Reference The Game Designer's Group

***The Game Designer's Group: 2nd Edition***

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/Imperial_Hammer/Prosperitythroughendeavor.jpg]

Introduction

Welcome to the Game Designers Group, a group dedicated solely to the development of creative, and most importantly quality games to be used in the RPFs. Imperial Hammer will be serving as coordinator for this thread, an open-ended group of users united around the shared interest of creating high-quality first posts. First posts are an essential step in role playing. They are the first thing any player reads when considering joining a game, and they lay the foundation for everything that is to follow.

This is the second incarnation of The Game Designer's Guild. There is a great deal of history and insight to be found inside this thread. If you put the effort into looking through it, you may learn quite a bit.

What we are and what we are not

This Group is firstly not about characters. Discussions about characters take place in the Character Development Group.

This Group is also not about GMing (Game Mastering). Discussions about that take place in the Game Master's Group. While your decisions in launching a game most certainly will effect your GMing experience, we do not talk about that experience here. When the GDG discusses GMing in a game, it shall be in a predictive/theoretical nature only.

This group then discusses:

1.) What type of games should/can be launched (themes and genres)
2.) When to launch games (times in the year that work better than others)
3.) How to launch games (do you use advertisement or not?)
4.) Policies to add to your first post and their theoretical consequences (player caps, specific rules and system elements)
5.) Artistic and stylistic elements of the first post
6.) Interest tests about what type of games may be popular in the community at the moment
7.) Elements of game design, including world building, the structuring of main plotlines, factions (in-game integration, balancing, and dynamics), degrees of character freedom, etc.

Discussion

Discussion is what we do here. We offer advice, we review first posts, we speculate on when to run games and what type of games to run. We all have different ideas and experiences in writing first posts, and therefore we call can learn from each other. Everyone in this group should work towards the end goal that no game should fail on start-up. Every game deserves the chance to live.

So that this group is as open and welcoming as possible, discussion here will be entirely user-driven. If it falls under the umbrella of this group, anything can be talked about at any time. If there are two or more topics that want to be discussed at one time, the order of discussion will be first come, first served. Once there is a topic of discussion in the queue, the topic currently under discussion will have 5 days to wrap up. If this is not a sufficient amount of time, topics can be repeated as many times as required.

Review and Feedback

Another core function of this group is to review and offer feedback for games. Unlike the Game Designers Guild, this group will focus more on this element. The Game Designer's Group should be the primary place for people who want feedback on games to give them. As usual, this group offers no protection outside of social scorn against idea "claim-jumping". While this was not a problem in the last installation of this thread, do keep this point in mind. Review and feedback will be treated as a discussion, and subject to the same rules of discussion.

Additionally, the Mod Team will be taking care to ensure that criticisms are constructive. The GDG should be a place where those new and young can find informative and helpful feedback. Criticisms that are overly negative or harsh will be edited accordingl

 

Alright, new thread. Spiffy.

 

Awesome. I'll be posting here in the near future.

 

Damn, Ramza beat me to it.


ETA - HOTF, if your strategy game is ready to go, want to go first? Otherwise I'll put my Zone Control game on the table.

 

Nice looking new thread.

 

Hmmm that new thread smell.... (^_^)

Hey Impy I have a game in development that I could use some early feedback on. Do I PM it to you for the Queue, or what?

-JH-

 

Nope... just copy/paste it in.

Copy the current queue (which is empty), write your topic in, and its there.

-I_H

 

Alrighty then!

---

[b][color=green][u]The Queue[/u][/color][/b]
1. Zone Control: Tribal Warfare (DarthXan318)

[hr]

[blockquote]
[i]At the edge of the galaxy there is a planet.

At first, it was known only by its designation, M3425X-1, and it belonged to no one. Then one day, sick of the chaos of the galaxy and its endless wars, a group of human colonists arrived to turn it into their own. They gave it a name and set out to build a little paradise, the kind where its inhabitants lived in peace and harmony and wanted for nothing, and as they did so cut off all contact with the rest of the galaxy. The rest of the galaxy let them.

Years passed. Galactic governments rose and fell, the Jedi and Sith clashed time and time again, suns were born and suns died in explosions of light and energy. And even as all memory of Planet M3425X-1 faded into oblivion, until all it was was a notation in the exploration logs and a designation in the corner of the star charts, the colony grew into the prosperous, flourishing civilization the first settlers had dreamed of.

But then something happened. Some catastrophe struck the inhabitants of the planet, and their civilization ended. Millions died.

The rest of the galaxy took no notice. After all, they had no way of knowing. M3425X-1 had been isolated for longer than anyone could remember.

There, from the ashes of paradise, emerged a new, barbaric way of life. Instead of the ascendant civilization their ancestors had built over generations, there were only the Tribes. Instead of peace and harmony, there was war and chaos. Instead of peace and justice and laws to govern the land, the only rule was that of survival of the fittest.[/i]

[b]Welcome to Zone Control: Tribal Warfare.[/b]

This is a game, as I said, of war. Players will each control a Tribe vying for supremacy in the ruins of a world destroyed by some calamity. Alliances will be made and broken, battles will be fought, lives will be lost, until one Tribe emerges as the sole ruler of the land.

Take over Zones and use the resources there to strengthen your Tribe. Salvage and repair technology made by your ancestors. Trade and ally with your neighbours if you wish. But if the Zone you want is controlled by a rival Tribe, well, you'll just have to take it from them.

[hr]
[b][u]The World[/u][/b]

For simplicity the world is laid out in a hexagonal grid:

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/xany/zones.png]

Each hex tile represents a Zone, coloured according to type. There are several types of zones, each with inherent Defense ratings (see next section for description of combat):

[hl=purple][color=white][b]Tribal Homeland:[/b][/color][/hl]
- This is your starting zone, marked by a flag. Players nominate their preferred Homeland Zone type on their sheets.
- Once the game begins the Tribal Homeland can be moved as the Tribe wishes. It is also your seat of power, so guard it well. Losing your Homeland usually results in the death of your tribal leader and the assimilation of the rest into the victorious tribe - at best.
[i]Defense: Zone's defense +5[/i]

[color=darkblue][b]Farmland:[/b][/color]
- Here lie the remains of farms, animal pens etc. Nobody has worked the land for longer than anyone can remember, but enough remains forageable to feed 10 people.
- After controlling the zone for 5 consecutive rounds, the Tribe can figure out the techniques of agriculture and animal husbandry their ancestors used, thus increasing the number of people the land can support to 20.
[i]Defense: 1[/i]

[color=lightgreen][b]Wilderness:[/b][/color]
- The land here contains a mix- there is some food to be foraged and some wood to build structures. Can feed 4 people and produce 2 units of Wood per round, or 4 units if overharvested. However, overharvesting for 3 consecutive rounds turns it into Blasted Lands.
[i]Defense: 2[/i]

[color=darkgreen][b]Woodlands:[/b][/color]
- Pristine, untouched forest. Supplies wood for various uses - building structures, weaponry, burning fires, and so on. Can produce 5 units of wood per turn, or 10 if overharve

 

The Queue

The Exiled - RPG in Production - JediHighlander

 

Ooh, new thread!

 

Hmm... not sure how to streamline it much. The system thus far is actually pretty simple. Build civilization, population </= food supply, combat (from the player's end) is basic attack vs defense.... so that's all good. Each turn lasts a week, so that gives players a week to figure out increases in their wood, food, population, etc, so it's not like I have to figure it out today, combat happens, and tomorrow I am figuring a new number.

Perhaps removing wilderness tiles can help, but I don't know if it is necessary. If the player is keeping up with what is going on, then it shouldn't be too big of an issue to track the numbers, honestly. It's very simple. Each space gives you x amount of this, x amount of this, etc. It's only a matter keeping up with it, which is the player's problem, not necessarily yours. But if you want less figuring to have to be done, then I could see something like eliminating wilderness tiles.

Think that all helped... hmm....

Honestly, I really liked the addition of these. It gives the game a little more depth and allows for a bit more strategy, in my opinion. Some do seem a bit too powerful. I'll pull out a few examples and suggest something to perhaps fix them, or at least get you thinking.

- Foragers. The people of this Tribe enjoy figuring out new ways to live off the land. Every zone produces 2 extra Food, except for Blasted Lands.

This one isn't bad, but perhaps a bit unfair. An extra two food per tile? That's a pretty sweet bonus. As you'll see with all of these, I would recommend a drawback as well. For instance, since they are foragers, perhaps they are not able to, say, gather salvage as well, or their lifestyle makes it harder to harvest trees for lumber. Something like that.


- Warriors. The people of this Tribe like fighting. Each Fighter gets a bonus 1 to Attack.
- Berserkers. They're crazy in here. 2 bonus Attack per fighter when attacking.

Warriors could probably get by as is, but Berserkers are a bit cheap, especially in the beginning of the game. It gives them what seems to me a very very unfair advantage if a player has not yet had the chance to build up that much defense yet. Perhaps tack on a penalty to defense or something, so that a Berserker (in particular) may be able to sweep across their opponents, but they'd leave themselves weak to be attacked in the process. Or maybe even make it so that they cannot harvest food as well. Something like that.


Now for talents...

- Bloodthirsty. The Tribe must attack every round if possible. Survivors on the losing side will then join the Tribe out of fear.

I will question this. I think rephrasing may be better. Because, technically, if you have an ally bordering you, I would think it is still POSSIBLE to attack them, so does that mean you have to? Just a thought.

- Honourable. No attacking another Tribe unless attacked first. However, the people loves their Leader and will not leave even if he/she can't feed them.

This one I have a problem with. What that says there is you can have zero food and still grow, or at least plateau off at your current population. I like the bonus, but perhaps make it so that each point of food can support two people instead of one, or your population can exceed your food supply by up to ten or something.

Just a few ideas on that front. Hopefully it gets you thinking and gives you some ideas.

*_*_*_*_*_*

Random thoughts time....

Unless you have a player cap in mind, it may be a good idea

 

Last day for comments on Xan's game before the Exiled moves up in the queue. Remember Xan, you can put your game back up in the queue if you want to have another 5 days to talk about it.

-I_H

 

After JediHighlander I would love to have the stage for my debut-project. Thank you.

 

Well I guess I will just put it out there.

Its just an opening post with some faction background and rules but I would love some feedback on it.

---

[b]
The Exiled[/b]

It began with the Far Outsiders. The Yuuzhan Vong, aliens from outside the galaxy, invaded. The fledgling New Republic was ill prepared to resist the Invaders. The Jedi were confounded that they could not feel them in the Force, and as a result the Order was destroyed. Within two years the New Republic had fallen. A year after, the Hapes Consortium was over run. The Imperial Remnant had managed to hold the longest, even with the influx of refugees, but it could not last.
The only course of action was to escape. The Empire started building a fleet the ?Fleet of Hope? with a massive command ship that would take a chosen few to safety. The command ship ?Last Hope? took on aspects of the Outbound Flight; a central fuselage with six Super-class Star Destroyers around it. With the ability to carry six million beings. The other ships were cobbled together as quickly as possible, most consisting of Hapan ships that had escaped to Imperial space, but some with Imperial and Victory class Star Destroyers, arranged around massive fuselages. These ships have been dubbed MultiVessel-Class ships. The Fleet was the galaxy's last chance to survive. The Empire chose scientist, engineers, doctors, all manor of professions it thought would be needed to start over. Also included were the handful of Jedi that had escaped the destruction of their Order. While the Empire's animosity for the Jedi was well known, it was hoped that, with their help, they could breach the hyperspace barrier on the edge of the galaxy.
As the Yuuzhan Vong broke through the last of the Empire's defenses the Fleet was preparing to launch. The Yuuzhan Vong dogged them all the way to the edge of the Galaxy, but they did not expect the Fleet to breach the barrier and they were unable to follow. The Last Hope engaged its ExGal NavComputer, that was meant to guide them to a new galaxy, and the Fleet, slaved to the command ship, jumped into hyperspace. Its a trip that would last for seven hundred years.
That was nearly six hundred years ago.
Generations of beings have lived and died as the Fleet cruises through the void, and they began to call themselves the Exiled. As the Fleet has aged it has become harder and harder to keep it functioning. Many ships have sections too dangerous to even enter. Everything is in short supply and tempers are on edge. Hope is dwindling.
Because they were the ones to breach the Barrier and root out Yuuzhan Vong spies, the Jedi have become respected by everyone and their presence is all that keeps the tension between the Imperial and Republic factions to a slow simmer instead of an all out war.
But the Jedi are worried. Somewhere close by, unknown to any save the Jedi, a darkness is gathering. For years people have been disappearing, not so many as to raise an alarm to all, but enough for the Jedi to notice and yet no sign has ever been found.
Reports of a riot in the ?Blue Bantha? (a dreadnaught Multivessel) reached the Jedi and they dispatched two Knights in response. After hours of chaos order was finally restored, but the riot was not the most troubling event. Several key systems had been sabotaged in other ships while the Jedi were distracted. It is obvious that the darkness was on the move, but to what ends.

[hr]

Welcome to The Lost Fleet. This is a Star Wars AU that explores what could have happened if the Yuuzhan Vong War had gone badly for the Galaxy. You will find yourself in the midst of the Fleet of Hope trying to uncover a plot to destroy the Fleet before it can reach its destination, a new galaxy to start over in. It is my intention for this to be a directed Sandbox game (a sandbox game with a plot).

1.PM all character sheets to me for approval. Do Not post your sheet in the thread without approval from me, because your character WILL be ignored until you send me a sheet for approval. If you can't PM because you have less the twenty posts then visit

 

IGNORE ME!

 

So, "The Exiled".

First impression is that it's an attempt to tell a Battlestar Galactica story within the Star Wars universe. Interesting idea, and it's not the first time we've had another universe shoehorned into the GFFA, and this is one of the better-disguised efforts at it.

Having said that, the main thing that sticks out for me is the setting and where you can really take it. If indeed the Fleet is basically headed between galaxies, almost by definition that means there won't be a single planet that's familiar to the characters, and most likely very few reference points for people to orient themselves in this universe. No Tatooine, no Coruscant, no Corellia, no Ryloth, no Endor, nothing. Zip. And your setting by definition isn't going to get to its destination, since as I understand it you're setting this RPG about 100 years prior to their arrival in the far galaxy.

More importantly, the setting almost by definition confines people to one ship for most of their voyage, for the following reasons. The distance between galaxies is massive. I mean, obscenely huge. The Milky Way (our own galaxy) is estimated at about 100,000 light years across -- a photon off to see the universe would take more than the entirety of human history just to cross the diameter of our galaxy, at that's at the speed of light. And the gaps between galaxies are significantly bigger -- millions of lightyears.

I point that out because there is only one established GFFA way of getting across those gaps: hyperspace. The SW universe has never had much truck with wormholes generally, and black holes have only ever been given a half-glance in the case of the Maw. And we know how hyperspace generally operates: ships travel through it without stopping -- unless, as implied in Outbound Flight, they make the occasional stopoff for supplies. But here's the rub: the space between galaxies is generally thought to be a void. Not many stars, fewer planets, fewer still of any use to a passing starship. BSG gets around this problem by confining the Galactica's journey within the galaxy, not outside it.

Shuttles don't move between ships in hyperspace, and the fleet for the majority of the time will be in hyperspace. If it's not in hyperspace, then almost by definiton it's in the middle of nowhere or it's on an uninteresting mudball of a planet to be harvested for consumables for the fleet. Not terribly exciting for people who want to get out and stretch their legs and look at, y'know, some familiar scenery.

Thus your characters will basically be spending most, if not the overwhelming majority, of their time on a ship. It sounds cooler than it is unless you're extremely good at keeping it fresh and interesting.

Next issue is the "circa 600 ABY setting", which I honestly think is a pretty big hurdle to get over for most RPGs. 1XX ABY games get around it because they've got an anchor to work from: the Legacy of the Force comics, something that tells your players what the galaxy looks like and feels like 100 years after Luke and the gang have passed on. And even then there's a lot of familiar crap happening to keep it tied to the current SW universe: lightsabers are around, Sith exist but are recognisable, Mara and Luke make appearances, hell, K'Krukh himself is still trundling around. Point being: unless you're very, very good at creating settings out of wholecloth, the year 600 ABY is going to be pretty close to impossible for people to imagine with any consistency.

I'm not saying players here don't like to get creative, but you're basically asking them to create characters where they really have no conceptual foundations upon which to build. It's not simply a matter of specifying how messed up the various factions are the wake of Teh End Of Teh World As We Know It, it's a matter of everything else: culture, traditions, sayings, how people relate to each other, foods, drinks, clothes, money, economics. And it's a problem, IMHO, for all prospective "*** ABY" games leaving aside S

 

Saint beat me to most of my points, though I still have a few things to add about "The Exiled".

It's not a bad concept for a game. The underlying plot has potential, even if it is not entirely and spectacularly original, it has the potential to be taken to some good places. However, I feel that making it a "sandbox", whether directed or not, may not be the best way to go. Sandboxes, in my experience, tend to be larger, uncontrolled games, and I feel that you won't want that for this one.

Part of the reason is that, as Saint mentioned, travel between planets and other ships would logically be limited, unless you invented an entirely different system of travel, which would make it decidedly un-Star Wars. This can be solved, actually, by limiting all players to one ship. The ship's appear to be massive, and almost will be a world all their own, so that is certainly one option that I may actually recommend regardless of game size.

Another reason I would advise against making this a "sandbox" is that it is just plain hard, especially if you have a lot of people spread out over many ships. They have the nigh-unlimited freedom of a sandbox without the ability to actually go anywhere new and meet new player characters to interact with. This may be fun at first, but once the game gets into it a bit, I can see it getting tedious and tiring.

The last reason I would point out is that you appear to have little experience GMing around here. This is not to say that I doubt you can do it or that you do not possess the skills capable. I don't know your history outside of these boards, and you very well may have plenty of experience. However, sandboxes can be hard to run, especially in this setting. You seem to have an overall plot you'd like to introduce, which may prove quite difficult to do when you have a bunch of different players, going whichever way the wind takes them, and they all are on separate ships and practically completely unable to meet and contact each other. Heck, they probably won't even know each other exist. This can easily wear you out if you aren't careful, and I just want to point this out so you know. You can make this work, definitely. However, in my opinion, you're making it harder than it has to be.

What I would recommend is first deciding how large a game you want to run. I know several people here are against installing player caps in games, but I am all for them if you know you can only handle a game that is x amount of people large. This game actually might work better as a smaller game anyways, as they could be a team of Jedi unraveling this mystery or some such. Just an idea to consider.

Saint does have a point in that there is little in the way of familiar environments for players to live in. This is not necessarily a problem, per se, it just means you are going to have to work that much harder to create it, or at least keep the player's own creation in check. This is doable, as I have done it myself on occasion, but keep that in mind. However, this game concept could easily work in a different setting in a more normal Star Wars environment. Or, if nothing else, as I briefly mentioned earlier before, just confine all characters to one ship. To me, ships would become similar to clans or families after six hundred years. I imagine that the fleet identity would not be nearly as great as a ship identity, if that makes sense, and that people of all walks of life would try and help to save their ship if it was needed.

Lastly, I feel I should point out there are several typos in the post, particularly in the beginning. Yes, I realize that may be a bit of a jerk-y thing for me to do, but I love English and they nag at me as I read through them, even if I understand it is just a rough draft.

Sorry.

Annnnyways......

Like I said, not a bad concept for the game, but needs some polishing and some additional thought. I'm not at all familiar with BSG, never got into it personally, so any correlation I can't really comment on like Saint did. But, anyways, hope that helped some, if nothing else to get ya t

 

I agree with the ones who have gone before according to the Sandbox-Problem and the need for heightened awareness of the limitations of the surrounding. I think the Battlestar Galactica feel might even not be such a problem, because the new threat could be more of a mystery than the Cylons (and we won´t steal us out of any mystery by shouting GOD in the end, as it is star wars ) but I feel you might need a MASSIVE number of players for this one and somehow doubt there is enough to do for them, except you want to go some civil war storyline. Which I doubt considering you introduced already another threat.

To the novelty of settings and designs I always believed that it is done to much and not to less in our boards, actually. Though I must confess, not many agree with me. The ABYverse indeed uses the comics as an anchor and everything else develops in a creative team of constant exchange. Several teams actually who then have to coordinate their conflicting inventions, but that´s another story. So, it can be done, but one alone is a lot of pressure, I assume.

Also there are a few questions whose answer could actually greatly influence our ideas of the game.

1. How long shall it last? Is it an eternal game, or limited run. Three act or chapter after chapter after chapter?

2. How many Characters?


I also must insist that 133 ABY is my game and there is a second one by LordTroepfchen from the same year. Sinrebirth, as brilliant and beloved by us all as he is, is pretty much in the twenties of that age He did not GM 133ABY. He played in it.

 

Oh yeah, sorry for double post but edit time was up.

Draco and I withdraw our request to have the stage. We´ll cold start Bad Day in L.A. shortly . . . as time is of essence here. Thanks

 

Arrgh, so it is. Many, many apologies.
Now you see the real reason I had to stand down from modship: Alzheimers'.

 

No prob, even Mods grow old. Just wanted to avoid confusion, in our number games before the ABY there . . .

 

The Queue

The Exiled - RPG in Production - JediHighlander
V - Interest gauge/discussion/development - Saintheart

Just puttin' it in there. "V", as in, the TV series which basically gave Gen X nightmares as kids, and which hopefully will do the same to Gen Y in its current form (the new series hasn't premiered out here in Australia as yet.)

 

Go ahead and bring up the next topic in the queue, The Exiled has been scrapped. I do thank everyone for their input.

-Anvil-

 

Saw V yesterday. It is pretty awesome, for a pilot. Got a real ID4 vibe but with characterization like Lost does it. So do you plan to . . .? I stop asking, just put it up.

 

Don't really have a startup yet, Fins; the basic idea I had was a V RPG set in the time of the old TV series, just shifted forward 20 years, mostly because it's the one I'm familiar with and it's one I can probably design a game around.

I think the basic premise would be the same, that is, big saucer-shaped vessels show up all across the planet, but the aliens have a (DUN DUN DUUUUNNN) Hidden Agenda which would be, as in the old TV series, to remove Earth's water and (eventually) its populace for food.

I think the universe is wide enough for a sandbox (it's literally the entire planet, though I'd have to keep myself jumping if I started it up or restrict its focus to the LA area as the original series was), but there are still some crucial questions:

PCs: Human only? Visitors? I'm inclined towards the first option because it keeps maximum coverage of the curtain, but I'm open to persuasion.
When to set it: When the ships first show? When martial law is declared? During the formation of the Resistance, or well into it? Not certain. The earlier it starts, the more characterisation I suppose, but also the more atmosphere of "Move it on already! We know they're here to take the water!"
Do I allow myself to have collaborators amongst all this?
Do I include any of the "canon" characters (or has it been so long that people don't really remember and I could just slip 'em in without anyone noticing?)
Is this a "present day" RPG that could actually work?

Lines are open and operators are standing by ...

(Oh, greyjedi's going to spank me so badly when he sees me contemplating this. He's been waiting on my Matrix 2.0 RPG for a good five years now ... )