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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate The Future of the Republican Party

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jabbadabbado, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    @ Valairy Scot: I'm blushing :).
     
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Well, thank God our national nightmare is over and we can all go to parks again. [face_plain]

    To hell with health care, it's important to have one's priorities straight.
     
    Jedi Merkurian and Vaderize03 like this.
  3. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Yeah, because the parks dont bring in any revenue. :rolleyes: Their priorities are straight. States rely heavily on tourism dollars and they're taking action. NY is also opening theirs too.
     
  4. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Yeah, it's not really that folks like me can continue to hike (snowshoe) in the parks, economy be damned (and as I said, I can't, since Washington is not reopening national parks).

    But the approaches to Mt. Rainier (MRNP), as with the Grand Canyon and many others are near small towns that are heavily dependent on tourist dollars. When the main road to Paradise in MRNP was washed out a few years back, several towns on the road that leads there (and deadends in the park during the winter) suffered. People, my friends, and I'd suspect the majority of them GOP-registered, suffered.

    And quite frankly, that's one reason my brain argues against piecemeal spending bills - you placate the most "outrage worthy" (veterans, etc.) and oh golly, maybe the mean old government isn't quite so mean and nasty. They did the right thing. But then, once those "outrage worthy" are taken care of, what about the rest? It's ok to let them suffer because - well - the ACA and the debt ceiling and the budget - are far more important?

    Then my heart gets involved and says shouldn't we help as many as we can? Vets, children...

    And yes, no doubt we need a talk on entitlements (speaking as someone who's not too many years away from early retirement and expects to work until at least 70 much as I don't want to, who has to rely on Soc Sec for most of her income because there was no pension plan, IRAs or 401ks for a good half of my working life and despite being college-educated, works in a field that wasn't high paying and I lived and do live paycheck to paycheck).

    Maybe this situation is the "best tool" the Tea Partiers have, but it's hardly the most effective (IMHO). Now, in 2 years time, when only a segment of the population has suffered and the spin is only those "living on the government dole and those non-essential lazy federal workers" were affected, but hey, we tried hard to reform those loose spending Democrats and return the good ol' USA to fiscal responsibility...

    No wonder Obi-Wan hated politicians - some of them forget about the consequences of their game playing while trying to score points. (And of course, there are some who truly are ideologically driven and believe "compromise" weakens their purity of position.)
     
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  5. beezel26

    beezel26 Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 11, 2003
    So Cruz just got voted most likely to be called a boob by his own party in the new voters value convention.
     
  6. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001


    So good those poor, suffering Republicans didn't want this. Why, they didn't want this so much that they voted for a rule that only allows Eric Cantor to put a clean Senate CR bill to the floor. By jove do they love democracy!

    I feel dirty even writing sarcastic praise for these schmucks.
     
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  7. beezel26

    beezel26 Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 11, 2003
    So Cruz stops the govt and then decides to disobey his own position and tear down the barriers at the WW2 memorial.
     
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  8. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Like I said a few pages back: if there weren't such dire consequences for the country, watching the GOP self-destruct would be funny.

    At this point, a limited default seems likely. Congress literally has no time left to enact anything; even if the Senate passes a bill, there's no guarantee the House will go for it. I'm guessing there will need to be a market panic before a solution is reached.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  9. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    And you are completely missing the point that no Congress has the authority to bind a future Congress to any agreement, short of a Constitutional Amendment.

    You have to deal with things the way they are today, and that includes the fact that the House is controlled by the Republicans, and because of that they have a seat at the table. It doesn't matter that the Democrats held that seat 4 years ago and used it to pass Obamacare. Now, it's time to fund it, and the current seat holder isn't bound by what the previous seat holder promised.

    That's why we have elections. It allows for a peaceful change of government. Whether you like it or not, the Republicans won control of the House, and with it the power of the purse. You can't just say "no negotiations" and "Congress already agreed to it" and use that to lock them out of their legitimate seat in the discussion.
     
  10. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    They have a seat at the table; they don't have a seat to eat off of everyone else's plates and to eat the damn table.
     
  11. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    That only looks at one side of the issue, Kimball.

    Congress may have the "power of the purse", but they need to use it. If they refuse to authorize borrowing to pay for bills incurred by a previous Congress, then they need to change that. They haven't yet. If anything, they've given the President two conflicting orders: a spending rule, and no authority to borrow to meet it. So they can either a) raise the debt limit or b) pass a new spending bill that does not violate the debt limit.

    And speaking of "refusing to negotiate", let's not forget how this whole mess started: House republicans refusing to do anything unless Obamacare was defunded. It's more than a little disingenuous of you to call out the dems now on not negotiating. The president's position-that he won't allow the debt ceiling to be used as hostage-is a sound one. If this is allowed to become the norm, our nation will be fundamentally altered, and not for the better. If Nancy Pelosi didn't use the debt limit to end the Iraq War, then the GOP shouldn't use it to exact budget concessions.

    At this juncture, I hope the Democrats take back the House, keep the Senate, and repeal the debt ceiling law in the next Congress. It, like the filibuster, has been badly abused.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  12. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    It also includes the fact that the Senate and the President - the other two bodies required to approve a law - are controlled by the Democrats. And that bringing the government to a shutdown and defaulting on the debt to get what they otherwise could not through legislative means is a slap in the face to democracy. If the GOP doesn't like Obamacare, then they have two options: either negotiate meaningful reforms or win elections.
     
  13. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/world/opinion.htm]Very[/url] interesting opinion piece from an online Chinese paper.

    Obviously, this is a Communist-party kissing piece of anti-American propaganda, but buried within is one very frightening point: the call to the IMF to replace the dollar with a new international reserve currency, ie one which China would have far more control over. For all the talk of fearmongering, if the enough nations got together and demanded change (not to mention dropped the dollar), this could very well happen. When the head of the IMF tells you to get your act together, you know you're in trouble.

    I think it would take a lot to get us to that point, but a default could certainly be a catalyst. Chinese would love to see an end to dollar-dominance, as would Russia. A coalition of the BRIC nations and perhaps OPEC as well demanding change could put a lot of pressure on the IMF to embrace a new reserve currency.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  14. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    It appears Reid and McConnell have reached a deal. Now we get to see if Boehner will allow a vote an up or down vote on it.
     
  15. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    In passing, the cutest part of that article is the stamping of feet that "no one has a right to wage any form of military action against others without a UN mandate." Um ... Tibet?
     
  16. VanishingReality

    VanishingReality Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2013
    They are hostages. Important government agencies being shut down have little to do with the Obamacare debate one way or another. Its scary to think that agencies that are employers, that are value-adding in every way, that are holding my local economy together...can fall apart every time there is a disagreement (however small) about an entirely unrelated bill. It's way too much power.
     
  17. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Ya the Republican Party is garbage.
     
  18. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    @Darkslayer, welcome to the Senate. Please read the rules before posting. Thanks!
     
  19. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Down to the wire....the Senate is likely to strike a deal, but Politico is reporting that House Republicans are already threatening that it doesn't compromise enough.

    Why? No real concessions (from their point-of-view) on Obamacare. Also, many in the House think that if they let a day or two go by from 10/17, the sense of panic will favor them to the extent that the Senate and WH will bend. Others (and this is even more scary), think that they have until 11/1, when Veterans benefits and Social Security payments are due.

    Unbelievable. 10/30 sees a $2 billion payment due for Medicare providers; 11/1 is $6 billion in interest payments on the debt. I sincerely hope it doesn't come down to that late a date--things will be very ugly if it drags out that far.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
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  20. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Reid/McConnell reached a deal in the Senate, but Boehner rejected it and offered his own (similar) compromise that he can't get the votes for. What a disaster his caucus is.
     
  21. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    The Senate deal isn't dead yet, but the House one is.

    The problem is, House Republicans are debating passing their bill and then leaving town, basically saying to the Senate "Take it or leave it."

    I don't think there's going to be a deal this week, at least not before thursday. I'm guessing a market panic starting tomorrow, then a deal over the weekend, assuming the House hasn't left town. If they have, then I think a capital flight out of the dollar will begin in earnest early next week. Even if they hurriedly figure something out, the damage will be done. At this point, I think investors are probably tired of the drama and will pull out of the US, not wanting to go through all this again in a few months.

    I'm no financial analyst, but to all my friends here: if you own any money market funds, make sure they are not leveraged to 30-day T-bills. They will default on thursday, which means you could lose your money. Put cash in checking accounts if you can. I will be doing that by tomorrow if the news isn't better.

    Hope they can still salvage something; it really looks like the Tea Party wants to default just to see what will happen.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  22. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Even if a default is somehow avoided, this fiasco has still damaged the economy (as it did in 2011). Just look at economic consumer confidence plummeting because of the shutdown.

    The bipartisan Senate deal has enough votes to pass the House by just about any count. There are now two people that can cause a default: Boehner, by not bringing it to the floor, and Cruz (or Lee) by objecting to moving the Senate bill forward by unanimous consent and delaying the vote until past Thursday.
     
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  23. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    It all comes down to Boehner, at least for now.

    Politico is reporting that he's trying to get something together conservatives can live with, but may be secretly hoping his bill fails, so that he can show that Republicans can't even pass their own bill. Then, he can pivot and allow the Senate bill to pass with Democratic votes.

    @ Shinjo: you're not kidding about economic damage. Investment banks the world over are dropping short-term US debt like flies. Deal or no, the US is likely going back into recession, and will stay there, until the next Euro crisis drives investors back to America.

    Case in point: I was going to buy a new car in December, but will likely now spend $1000 to repair my old one instead. Why? If we default, there won't be money to pay Medicare in a couple of weeks, and my paychecks might stop. In that case, I'm dipping into savings to pay my mortgage and other bills, not to mention basic living expenses.

    If someone like me (ie a doctor with no school loans, only home debt) is tightening up considerably, how about everybody else?

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  24. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    The working and middle classes have been tightening up for the last 5 years. They got hosed in 08 and still havent recovered.
    You're talking about monkey market accounts and other things like mutual funds and stocks being impacted by default....many working people still haven't recovered from the housing meltdown. They don't have time...or money for mutual funds, diversified portfolios and stuff like that. They just need a job.

    Am I concerned about my portfolio and MM account? Yes, yes I am.

    But I will wager the GOP blinks at the last minute and strikes a deal. They can't be that stupid.

    Again, they never should have tied OC to a shutdown. I agree with George Clooney(?!): If Obamacare is so terrible then let it be implemented and fail massively.

    But now it's all mucked up. If ACA fails the GOP cannot make a clear case of failure in good faith. Obama can go "well, that's because you mucked it all up and messed with the economy, etc and it impacted people's thoughts on it". The GOP really screwed themselves(and the country) this time. They're just wrong wrong wrong.

    They could've opposed the ACA but they needed to do so free and clear of any government shutdown. They couldve waited until a few months when all these things started to go into affect and then maybe went in and demanded changes with a stronger hand if things werent going so well for the ACA.

    But they went all kamikaze. Stupid.
     
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  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, kamikaze? Maybe that's the aim then.

    If they're going down, we're all going down with them!

    Yes, if your lot screw this up enough, it will affect me in the UK!