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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Future Dies Tonight: It's the Legendary 181st Imperial Discussion Group Legacy Marathon!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Grey1, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I go to sleep for half a day and then there's like 20 posts. Figures. Though these are my favorite issues of the series.

    Cade is an annoying protagonist, especially once we find out he's not the last Skywalker (not even counting the Fels, and not sure if their relation to Jaina was ever officially said in universe, though Jagged was cited as the first Fel Emperor). He's such a bad boy, yet he doesn't kill Rav, who really deserves it. Come on, he's supposed to be part-Han, just shoot the guy, instead Cade leaves him alive and still even trusts him, which will come back and bite him later on.

    Bantha at least looks somewhat different, but he's also still kind of well-known. At least his life still looks far more moral than Cade "I want to buy some deathsticks" Skywalker. Though it raises questions of why Cade was so down in the dumps in the initial arc if there was an uncle he could have taken shelter with, or at least an uncle to scold him (I think the #0 issue reference how Bantha helped build a lot of Cade's custom stuff, like his blaster and ship).

    I love the Indomitable arc, Mr. Ostrander is a great writer and all, but Legacy's focus and obsession with Cade was always kind of annoying. The OT era is the most popular, with the most stories and media and such, with many other eras trying to copy it, and often not doing a good job. At least Legacy is set relatively far enough in the future that the dust from previous wars is allowed to settle (unlike NJO and LotF and FotJ which were all kind of rushed and made for some really miserable decades). While I still would have preferred another century (due to LotF extending human lifespans already, as an excuse to keep Han and Boba as main characters at their age), Legacy still felt like enough time had passed for another huge war and status quo change. A chance to get back to the Empire vs. Rebels setting the public so loves, with enough background information to justify why the Empire is in charge again (especially compared to Caedus basically taking over the GA and turning it into the Empire in all but name in about a month).

    Yet we barely get to see that Empire vs. Rebels struggle in Legacy. Sidestory issues here and there, but Cade's the focus. That was one of the unfortunate parts of Legacy. Here we have dozens of characters (IKs, GA, Mon Calamari) ready to fight for the galaxy and instead most of the series is about Cade's whining. Yeah, he's had an unpleasant life, but we don't need to keep seeing him keep take one step forward, two steps back. And as a side note, it might just be Ostrander likes writing about those kinds of characters- they're not the exact same, but there are some similarities between Quinlan, Cade and what's his name from Dawn of the Jedi, that Rakata sleeper agent. Too bad I don't like those characters.

    Stazi is definitely clearly pro-active and mostly heroic. He's been holding together the Core fleet since the GA collapsed after the Imperial victory, yet he's aware that's not enough, just scrounging for supplies. Hondo Karr turned out to be another surprise recurring character (I think the Noob issue was originally thrown in to fill a scheduling error?), though sadly his subplot was left incomplete. Stazi almost has a martyr complex, or rather, he'd prefer to be a dead perfect leader, as living leaders can disappoint. On another note, I do wish the Imperious had been a Super Star Destroyer, or at least much more powerful than a regular Pellaeon-class, but guess that would disrupt the status quo a bit too much. Also renaming it to the Alliance is a little bit awkward (this is the Galactic Alliance ship the Alliance). I understand the sentiment, but... yeah.

    I also loved the art in the Indomitable. Ms. Duursema is a pretty good artist, but she's better with people rather that ship battles. That shot of the Imp fleet springing their trap, love it. Not to mention the flashback to the Battle of Caamas. I'm glad they manage to retain him (his name escapes me at the moment, think he did the ME comics too?) for most of the GA sidestory issues.

    Treis Sinde is another great character- IK, but without the arrogance we see from most of the rest, more like an older Ganner. Though this is probably an example of why its dangerous to have multiple resistance groups work independently, never know when their plans will collide with each other. And ouch, the Mon Calamari decimation (I think that's the proper use of the term?) is brutal, probably one of the more overt signs that this is a Sith Empire. I don't blame Stazi too much for it, if resistance fighters had to hold back for fear of any reprisals, those kinds of war would never get anywhere. Though it does indirectly give Stazi more support eventually.

    Doesn't help that Krayt is in a bad mood after losing Cade, and dragging out the Mon Calamari genocide just makes it worse in a way. More chance to save lives, but it also draws a lot of anti-Sith attention to that planet. And speaking of Cade, he's still running, and not doing a very good job of hiding. Bantha and his family thought Cade and friends were just coming for a visit, then turns out Cade's at the top of the galaxy most wanted list, and they just let some Black Sun goons escape earlier, talk about careless on Cade's part.

    Azlyn was at first an interesting character, originally being Jedi but then joining the IK after the Jedi were wiped out, as well as her old relationship with Cade. And I thought zeltrons were open to multiple relationships, but apparently Cade is just so... something, Deliah is getting jealous. Too bad, might have been funny for Cade to get a harem or something. Too bad that ends badly too later. And nice to see Marasiah up, back then it seemed there was a chance she would become a major recurring character (unfortunately not).

    Then after this is the Hidden Temple arc, though in retrospect I wonder how much of the Hidden Temple was added in later. I forget if #0 or .5 hinted at it. Here we have this hidden Jedi refuge, so secret that most of the Jedi never even found out about it (as it had been put together near the end of the last war, so no time to tell people where to run), yet Bantha knew about it (formerly being a high-ranking Jedi, being a Skywalker and all) and he never told Cade about it, ever (not that Cade would be interested, but still). Fat lot of good that Hidden Temple does (we find out later K'kruhk knew about it too, but didn't bother to tell anyone until after the roof falls on them).

    EDIT: And wow, Grey1 is on a posting spree today.

    Back then, around issue #25 (right before the big Vector crossover, that was a big thing that year, especially since there were actually four ongoing series to have a crossover go through), I was expecting Legacy to last until maybe issue #70, or even #100, at the rate Cade was going. I don't mind Cade as not a Jedi, I just wish the plot, er, Force, didn't keep making him the designated hero. Wolf says he has a vision of a Skywalker defeating Krayt, Cade's the last "Skywalker" (not counting Bantha, or the whole Fel family), Cade keeps getting nagged by his dad and ancestor and getting ominous visions, so he just has to do it.

    KotOR concluded decently at #50 (helped that Cade's major struggle concluded at #35, so everything after that was sort of secondary subplot), but Legacy was just... who knows why Legacy was cancelled. This was years before the Disney buyout too, I think. From the great start of KotOR and Legacy in 2006, to Legacy getting an extremely rushed ending. Cade's extremely slow character progress didn't help either though.
     
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  2. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I figure Cade still fears the dark side, and, well, still values life like a Jedi does.
    Ugh, this is heart breaking. Nat telling Cade to come home. Nat offering him the couch, the guest bed, offering to build him a house. Nat fixing the Mynock, building blasters, begging, "Take care of yourself. You're going to get hurt. Stay with us, won't you? Don't you still have your lightsaber? Fine, well at least take this with you. It packs a punch."
     
  3. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    I just want my life back.

    #28: Vector!

    It's time for a warm fuzzy feeling when there's a bit of KOTOR coming around. Non-completists who only read this Vector arc are probably weirded out by general comic book weirdness, but that's crossovers for you. Does this actually work towards making this a smaller universe? Especially since Zayne gets grouped in with three big Skywalker characters, which feels destiny-like enough to open the old barrel of "4000 years removed character is definitely related to the Skywalkers". Imagine if every era, or at least every non-Rebellion era, had gone for a non-Skywalker Jedi character to hang the interaction on. Maybe even switching the talisman to a new character with every series? Anyway.

    The gang conveniently stumbles over a creepy star destroyer because Muur senses a Jedi that he can trade Celeste in for. Which is still convenient stumbling. Cade finds out that the illness he's infected with after a monster bite is an illness, so he has enough information to cure it (he wouldn't have known that he can cure it if nobody had told him it was an illness, so the ability finally appears like a black box machine with an on/off switch, but Cade gets to make a super crappy-snappy wisecrack because of it, so this confusion is possibly worth it). A first: he uses reverse-Shatterpoint through the Power Of Love, which should basically be okay - so it's okay to save people as long as you love them, or as long as you didn't have particularly bad day? All said and done, Celeste and/or Muur are on board with Cade's plan. Onwards!

    #29

    Off to Had Abaddon for the third major episode. This is the ROTJ moment, got it?

    Maybe it's just me, but Devaronians always look kind of stupid. Sometimes they even use some weird faux-ghetto speech. Here, we get a Sith so stupid he's using double reverse grip. Celeste/Muur sends him off infected so he'll be a convincing addition to the holo call she'll make anyway. Nobody talks about this future Rakghoul possibly infecting the entire galaxy, because why bother. Krayt is interested in Celeste/Muur's immortality info, Roan Fel gets info and is interested in having and using a Sith Weapon of Mass Destruction because the question whether you can have a good Empire is finally answered. Draco would do anything for love (and he will do that), Marasiah doesn't get a say in the matter anyway, and nobody listens to The Ganner.

    #30

    Everyone is tempted by The One Ring the talisman. Cade isn't, because Cade doesn't want power. As I said in a post above, yeah right. Cade's psychology is totally compatible with getting his hands on magical bling bling. Revenge, one-upping everybody else, you name it.

    Celeste keeps the lid on Muur, though, so we get a trap for Krayt and his goons that's played as if it could also fool one or two people in the audience. Either way, it's a big fight.

    #31

    Krayt, who found a glimpse of how to heal his Vong ailment because of Muur's immortality power (which explicitly never stopped Muur's body from aging and dying like it stops Celeste from aging and dying), almost dies, but since he falls down a cliff, everyone is sure he must be dead and nobody doublechecks. Azlyn almost dies but gets Cade as life support, which everyone finds weird, but since Cade, who never craves power over others, bullies everyone, they go along with it. Oh, and Celeste demands a mercy kill thing by Cade which is off-puttingly morally gray, as well (especially when there's no option for a mercy suicide for Azlyn later on). Then Cade destroys the talisman because it's basically an illness, but not because daddy established for Cade that he's simply using Shatterpoint and can theoretically destroy any given item.

    I actually like the idea that Celeste goes through the ages looking for the ultimate healer, I still find it strange that Cade is a healer. It really doesn't fit with the bounty hunter/pirate career thing. Why not have him grow up in an Imperial Mission, with extra humbling irony since the Empire's Victory With War destroyed his life? And then have him fall in with a pirate crew? Oh, because that wouldn't have been cool, right.

    Where were we? Oh yeah, Vector Ex Machina killed Krayt. Well, almost, because Darth Willowkk (sp?) is finally home from #27, has a ROTS "my Sithnigficant other needs me" moment and decides to be so loyal that he finishes off "I'm not dead!" Krayt based on some cool one-liner about the dreamer needing to die so that the dream can live on, which is quite some development from #27's loyal personal asisstant who'd do anything for his boss's survival until the dream was realized. Would he even know Krayt's dream if Krayt never bothered naming an heir, always wanting to finish this thing himself?

    Still, Vector came in and killed off Krayt. This could be the series' end, you know. Cade could have learned the purpose of his healing gift; and Krayt's (and his hands') death, combined with the galaxy being fed up with Sith brutality on Mon Calamari, this could have been a complete arc, and with the epilogue of Cade never doing the right thing after all and turning his back on the galaxy, we might have gotten a proper subversive ending for the story of the Skywalker who didn't want to be a Chosen One clone.
     
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  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think Darth Wyrrlok realized Krayt was going insane around Dac's genocide.

    Of course, Sith being Sith, he couldn't RETRACT THE ORDER afterward.

    That would be silly.
     
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  5. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    He couldn't retract the order because Darth Krayt had to appear to still be in charge.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    *gives him a No Prize*
     
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  7. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Krayt should have remained dead.
    I think they axed KOTOR and Legacy to revamp things for DH's 25th anniversary.
    More KOTOR and Legacy would have been awesome.
     
  8. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I have no doubt Krayt was intended to stay dead much longer.
     
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I'm on the side that they should not have brought Krayt back at all.

    Wyrrlokk really altered the One Sith and in doing so he sowed the seeds of its destruction because he lacked Krayt's subtlety.
     
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  10. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Given Krayt's subtlety after his return, I think we're good.

    The thing is, since all of this is about immortality, and since Krayt says he's started on the path of following Muur's immortality trick, it doesn't read anymore as if Krayt is really dead; it does work. The issues after Vector are even pretty ambiguous about Krayt's actual death since Worrlykk (sp?) could just injure him into a coma, put him into stasis and never wake up again. Same effect as keeping the body around.

    But as much as it does work, it really pulls the punch of how grand a moment this was: the actual big bad villain is removed. The game has changed. We do not know where this is going from here because Cade's healing power suddenly isn't of interest anymore. And now there's a bigger fish taking over. Having Krayt as a very iconic, Republic-and-NJO-rooted villain to start this off and then switch over to something else to get another story going was really brave. Having Krayt come back with his secret army of never-before-seen stuff is shrug-worthy. It doesn't connect with the original setup anymore.
     
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  11. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Back then I was still expecting Krayt to break out of his glass coffin eventually (him picking up the healing trick from Muur had to lead to something), but I was hoping it would be much, much later. Having the main villain Krayt removed from the series so early on (if he actually stayed gone) could have been a great twist, even better than the Calixte reveal. Too bad War was kind of... bad, well it was more rushed than anything else. At least KotOR wrapped up properly (with its War miniseries as more like a sidestory/short sequel). And if Krayt was gone, maybe that meant Cade didn't have to face up to his destiny as being the only one who could defeat Krayt and save the galaxy? Maybe the series could focus on more likable characters now? Hmph, no such luck.

    I liked the cover with those four Jedi on there, too bad none of them really play a role until later. Still not a Republic fan so seeing tree lady and K'kruhk and some forgettable Chandra-Fan as an informal council was kind of annoying. If I remember right, K'kruhk knew the location of the Hidden Temple (which is how Shado and Wolf got there), but apparently he didn't feel like going there to help until now. Too bad the Vong couldn't have come along, I forget what happened to them (never thought I would type that). Especially since none of them ever met up with Krayt in person, so Cade's report that he was A'Sharad doesn't really matter much.

    Yeah, that is not a diplomatic entrance. Even worse as eventually it is their fault the Hidden Temple's location is leaked. Cade's plan to kill Krayt is more selfish than wanting to save the galaxy, but still not entirely sure which side I fall on. Cade's being a jerk (again), and Krayt is a threat, but having the Jedi seat back for so long is annoying, despite how few there are left. Though killing Krayt does destabilize things, but its arguable if that's to their benefit. Wonder if they were another group who was only meant to be a cameo (sadly Legacy Volume II is even worse with the Jedi).

    At least Jariah's subplot about hating Jedi was wrapped up, and it was a slightly understandable reason. He was in the wrong, but probably didn't want to think that badly of his father, despite how badly his and Cade's other sort of father figure, Rav, has treated them.

    Ah, Vector, those were the days. More hinting of Shado not being one to talk about Cade's darkness, and more battles. Though it ends up being more convenient for Krayt than anyone else that another ancient "immortal" Sith has popped up, after the last one wasn't so helpful. And of course the big betrayal- guess the "loyal" follower was just waiting for an opportunity. Which funny enough also plays out with Tenebrous, Plagueis and Palpatine in a later published novel, I think.

    Though I think by this point all these clashes with the top Sith (Krayt, Maladi and Talon) were starting to get repetitious. Reverse grips, Cade says "I'm not a Jedi" (I honestly forget if he actually said that this time or not), they clash, some wounds, and no one dies. Well, it looks like Krayt died, but that wasn't really due to Cade (not that anyone else finds out about it until later). I guess its better than having redshirts involved, but especially with how we now know Krayt's not actually dead, it doesn't feel like that decisive a battle. Not even Stryfe dies and he's kind of a minor character too. And that problem persists until the end of War. Well, mainly I'm annoyed Talon isn't dead, she has no personality (though I know why she's always on the covers :rolleyes: ). Aside from Celeste finally being able to die, though the attempt to tie Zayne in is kind of weak (seeing Ms. Duursema's version of Zayne was interesting).

    I liked Azlyn somewhat, but too bad her return to Cade's life doesn't really help him with his issues much, actually it makes them worse.
     
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  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It works - particularly on a re-read, but at the time? Killing off Krayt was a radical and unexpected move and bringing Krayt back later really undermined it.
     
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  13. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Was I the only one who felt Wyrrlok was a more intelligent, threatening, and powerful villain?
     
  14. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Well, it's true that the basic way to read this should be face value; this is Chekhov's resurrection power. If you set it up, use it. What I applauded back then, and what others seemed to have liked about it as well, was the twist of removing the main character. Which, apparently, was the straightforward way of thinking about this stuff back then: a twist will be a twist. Who could have known that the better twist for a twist-savvy audience is to turn the twist into a no-twist?

    I really, really loved getting rid of Krayt after two and a half years. A lot of Legacy started to get stale by then, and if you consider that the big gamechanger was Celeste crossing over from KOTOR, it looks even more embarassing for Legacy. Sheesh, get you thing together, Legacy.

    I'm not there yet, but from what I remember, War's biggest problem was that it suddenly wanted to do a lot of new stuff, stuff that 12 issues possibly wouldn't have been enough for. They possibly tried to cram Krayt's resurrection in even though taking what they were given and creating a trapdoor alternative ending as a backup might have resulted in something far greater. Why not mop up the One Sith by infighting and then do dark side Roan as the final villain? That would have been a huge story, but one only working with what's there. Not with a third Empire coming out of nowhere. But I'm getting ahead.

    My point is that Legacy got the message that it would end by #50, and they didn't boil everything down quickly enough. Then they get 6 more issues, and the first thing they do is make everything more complicated. In comparison, KOTOR sped up the Crucible plot by cramming a lot into a few exposition-heavy issues, tying up Jarael's arc in the process, and land on its feet for a proper Rohlan-and-Jarael finale. The War issues were simply overkill bonus, which is why people had a problem with them: Everything's tied up so well that a simple one-off with Zayne feels off. With Legacy, they got a cookie and wanted to decorate it as a cake with a gallon of icing and 50 candles.
     
  15. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Honestly, KotOR's ending doesn't feel that rushed to me. It helps that Zayne's story was basically done partway through the series, so plenty of time left for Jarael's plot. I know KotOR War wasn't up to standards, though it doesn't help that by then Zayne had matured so much he was almost invincible (genre saavy enough to use his luck to his advantage and plan on Gryph's level, the student has surpassed the master ;) ). I didn't mind so much, but I understand why its not that popular. But that's off-topic.

    Krayt's early exit was really a chance to see just how united Krayt's One Sith Order was. Some like Stryfe or Talon never show much independent thought, honestly being very devoted to Krayt. The next most noteworthy Sith, like Maladi and Nihl, barely had time to begin planning before Krayt returned, with yet another army. Funny enough, more recently SWTOR just used that (the top Sith shows up with a whole other army). Wyrrlok (I can never remember how to spell that name right, ugh) could keep up the charade for a while, but too bad that plot didn't have more time.

    While Legacy's #50 was written with War in mind, and of course the writing wasn't planning for a rushed ending, the rushed ending just felt really annoying after how slow the Tatooine arc was. Luke's been nagging Cade for some time, Kol shows up to nag Cade a bit, Uncle Bantha nags Cade, and none of it really makes an impact on Cade. To get back on topic, by the Vector crossover Legacy was starting to drag a bit, and while this is jumping ahead, the Tatooine arc felt really stretched out, so having that in the last 10 issues really hurt.

    Though really only KotOR and Dark Times really used Vector well. Zayne accidentally gets Cassus Fett to owe him a favor (and Jebble's fate really scares the Mandos about Jedi powers). And it turns out the Uhumele was carrying the oubilette from the very beginning. Too bad Celeste didn't have the willpower to just fly a ship into the sun to get rid of the Muur talisman.
     
  16. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Nope.
     
  17. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    #32: Fight Another Day!

    One of those nice adventures of that nice Imperial Knight with the non-intuitive name. Really, Treis Sinde would have profited greatly from a proper name. In addition, he'd be a better Jedi than a "uh I have to serve that young Emperor guy who doesn't really get all this Force business" Imperial Knight. As others have said before. Again, we explore the stupid realm of loyalty towards some aspect of the Empire; I wonder if any other Civil War has ever been painted in such dramatic emo colours. "Woe, we're on different sides now!" The Mon Cal storyline progresses somewhat good, but having the human Imperial Knight come in with the necessity of seeing the big picture over immediate compassion opens up some colonial thoughts. So those Mon Cal are incapable of understanding the bigger picture thing? Great that there's a smart civilized man around to teach them. A bit more nuance would have been welcome. We also get an underwater Leviathan for continuity service and an underwater AT-AT for craziness.

    #33

    They fight, they sacrifice, they win. The Imperials think they know everything about the stupid compassionate species to be sure they wouldn't pull an Independence Day; So they pull an Independence Day. Once more, the bad guys survive, but so do the good ones. A simple story, a solid book, if nothing outstanding and a bit too much pathos on the sacrifice-and-compassion side.

    Oh, and the Sith finally admit that there's the privileged who don't believe in equality, and those who have to prove themselves who believe in equality. In addition, it becomes even more clear after Talon and Nihl's "what the Lord wants" submission that this Sith Order is a cult based on Krayt. No idea how they keep up the pretense enough to have people like Not-Darth Mengele truly believe in the old Vong crisp; old Sith orders were refreshingly candid about the backstabbing. Back then, you could only be Emperor because you fried everyone who looked at you funny. Here, Krayt shouts at his underlings and they simply eat up the hierarchy, which is what Wyrrlok (got it right!) can put to use for himself so well.

    #34: Storms!

    It's the Vector epilogue when the Sith reorganize themselves, Cade et al reorganize Azlyn, the Felpire deals out some more abuse to their more moral participants and Nat sees a moral problem with a cyborg suit because one cyborg 130 years ago was evil. Cade doesn't want Azlyn to die and unfortunately for her nobody else heard that she's ready and willing to let go. May she become a new Vader...? Because of a suit...? I'm really worried about Cade's pants now. Are they Nat's techno trousers?

    #35

    Cade wants to bust stuff up, which he does. He's close to killing his adopted cousin because there's absolutely no problem with him being on razor's edge; furthermore, there's no way he would want any bit of power. Back home, Azlyn has been turned into a sexy 80s Hajime Sorayama robot but has to lead a pretty crappy life now, which isn't that sexy. Everyone and his uncle hate Cade, so now he wants to turn his back on the galaxy. Again. I'm sure he'll hide pretty well.

    As I said after Vector, this could and maybe should have been an end point for Legacy, if perhaps only for Cade's story to replace him with a new main character who can give a new spin on everything. Maybe, after reliving a twisted Ep4-5-6 story with Cade that ends in the hero of destiny refusing the call once and for all because he's just not the right character to do anything beyond mess things up for Krayt (who's dead now), we could get a twisted Ep1-2-3 story in which Marasiah becomes a big warrior for her Empire only to turn on this Empire in the end, the twist being that she'll "turn good"? Or any other character. Heck, maybe even the Draco series that finally became reality with DOTJ's emo slave boy. Why not reveal Draco as emo former slave boy to have a dark and gritty version of prequel Anakin? He's even in love with a supposedly unreachable princess/queen type.

    Just wanted to get this out of the way. When DOTJ came out, I mentioned how it might be better to aim for a few concise arcs and have an overarching structure instead of aiming for the lucrative 200 issue run - Tales of the Jedi being the obvious model for that, which switched from an exposition arc to a conflict arc and an epic finale arc. Ironically, DOTJ ended up having to do only three arcs, which was good for emo slave boy's story since it didn't drag, but which was obviously not planned since the third arc was much faster and in a different mood. Here in Legacy, not only writing out Krayt but Cade as well would have been a breath of fresh air that everyone felt would have been right the time we hit Tatooine.
     
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  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The thing is, the bigger picture is complete shavit and the Mon Calamari know it. It's akin to a bunch of people in Poland or Stalingrad fighting off Nazis before Churchill contacts their English commando associate to come back to teach future SAS operatives.

    It's a STAGGERINGLY insulting and horrifyingly callous decision by Roan Fel who really doesn't care about the Mon Calamari.

    There's some subtle xenophobia and racism going on but not from Sinde.

    Having had dying relatives, I am 100% on Team Cade here and the idea the Will of the Force chooses when you die is, upfront, evil. It is a vile belief too similar to a lot of real-life fundamentalist churches that I think have killed a lot of innocent people with inaction. I don't think that's what they're going for, though.

    I also, sadly, shipped Cade and Azlyn.

    Sadly, she drops from the book after this which is crap.
     
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  19. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I hope Grey1 doesn't post something else by the time I finish typing this, my timing is always off and hard to catch up.

    Fight Another Day was a nice simple arc, of heroic IK fighting for the Mon Calamari. They all have their obligations, and as an IK he really should be reporting back to protect his Emperor, but he's too nice to abandon the Mon Calamari either. Cool to see underwater combat and leviathan and AT-AT.

    This is where the morality gets weird. We get odd things like "Jedi don't condone assassination", which possibly really became a thing after RotS's "arrest Chancellor Palpatine" mission turned out so badly (and turned up in NJO work and afterwards too in terms of whether Jedi should fight or not, period). Cade saving Azlyn doesn't seem that bad- its not like Cade made deals with any Sith Lords to save her life (which is kind of what Anakin did with Palpatine), or sacrificed children for the energy to keep her alive. It really felt like they were piing on the angst here. Better to let her die? Ok, her eventual cyborg state isn't the most pleasant end, but she's alive and stable and mobile. Being trapped in a box for the rest of her life isn't pleasant, but still. If she hadn't been awake for about a minute in transit it wouldn't have been so bad, but it just felt... convoluted.

    And I also liked the Cade and Azlyn relationship (particularly the past history), Cade slightly improved around her. Not that Deliah was a bad influence, she's been trying to reach Cade for years too. Heck, with how zeltrons usually are, I was almost hoping for a more... open relationship, but the main character engaging in polygamy probably wouldn't fly, even with how much of a "bad boy" Cade is.

    Aside from the Azlyn mess, I also felt like this issue was where Cade was the worst relative. He's always a jerk, but he's also been careless. Like when he visited Bantha for vacation before, right after fighting Krayt, he doesn't bother to immediately tell them that he's on the run from the Sith, it takes a news broadcast to really sink in how much trouble Cade is in- and how he put a target on them too, by visiting.

    Here, he's a guest on his aunt's home planet, and his cousin is one of the local police officers. What does he do? He goes on a drunken rampage, putting her in the position of having to either arrest Cade, or let him go at the cost of her career. Cade's in a really bad mood, but talk about black sheep of the family. Not sure he ever reconciles with them (Cade meets up with Bantha again, but probably not the rest). This is one of the times where I like Jariah as he knocks her out so she won't have to make that tough choice, and instead Cade and crew go on the run again. After Monster everything is really rushed, but sad Cade could never make up with Azlyn, she was one of the ones angriest with Cade.

    I would have loved if the series had semi-permanently switched to someone else. I think there's a GA issue after this, which is a breath of fresh air after Cade. Maybe Cade could have vanished for a long time, until Krayt returned. Sadly, that's not the kind of series Legacy is. This is probably one of Cade's lowest points (childhood friend hates him). I don't think there's any kind of message, implied or not, but some of it just felt like the story just wanted Cade to be wrong and be more angsty.
     
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  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm honestly confused at how Star Wars medicine is so bad Azlyn can't heal herself or be healed.

    As a lightsider, you'd think that'd be possible if not easy.
     
  21. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Definitely not from Sinde. He's from another time, and while they try to point that out, they never get explicit enough. There's this whole arrogance and supremacy thing going on with Imp Knights like Dare and Draco while the concept is basically only Jedi following one wise leader. Which isn't even unlike Luke's Order for a lot of time, or the entire Yoda/Mace thing for the prequel order depending on the author. LOTF-class-retcon: Maybe Jaina decided to keep "her own" Jedi Order under tight control after she realized how much Luke and Mara funked up Jacen's life because of "he's probably in love or something" wishy-washy leadership?

    Well, it's kind of a new concept for SW, but it's the one that the plot is meant to be wrapped around. It's a bit like cloning be available and EU even dabbling in the possibility of body replacements while high-profile characters like Anakin and Luke never clone anything for themselves. [If you go into technicalities too much, you lose the story. Which is my main beef with Darth Plagueis, which is so smart and the same time can't gain momentum.] We need the moment when Cade should let someone go but doesn't; how would that plot be justified if the person in question would go on to a proper recovery? By the way, this technology, this degree of keeping a person alive, being painted as a life in agony demonstrates how Vader's entire life was a non-fun purgatory for his sins. I guess.

    Keeping loved ones alive is a difficult topic to hang this plot on, or any plot. But as much as there's the possibility of proper care being denied because of beliefs, there's the other side which we explore in ROTS (and here) which is not being able to let go when at some point, you have to let go and deal with what's happening in human life. Immortality isn't a thing, except for Artoo. Cade is emotionally unstable and immature; a situation which can send anyone of us off the rails does not only devastate him, it lures him to the dark side by promising him the power to change everything. When his basic trauma is that he couldn't change the outcome of the Ossus Massacre, the worst day of his life. Like Ossus, he says, and that it will never be like Ossus again. But at some point, it will be like Ossus again.
     
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Yeah, I can't help but think it might have gone better if there had been time to revisit it. I also like the idea Azlyn might eventually repair her damaged body or even Cade COULD have finished healing her but couldn't because he only uses the Dark Side and also is untrained with her powers. I do have the impression, though, the Empire disdains cyborgs, though.

    As for the Imperial Knights, I'm going to assume the problem with their system is a very early one which is the fact that they're controlled by the Emperor so he promotes who he wants. Sinde should, by all rights, be Grandmaster of the Imperial Knights but they made Antares Draco into the head of the order instead--perhaps because he's Roan Fel's favorite for some reason.
     
  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Because Fel considers Draco a spineless individual who would never oppose him on anything.....

    Yeah, let's see how that works out for Fel....
     
  24. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    #36: Renegade!

    In one small issue, we get another self-contained Alliance episode in which Stazi proves to have a surprisingly stable moral compass. Legacy proves at the same time that with its convoluted constellations of bad boy Roan's tests, Imp hardliner let's-ruin-everything actions, other Imp-hardliners' willingness to surrender, or not, or maybe never, it just can't make it easy for the good guys. Stazi does the morally right thing, but the entire thing is so much trouble that you come out feeling bad anyway.

    It's a lesson that in an alliance, the allies need to "take what is given", but this goes for both parties, which makes Stazi put his foot down and rebel against the cards he's dealt to make clear what the other side is given when forming an alliance with him. Basically, Stazi is incompatible with this form of the Felpire, but that's no wonder because the Felpire is half of that stupid Empire and Fel only forms the alliance to one-up Krayt. Interesting: Against an invader like the Vong, something like this should be a much clearer deal (and even then the Empire had to play games in the Vong War). But here, since the Empire is in a Civil War with the Alliance being almost completely gone, the Alliance is a completely outside force. And Legacy probably originally wanted the benevolent government gone completely so that Cade could plausible deny collaboration with the authorities. Imagine if there were no Jedi Remnant and no Alliance Remnant; would we truly want Cade to follow his destiny and associate with the Felpire and the Facist Knights like Draco and Dare simply because they're not the Sith?

    #37: Tatooine! Finally.

    I think a lot of people agree that the series hit a brick wall here. It's interesting, because there's a lot about the galaxy's history and Cade's personality in here. The problem is, we always knew that it would go something like this. The message will be "Bad People Have Good Sides", just like Starbuck's killer dad was also a heart-warming PTSD-alcoholic and double-crossing Blue deserves the engine part because the Imperial Mission lives by example, not by sustainablity.

    But I reach ahead. So, Cade got Krayt killed and decided to turn his back on the galaxy. Epic! Now we have to see him turning his back on the galaxy. He's stupid. He's running around using all his abilities and his lightsaber to do pirate stuff. Which should help him fade from view, and which goes along with the idea that he denies every ounce of power offered to him.

    CADE YOU IDIOT

    It's even pointed out how stupid he is when his repeat scheme blows up in his face. Corde has something on her mind once Cade is mentioned; she takes Starbuck along for no good reason. Why give an elite pilot special ops training? And why confront half-brother and half-sister but not lift the veil on the secret? Also, wouldn't Starbuck recognize her freakin' mother if her bounty hunter personality doesn't involve something like a Boushh helmet?

    In further news, when the boys come out packing heat, Blue joins them with a skimpy top. There's a joke in there about weapons of choice, but please let's not dwell on it.

    #38

    Cade on repeat: It's even pointed out how stupid he is when his repeat scheme blows up in his face and when he lets himself get drugged by someone in a cantina.

    Still no idea what Corde is doing here. Syn is a Jedi Prince to make Lit Board regulars chuckle. Emo vampires come along, and I could bet Anzati normally have weird folds on their cheeks, but these here have to look like traces from beauty goth photo shootings. In addition, Starbuck is wearing really tight trousers, possibly spray-painted on, which is normal for special ops following Corde's standards.

    Cade easily falling for a trap and Starbuck being too dumb to properly immobilize her Jedi prisoner is from the school of plot happening because people are dumb. A corner of my brain wonders if this script could've be written by Moffat, put let's not dwell on that either.

    The Imperial Mission subplot is a tiny bit more interesting because it develops more of the setting that's been on the shelf for over three years now. Nicely done: giving good missionary guy's scenes on Tatooine a foil in the brief non-dialogue between Veed and Rus. This good part of the Empire truly is something from a more civilized age and is not truly accepted anymore. Oh, and Veed is offered the position of puppet, which he gladly takes because he's simply a stupid powerhungry guy and not much else. Best day of his life!

    #39

    The Lars homestead survives 130 years because a force-sensitive person of destiny lived there once. 'kay.

    The confrontation about "heroes on both sides" and Starbuck having bought into the "Jedi are evil" propaganda defending her butcher father's reputation, is possibly a lesson on relativity; it gets solved fairly easily, just when Syn amitted that his father was a piece of crèpe. I'm not sure if this way of confronting characters is particularly satisfying.

    Huge Luke vision for Cade. Best part and only part worth mentioning: "You've proclaimed who you are." Yes, we know who you are. Evil Darth Cade *obviously* does a reverse grip while looking mental; but the image of Cade still floating around Ossus on his own is very good. This is exactly what the series needed to put on track. Give one iconic image for his mental state, then have him grow from there. Which never really happened, did it.

    Syn and Corde are written into a piece of dialogue that should logically lead to them wasting time between the sheets. Next to this piece of innuendo, we get lots and lots and lots of straightforward cursing. I wish there'd been more class, and Cade vs Starbuck had read more like a Screwball comedy. Where's the fun in everyone dropping f-bomb equivalents all the time. Cade speak ghetto! But let's not dwell on that.

    #40

    People gonna get killed. Both Cade and Starbuck of the school of people who honestly regret not having had their weapon on kill but follow some kind of the-audience-is-looking code and do not kill a lethal stunned enemy. Corde doesn't hold such high standards, her antidote for the poisoned emo vampire appears to be a fluke. Plus, she kills the Black Sun mobster that Cade would have let live as another open end. See, I'm not saying that morally not killing people is bad - not at all - but the way Cade is written, especially when he regrets not having killed his enemy in the first go, doesn't seem too white-knightish.

    Starbuck has a problem with hierarchies in these ops situations, which is remarkable since she totally brain-off-mode when fighting in a starfighter. She does find out everything about Corde in the end before the whistleblower moff dies so she can't blow the whistle. Does it lead to anything special? Nope. Maybe that would have been important in issues 73-77.

    At the same time, Corde untangles her strange loyalty yarnball, but I still don't get it. Most basic fact: she's loyal to the Empire during the war, but finding out that her secret husband and kid were to be killed would have been enough to not be loyal anymore. What kind of war did she expect the Alliance and Empire, and later the Jedi and Sith were fighting here? Waterbomb fight?

    Bookend: Darth Wyrmork (sp?) reforms the Imperial Mission that we came to love in the Blue arc. Rus has to take the unicycle and the clown shoes and accept that the deal is getting worse all the time, because he's simply taking what is giving, and it's less and less. Wornlook (sp?) proves at the same time that he'll be worse than Krayt, and that Krayt simply couldn't be bothered about removing those Mission hippies from his evil empire. Seeing how Krayt was already a monster but looks like a fairy godmother now promises an over-the-top villain.
     
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  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    BTW, I'm fairly sure Gunn Yage isn't Cade's half-sister but his full sister what with the fact she possesses super-human piloting abilities, an instinctive revulsion of the Sith, her resemblance to the Skywalker lineage, and Calixte is just the sort of woman to pass off the child of Jedi Master Skywalker as his own so she could raise one of her children herself.

    Which would make ANOTHER Skywalker heir who could do things instead of Cade.

    Re: Cade and Power

    I actually have no problem with Cade Skywalker's relatively modest ambitions. He's fine possessing lightsaber skills and the ability to do the Jedi mind-trick. Cade's thing is he's NEUTRAL rather than Good or Evil in D&D terms. He doesn't want to control other people but just wants to enjoy his relatively modest life of tooling around the galaxy, easy sexual partners of questionable taste in men, drugs (or alcohol since he gave those up), as well as living a sleazy but fun life.

    This is an entirely normal thing for staggering number of people in the galaxy. What's wrong with a Skywalker wanting it? He's not a Buddhist who has some spiritual devotion to the idea of lacking power, he's just satisfied with his lot in life. He also doesn't have enough empathy to believe he has to solve the problems of the galaxy.
     
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