scenes.

    Having the Alliance-Empire-negotiations on the Wheel is a nice Marvel callback, but it's all sideshow to Corde's complicated plan of making that spy guy not trust her. She probably wanted to kick some teeth in, that's it.

    I'm still confounded that Cade Skywalker apparently was raised as a mystery child, with nobody in the galaxy recognizing him enough to connect him to the suspiciously short name he didn't change. Would have helped if Ostrander had put even a single line in like "man you've changed, is that even your nose?" or "Cade is the most common name you've never heard before!"

    In retrospect, the CAREFUL REVANFAN IT'S A SPOILER! Corde-Calixte twist is a tiny bit more obvious since Corde is "back in the game", but that line really doesn't give anything away except for this being a 40+ woman being highly talented in the teeth-kicking spy department. What's even better at hiding the twist is that I'm not sure how her goals line up over the next ten issues (and the rest of the series). We should take a flowchart and make sense of her strategy to find out what she really wants - a bit like trying to find the bad stuff Vergere did in SBS and finding out that everything she did was actually pretty good. Either way, Corde's a fashion disaster in any of her incarnations and based on her actions she's definitely not a character I'd root for anytime soon. Is a character like her more popular with the "we need more 40+ female action heroes" crowd? And is all this badly-drawn violence and over-the-top cleavage-outfit-and-cynicism stuff something from modern superhero comic books?

    By the way, I'm not really sure anymore, but I think this was the first Legacy issue I ever read (except for #0). I thought that entering a series at a later point should always be in the cards, as that's what you often do when you're younger. I'm not sure what I would have liked about Legacy based on this issue. The Wheel? The Imperial Knight craziness? The actual issue that sold me on the series was the one with Mara in it, but that's still two months away.

    #10: okay, it was actually called Trust Issues.

    OK, Corde - OMG sexist cleavage drawings. Which gives her the better deal compared to Stazi, who's simply an old bag of Duros in his first appearance. He reeeally looks down and out here, which doesn't actually give any kind of agency to that whole Alliance angle. He's fooled by the Sith anyway, so based on the fact that he wasn't meant to have a big part as he actually turned out to have, I wonder if the Alliance was actually going to appear much or if it was going to end as a good stormtrooper toy vs bad stormtrooper toys who's-your-Emperor decision.

    Draco and Ganner don't do much here, either, except for getting fooled and using weapons where they shouldn't use weapons. We'll get back to that, but Draco really isn't the brightest saber on the belt.

    Now, Corde's plan - was it a plan? Bring the spy guy someplace else to kill him there in case he's not to be trusted? What if he could have been trusted, wouldn't she have killed him then? But what would she have done then? Locate Cade and then do nothing anyway, in the hopes that spy guy is nice enough to understand? Is this some piece of information gathering for her Calyxte persona, which she won't actually use (as in, redirecting the Sith star destroyer nagging Ossus a few issues later, or giving out hints to have the Sith bring Cade to her to Coruscant)? Or is it really just a fake plot to have us readers gather the information that Corde is Cade's mother and that this family really looks dysfunctional now, with Kol's decolleté being a bit more tasteful than his taste for women? Anyway, Cade's at Ossus! I wonder how that will turn out.
     
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  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think Legacy is one of my favorite collections of Star Wars and definitely ranks up there with Knights of the Old Republic (in all its incarnations) as well as the Republic comics. It was ambitious, interesting, and had a huge amount of interesting stuff going for it. I loved its characters and its writing. Unfortunately, I do believe it suffered from something which really derailed the comic and never quite recovered from it as it was an idea which looked good on paper but hit exactly the sweet spot to irritate a bunch of fans.

    Cade Skywalker is, 100%, the Small Universe Syndrome Hero.

    You can see it with Star Wars: The Force Awakens and the fierce debate over whether they want X character to be the child of Luke Skywalker. Group A wants X character to be the child of Luke Skywalker and the hero because it’s a generational storyline with them at the heart of it. Group B wants X character to not be the child of Luke Skywalker and the hero because it’s a bigger universe than that.

    Here’s the problem, Cade Skywalker is axiomatically the hero of the galaxy. He’s the hero of the story because he is. This despite the fact he doesn’t want to be the hero, there’s a bunch of other people who want to be the hero, and everyone else’s struggles are rendered inert because everything rests on him.

    This wouldn’t be quite so bad if not for the blindingly obvious fact Roan Fel and Marasiah Fel are both Skywalkers themselves through the female line. There’s never any explanation why Cade Skywalker is stronger than them or why Marasiah Fel can’t march up to kill Krayt herself. She has the same blood of the Chosen One running through her veins. Is Super-Force-Powerz in the Y chromosome? Is it only through the male lineage that heroism flows?

    I *LIKE* Cade Skywalker, which I never thought I would because I was a crazy Luke fanboy but weirdly, I’d love to follow his adventures in the same way Ania Solo’s adventures follow this game: nothing at all to do with the stakes of the galaxy as a whole. I would love to see Cade Skywalker tooling around the galaxy shooting up the place. He’s, however, a terrible character for leading because the narrative is, “Man up. You have no choice but to accept your destiny as a hero.”

    Which is BORING and offensive since free-will should play a big role in Star Wars.

    If Cade doesn’t want to save the galaxy, then let Mariasiah or Wolf or Shado, or Ganner.
     
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  17. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    #11: Ghosts!

    Duurseema is back! With - a cover. Urgh.

    Big stuff for this issue is obviously bringing in Mara Jade. This issue actually came out in the same month that Mara died in Sacrifice, May 2007. Makes you wonder if she was chosen for this as a homage, and if Ostrander could even have found out about this? Well, if not officially, I'd assume he'd written her in based on rumours, not giving anything away by using her in a way that makes sense either way. Or does it simply tie in with the Sacrifice cover that had been revealed some time before? And again, wouldn't it have been radical if Mara, about to be killed by Jacen, would have a hand in influencing her decendant in taking down Krayt-Jacen? Radical...

    Anyway, more big stuff tying Legacy into the "proper" EU includes Vader/Anakin and K'Kruhk, the latter being something of an insider joke here. Didn't someone come up with a joke that had K'Kruhk and his freakin' sweet hat pop up in the future, about to explain to Lukehow he hid all those years? Before Legacy actually used him? Anyway, him having died "any number of times" works with him still being around. But more importantly, unlike Mara, who won't tie into the fall of Krayt-Jacen, K'Kruhk sets up the idea of Republic era characters still kicking around, leading to the actual Krayt reveal (even if they won't do all that much with that idea in the end).

    And then there's a Vong attack, of course.

    We also get this gem - "Kark this destiny sludge!"

    Okaaaay...

    #12

    The Vong are keepers of Jedi stuff, which gives a bit of backstory on the Ossus project (and Kol as a more interesting guy than Cade) but doesn't really power-up our heroes. They're also the keepers of Artoo, which is a bit over the top, but hey, 3PO was built by Anakin, so who am I to complain. Not having changed his exterior in any way makes him stand out, a bit, though. They could have given him a red leg or something. Anyway, where's 3PO? Is he really supposed to be one of the impaled droid heads in that early issue?

    In addition, Legacy goes full-SW by setting Cade up for an Empire-style "stop my training, save my friends" trap.

    So, that was the first year of Legacy. Taking us from the end of Ep3 to the end of Ep5's second act (leaving Dagobah), without any of the big battles happening or any characters besides Cade really being important enough to gain a story arc.
     
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  18. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Okay, one idea I'd like to discuss is "We take what is given" as the central message Legacy is working with, and against. Cade's entire arc will be that of the character who can't deny his destiny of removing that one Sith guy. He can deny being part of the hierarchies, though. He denies being Jedi or Sith. Whatever people say he is, he's not (since 2006)

    As we'll see, nearly all if not all of the characters in Legacy struggle with that conundrum: being given orders and having to live (and die) with following them. The One Sith are supposed to neatly fold in under Krayt as much as the Jedi fold in under their council and the will of the Force. The Imperial Knights are supposed to be following their orders as blindly as all the troopers. The Empire rips apart under the weight of the question which authority the individuals should (blindly) follow. The Imperial Mission sides with the Sith out of opportunism. Corde leaves Kol because she's given orders that she doesn't want to question for an uncertain future. Stazi is ordered to take the surrender that is given. Azlyn is forced to stay with the Imp Knights, and Ganner is being told by her that their relationship would go against workplace conditions as much as Draco's relationship with Marasiah goes against Fel family expectations. Even Celeste pops in to visit because doing what has to be done is her thing. The list goes on and on.

    Krayt appears to have some more agency, modelling the galaxy according to his vision; this eventually makes him the biggest villain of all. Still, his life story reads like something he just slipped into; happens to survive Order 66, stumbles into Sith cave, stumbles into Vong captivity. He has to work with the cards that are dealt to him and strangely enough, he ends up putting his own spin on it with the One Sith idea, that cocky rebel. Roan Fel could be seen as someone else who takes orders from nobody, spiralling out of control to get his old status quo back. He's working with "that which is given" to him to get back "that which was given" to him originally: the only position he can ever hold. Stazi brings the Rebel back into the Alliance, and even then he's still about to die with his ship out of "what is given" traditions.

    So, the way I see it, Legacy shows us a world in which "young rebels" (quite a few of them actually being the older guys) form the universe, and all the regular types who just keep the shop running in a conservative way end up being playthings in a downward spiral. Which is a new, somewhat more and somewhat less explicit way of depicting Lucas' original youthful rebellion theme.
     
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  19. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    #13: Ready To Die!

    ...in which nobody is truly ready to die, since they've all got plans for dinner that include feasting on their enemies. And look, Emperor Fel is apparently at Pig's Bay! Or some other bay.

    This issue is one of those wonderful one-offs that doesn't only give a round plot for one setup, but then provides a foil for that as well. Here, we see the Sith mook "pacifying" a planet, setting him up as a good choice for the infiltration mission. The POV switches effortlessly from the planet leader guy (being replaced by someone arranging himself with "what is given") to Sith mook, and eventually to Fel ("our hero", who gladly can hod his own against a brutal Sith and is not just some robe-wearing politician guy depending on action man assistance) before going in for the "Fel did this and that" epilogue. Yes, being the enemy of the big Sith villains and Krayt, Roan Fel is our hero by default here. Especially since we still want to cut him some slack based on Jag and Jaina. Now, what a move to pull the rug away from under our feet by having Fel do something evil - even if it's done in teichoscopy and we can deny that he truly did it, it's obvious that he did. And that Imperial power does corrupt. Well, Stazi and his band of merry rebels are never going to do something controversial, are they? The Famous Fel Slaughter - Gotta love those Imperials.

    It's nice to see a newly developed planet in the beginning, but the children being dogs is such a strange idea that I have to wonder if the artist took a wrong message from the author's notes. You could imagine some transformation going on, but here there's just too much visual disconnect. Maybe if we'd gotten a species of werewolves like the Shistavanen...

    Most interesting lesson of this issue: assassination plots are so basic that you can do two of them on very few pages without it seeming rushed.
     
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  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Roan Fel seems to have the weird idea he can out ruthless the Sith, which is a losing strategy.

    Fel: I executed 30,000 Imperial crew members!

    Sith: Awww, that's cute.
     
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  21. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Yay, Stazi! I forget, was Stazi and the GA originally meant to be just cameos, or they were just meant to show up later ? They're not mentioned much in the original #0 issue (I think), but that could be due to spoilers, and # 1/2 had more on them, but that could have been due to positive feedback. Though overall the Jedi and GA are mostly sideline stuff, unfortunately, whereas Cade and the Fel Empire characters are the central players.

    Its too bad Cade doesn't really have a choice in being the hero. He's bitter and cynical (understandably so), but short of forming a "Kill Krayt squad", which might not be a Jedi or heroic thing to do, there's not many other direct ways of dealing with Krayt. In the OT, Luke worked great as "The Hero" because he was the one person in the galaxy who could reach that last shred of humanity in Vader. (Well, technically Leia could too, but Luke was the one talking with Obi-wan and who had fought Vader at Bespin and all that).

    In Legacy, Cade's healing lightning is what links him to Krayt, being just what Krayt needs to survive longer. Though much later on, even that ceases to be useful, so then it just comes down to "destiny", unfortunately. Its contrived encounters like that (and free will possibly not mattering) that lead to crazy people like Kreia trying to destroy the Force.

    Way back when, sidestory issues like these seemed to hint at so much more to come- Stazi and the GA Core Fleet at least were developed more. The prequel issue shows that Veed really is a moron and Calixte isn't quite as clever as she thinks, siding with Sith never ends well. Calixte vs. Maladi was shown briefly, with how "Corde" tries to keep Cade out of Sith hands, out of love/sentimentality and to just spite the Sith in general. Too bad Maladi's hints about a more subtle way of killing Roan Fel never came about. Unless you count her offering a too good to be true bioweapon as her way of ruining him. Hm, come to think of it, that might be a great way to think of it.

    And yeah, Cade's idea of "disguise" is simply not to tell people his last name :rolleyes: . When he was originally picked up by Rav, he didn't have time, but since then? Its more Cade being lazy/whiny/emo. Which is made even more funny/annoying when later on Bantha said Cade should/would have to change everything (his name, his face, his hair, his associates, his ship) if he really wanted to hide.

    It was nice to see the Vong at least were very grateful to the Jedi for all the Jedi had done for them, that was one of the best parts of Legacy- building on what had happened in NJO, letting at least a few decades pass so it doesn't seem too rushed, we got to see rehabilitated Vong.

    I hadn't read the Republic comics at the time K'kruhk showed up (Legacy and KotOR were my first monthly comics), so didn't really care about him. Though his appearance unfortunately never led to much, and its only a minor complain, but having K'kruh, A'Sharad and that tree lady all show up was a bit too many references to Clone Wars Republic comics, and not enough Luke NJO. I do still wish they could have thrown in a Horn or Durron, but those were book characters, so I know it was probably easier/safer not to reference them (neverk now when the novels might have killed Corran's kids).
     
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  22. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    That was easily one of the best things Legacy did. I also thought it was very Jedi to back the Vong's atonement offerings.

    Time was needed for the Vong to come to understand what they gad done, in order to even make an offering of help as atonement for their ancestors' rampage.
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I get the impression from the awesome bits Ostrander shared with us that Cade Skywalker was meant to be the sole focus of the narrative for the most part. It's just people really-really wanted to see the Sith get their butts handed to them.

    Which Gar Stazi does in droves.

    It kind of took them off guard, I think.
     
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  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    One of things I can't not see in TFA - I'm not considering ship design to really constitute any kind of spoiler, was in the trailer 6 months ago after all:

    Legacy's Pellaeon-class SD:

    [​IMG]

    TFA's Resurgent-class SD:

    [​IMG]

    Definite design similarities.
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Cade needs to be the hero because he carries on the name, because he's not an Imperial Knight, and most of all because he doesn't want to be the hero.

    I also don't think Cade's identity is treated as particularly secretive. Most people wouldn't recognize him a decade later, grungy, and hiding among thieves in the outer rim - but the Imperial Knights know who he is.
     
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