Saga The Immaculate Conception -- Terrific or Terrible

I'm indifferent. Since Lucas chose to make Shmi the single mother of the GFFA, for Anakin to have had a father would have been just another loose end. So unless he'd chosen to give Anakin 2 parents, but have them both killed off at some point in the prequel trilogy, my guess is that he did it because he didn't want to have to come up with a father backstory, as much as anything else. I don't mind the idea of Anakin being conceived by the Force itself. What I don't get is the prophecy aspect of it. Balance should mean that light and dark are on equal footing, not that one destroys the other.....anyway, I think it added a little bit to the whole Jedi-as-a-religion thing, because religions all have their superstitions, their prophecies, and their Chosen Ones. But I tend to think that not giving Anakin a father was mostly a cop-out, like Padme dying of a broken heart was.

 

The Force is back on even footing at the end of ROTJ and into TFA. Palpatine has caused too much of the dark side to grow and envelop the Force as a whole. Once he's gone, things are back to normal. Lor San Tekka states that so long as the Jedi exist, then there can be balance. Without them, the balance is lost.

 

But how would this work?

There must have been a time in the galaxy's past where there were NO Force users at all.
Either because there were no advanced species that could make conscious use of the Force.
Or that such species did exist but they haven't discovered how to yet.
So before the time where Jedi's and Sith existed, was the Force unbalanced because there were no Jedi?

Also, this does not fit at all with the PT, which said that the Sith had to die for balance to be restored.
The argument for several years has been that the Sith, by their selfish and corruptive use of the Force, cause an imbalance and disrupt the balance. The Jedi do not.
So why would the lack of Jedi unbalance the Force?
If there were NO Force users, why would that cause the Force to be unbalanced?

@Qui-Riv-Brid

Except this is not what the films say.
The films say that all Sith must die. So IF Anakin, as Vader, tried to kill Palpatine for evil and selfish reasons, managed to do it but was mortally wounded and died soon after, this WILL balance the Force.
Both Sith are now dead and since balance is defined as "Absence of Sith." the Force is balanced and Anakin was the one to do it. He didn't intend to and he caused it to happen for entirely evil and self serving reasons but he still did it.

Some fans argue that it was really Palpatine that had to die and not just Sith in general.
But the same applies here. Had Anakin killed Palpatine, for whatever reason, the Force would have been balanced as soon as Palpatine was dead.

So, if balance= death to all Sith or death to Palpatine, as long as Anakin caused that to happen, even for evil reasons or just plain by accident, that would balance the Force. Heck, if Vader caused an accident that blew up the ship that he and Palpatine were on, that would balance the Force.

So Anakin's function in life is just to kill a man, Palpatine. And possibly he needs to die as well.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

You're missing the point. In TFA, there are the Knights of the Ren which Ben Solo is a member of as Kylo Ren. Snoke is their leader. Snoke has the new Jedi eliminated because they stand in the First Order's way of ruling the galaxy. The Jedi Order's priority in situations like this is to prevent that from happening. Just as it was their purpose to prevent the Sith from taking over. At one point in the last war with the Sith, the Sith had managed to take control over much of the galaxy. But there were still plenty of Jedi left to fight them. The Jedi got the Sith to turn on each other and with their own mop up job, had pretty much eliminated the Sith. Save for Darth Bane. Years later, Order 66 and the subsequent Purge had eliminated almost all of the Jedi. Yoda trains Luke and he is able to get Anakin to destroy the Sith. Yoda also states that Luke must pass on his knowledge so that the Jedi Order could live again. That was what he was doing when the Ren came along. Now, Luke must train Rey so that the Jedi Order can continue and that the Ren and their leader are dealt with.

 

Errm.....yeah. Here you make the same point I was making, and a different point to the one you appeared to be making before. I was pointing out that it would be everybody's best destiny (surely) to help others, which you acknowledge here. Previously you were arguing that if everybody's best destiny was to help others then there would be no problems
"No, because if it was everyone's best destiny, the world wouldn't be in such sorry shape."
which is saying the opposite of what you are saying here.You emphasised this by stating that "But they do and that is because not everyone's best destiny is to help people."

I'd also like to point out, as an aside, that you appear to be concentrating on the notion of the 'feckless and dissolute poor' as the defining driver of that, whereas in Star Wars it appears that the greatest problems are caused by those who are driven to "succeed" to move above their "station". Not really relevant to the discussion, but it just struck me as an odd statement...

You see how in that last paragraph you miss a vital piece of information. Because Lucas says this is all about the relationship between Luke and Anakin,as son and father, then it isn't about being a bystander - in fact here the notion is that if it were not Anakin's son then he would be happy to look on and do nothing. How is that selflessness?

If the prophecy is true,and it was misread and Anakin was "supposed to.." become a Sith Lord...how is that the same as saying it doesn't mean it was his "destiny" to do so? This is utter garble. If the prophecy is true then what is actually in that prophecy is what is "meant to" happen. If the Jedi were wrong and it was actually that he was"supposed to.." (the same as "meant to.." in anybody's English) become a Sith then he was "destined" to become a Sith as an aspect of his "greater destiny"

It makes absolutely zero sense to argue that ...as part of his "greater destiny", as arraigned in the prophecy, he is to become a Sith and then argue that that doesn't mean it was his destiny to become a Sith....

And herein lies the problem of the exceptionalism introduced into the PT....

"The Chosen One", the prophecy...all lead to this notion of exceptionalism which is not required in the OT. When Luke makes his choice not to accept the darkside, but to deny evil, he tells us himself what this means; "I am a Jedi."
To be a Jedi, to do Jedi is just that. It isn't about lightsabres and levitation, mind tricks and super leaps..it is about seeing the evil within yourself and rejecting it. It isn't about cutting down some broken Sith, it is about seeing that Sith in yourself. It doesn't need exceptionalism.


It also makes little sense to argue that one finds balance in oneself by embracing evil How does this put him "above Luke"?.....am I to understand that had Hitler, just before he squeezed the trigger that last time, had a revelation of how wrong he had been,that he would- in fact - have been a more balanced soul than ...Mahatma Ghandi (for example)...because he had embraced evil and thus found "true balance" or some such nonsense?

A last point..this flies in the face of your previous claim that "That doesn't mean that it was his destiny to become a Sith Lord..." because you are arguing here that only by doing so could he find this "balance within himself"

Dancing among many arguments you are.

You mean the title? As in, it isn't just that Luke represents the return of the Jedi but that Anakin's redemption is equally a return to the light? Absolutely, I have said as much in other threads. But that isn't the same as the movie being about him. The movie was originally about Luke's journey primarily and Anakin's redemption was tangential to, derived from, that story.

Exactly...we are back to this. The only way to make this story about Anakin is to introduce an element of exceptionalism. Anakin has to be exceptional, in a truly pre-ordained way. Whereas the original story was about a moment we can all conjure, though it is not easy.

So...yes, it would seem that, for this story to be about Anakin then his becoming a Sith must have been something that he was "supposed to" do....which is the same as saying it was a part of his "greater destiny" as the "Chosen One". That, actually, he was meant to, by the will of the Force, destroy the Jedi, bring the Force into darkenss, plunge the galaxy under the oppression of the Sith and the Empire....

What does this do to the Force? It makes it appear to be a bit of a dick, frankly, if that was it's plan all along (and it is an active, conscious agent) and/or remarkably impotent. Why would anybody have faith in that kind of Force?

So...if nobody knows what the prophecy says (because it only might have been unread)then....how can it be because people weren't paying attention? Paying attention to what? A prophecy that nobody knows what it says? It seems to me there is nothing to pay attention to which would give you that answer...except Lucas having to answer the question.

 

Terrible. "The chosen one" is such a over done thing these days...

 

Those are people who become morally bankrupt, placing ambition over the needs of others. That's why those who fight back can do so because they are driven to help others without thinking of themselves.

Because he is still thinking about Luke's well being instead of his own. If another Jedi was there and tried to reach him in the same manner as Luke did and did the same things that Luke did, it might affect his judgment. Vader does meet with his former Padawan in the years prior to ANH.



She obviously fails to reach him, or she might not have even tried. Luke is able to reach him because he shows compassion and forgiveness for his crimes, which is what Anakin truly wants. So Luke's act of compassion and mercy is what sparks his desire to turn away from the dark side. Because Obi-wan refused to show him mercy and because he believed that he was being betrayed, Vader is unable to see past his own anger and selfishness. Luke being Vader's son is more of a bonus.

What it means is that the prophecy most likely never stated that Anakin had to be a Jedi or a Sith. They just misunderstood it to mean that he had to be trained as a Jedi and could only do it as a member of the Jedi Order. The prophecy might have said that Anakin becomes a Sith Lord, not that he was destined to do so, but that he chooses to do so. Or at the very least that he was a Sith Lord at the time he fulfills his destiny.

Except Luke was always exceptional. That was the point in there being only two children, both the son of a Jedi, who trained to be Jedi and intended to be the saviors. Exceptionalism is there when Lucas came up with the savior idea in 1975 and is there when Luke is the only one who can destroy the Death Star, not Han Solo or Wedge Antilles.

Anakin's situation is that he has not found the balance within himself. He does not know himself and he does not know the truth of what he is. Not that he is the Chosen One, but what kind of person he really is. By going to the dark side and seeing what there is and what it offers and what it denies, is he able to finally understand when the time comes of what he has done and what he has lost. Hitler was not a conflicted soul when he chose to be who he became. Just as Palpatine knew who he was when he became Emperor.

Anakin doesn't know what he is. Is he a Jedi, is he a Sith? Is he a saint, or a sinner? Is he a man or a monster? He doesn't know what he is. He is an emotional and intellectually confused individual who is driven by guilt. Guilt for leaving his mother. For failing to save her. For failing to protect those that he cared for. For doing terrible things. He tries to walk the path of the righteous, but he is tempted by the darkness and he doesn't know how to move past it. Seeing Luke's example is to him what Luke was seeing in the tree cave and then after the duel has ended.

It isn't flying in the face. Sometimes, we have to see the darkness within ourselves in order to understand it and ourselves. Anakin could have seen, but he chose not to look. He chose to define himself as the dragon. The monster. That it was Darth Vader who was responsible and not Anakin Skywalker. Then he tries to say that Anakin Skywalker is gone and that he is only Darth Vader. By going through the darkness, could he finally choose to look and see what is inside of himself. And once he saw himself, could he let go of everything and be who he was meant to be.

Again, like I said, the prophecy never said what Anakin was supposed to be. That doesn't mean that he was destined to destroy the Jedi. It was the result of his choices. The Jedi just assumed that he had to be a Jedi Knight at the time. That doesn't mean he had to be evil, just that they don't know everything.

ROTS states that Anakin was to destroy the Sith. In ROTJ, he does so. If someone doesn't pay attention to what Obi-wan says and connect it to what Anakin does, then that is on them. The prophecy was explained in ROTS and we see it in ROTJ.

 

As I say, a bit of a side issue - just odd that your examples were of the feckless poor, rather than of those grasping for power over others.

You say it is a "bonus", but Lucas says it is "all about" their relationship. Now, personally, I don't think it is, but Lucas says it is so. So I am questioning how it can be that in one trilogy attachment is what brings about his downfall, and in the next it is what brings about his redemption. In other words...I'm questioning whether it is about the relationship between father and son as pertaining to attachment, to the relationship itself or whether we need to take on board what else Lucas says about what that relationship means in context. Because what he says is that we learn from our children. So, far from being because it is his son, it is simply that the son teaches.

In other words, the reason Vader acts is not because it is his son, but because of what his son has taught him.That it is not the familial relationship that is important, but that the familial relationship is symbolic of the idea that we learn from our children. It is not a driver of the narrative, but is an underlying theme within it.

And, Luke doesn't make his choice not to cut Vader down through compassion for Vader. This is about Luke, not Vader. His epiphany is that the real enemy is not 'out there', but in himself. He understands that to kill Vader will not change anything, that it will only sate his own anger and hatred. That he will become as Vader is. As you later point out, this is the lesson of the cave on Dagobah.

Is the prophecy true or not? Is the prophecy a thing that is meant to be or not? You hop between it being one thing and then the other. Is it ordained by the Force, or simply a foreseen future? If it is simply a foreseen future then.....faith in it as faith in the Force is nonsensical. If it is ordained of the Force and meant to be then....in what way can it make sense that his being a Sith is not ordained? If the prophecy is true and is 'of the Force' and that prophecy says he is a Sith then it is "meant to be", it is an aspect of that truthful prophecy as ordained by the Force. Only in those circumstances (that the prophecy is of the Force) can faith in the prophecy be equivalent to being faith in the Force. If it is not, then Anakin destroying the Sith is not ordained by the Force but is simply a foreseen future...which means that faith in the prophecy is not equivalent to faith in the Force.

As I say..you have to dance between positions because it makes no sense.

I really don't care about what was in drafts. They are different stories from what was made. Luke is exceptional, you are right, but for the choices he makes; for his idealism; for his sense of doing the right thing. Not because he was ordained by some sky-king to get a job done. And...as for him being the only one who can destroy the Death Star..you seem to conflate does and can quite a bit. Had Wedge Antilles not failed (using his electronic guidance) would Luke have been as confident in his abilities above the electronic guidance? Perhaps but perhaps not (indeed it is telling, I think, that the electronic guidance system is shown to have failed prior to Luke's choice to use the Force). Had Han not come back and removed the threat of Vader would Luke have got he opportunity? They both play a part in the destruction of the Death Star. He could not do it on his own (this is another huge distinction between this and Anakin's accidental (some might say ridiculously so) destruction of the TF ship in TPM).

So....Anakin didn't know that evil was bad?...Is that what you are saying?

You really don't get what I mean by flying in the face of? You are contradicting your own arguments. Are you really not aware of that? You do it again in this post. You argue, on the one hand, that Anakin could have fulfilled his destiny without becoming a Sith, and then, on the other hand, argue that only by becoming a Sith does he fulfill the propchecy.

See..here we are again. Having argued that Anakin can only fulfill the role of "chosen one" by turning to the darkside, you now revert to arguing that Anakin could have fulfilled that role without doing so (that it was not necessarily "meant to" be). How is it that he can be the "Chosen One" without turning to the darkside if it is his turning to the darkside that makes him exceptional, defines his status as "Chosen One"?

ROTS states that the prophecy may have been misread. So, we are left with Obi-Wan's words, about what he believed the prophecy meant...which clearly was misread. How can not knowing what a prophecy says in anyway give clarity to what the prophecy says? What, exactly, is there to pay attention to, other than the idea that nobody seems to know what the prophecy says or means? How can the audience be at fault for not understanding a prophecy nobody understands?

 

@only one kenobi

From this thread and several others about it, based on those that defend the prophecy, it says basically this:

Someone will maybe balance the Force, perhaps. This someone might be Anakin Skywalker, but maybe not.
He will do this, perhaps, by killing Palpatine, possibly. He might also, maybe, turn to the Dark side and possibly become a Sith, but perhaps not. This may or may not be necessary or possibly both or neither. All this could have been ordained by the Force or maybe foreseen but then again it might not be.
I think...maybe.....sort of....at a guess.......or it could be anything really.

What I think is clear is how ill defined, under developed and hastily thought out this whole prophecy thing really is.
Had the films done something interesting with it then it might have worked. As is, it is just a thing that is tacked on to the story to make it seem more Epic.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

When I said that Luke being his son is a bonus, what I meant is that his familiar relationship was a bonus in that Vader doesn't want to kill Luke right off the bat as he would any other Jedi. He wants him alive because they are related, not because he has parental feelings for him, but because of what he represents. His being of the same genetic stock as him and thus he can be exploited for his own ends. It just so happens that because they were family and he had caused his wife's death, Vader starts to struggle with his selfish desires and his growing compassionate side.

As to Luke, I'm not denying that Luke's own personal journey is ignored. But he still chooses not to kill Vader because he hates him. He chooses to spare his foe, an act of compassion. It's the same way that Anakin refused to spare Dooku because he had anger and hates towards him. Luke's epiphany is what causes him to snap out of it, but he still makes a choice to spare his father. To not kill a helpless man. He couldn't extend that to Dooku and Obi-wan refused to do so towards him.

Having loved ones isn't a problem, unless one doesn't learn to let go of their attachment to them. Anakin saving Luke isn't just because of an attachment, but a result of letting go of his fears.

I have said that it is a foreseen thing, many times. But having faith in the Force is not nonsensical. The whole point is to have faith in something greater than themselves and that which is greater is the Force, which is nature. Which is something beyond their known comprehension. Faith in the Force is like faith in God, but that doesn't specifically mean that it was ordained by God. That God controls every detail. Rather, that a vision of the future from the Force is like divine revelation. A message of what could inevitably happen. The prophecy is true as Anakin brings the Force into balance. What is unknown is how it will happen. The Jedi can only interpret what it means.

His choices are only part of it, not the sum total. His ability to use the Force was just as essential.

The targeting computer was never going to get the job done, because it was too difficult a shot. It needed the Force to push it in precisely. Luke is the only who can do it, because he is the only one who can use the Force to do it. That's why it drafts two through four, it comes down to Luke to make the shot. Each time it is because he can use the Force. I'm in no way downplaying Han's role, nor Wedge's or anyone else. But in terms of being the one to destroy it, it still requires someone with a power to do so. As to Anakin, the whole sequence was designed with a different mindset. Instead of aiming for an impossible shot from the outside, it is a shot made on the inside where it is easier to make a such a shot. But what they have in common is trusting their instincts, which for Luke is to shut off the computer and make a shot. For Anakin it is to do more than just fire blasters, but to use torpedoes. Yes, it seems accidental because it wasn't structured with a tense moment the same way Luke's was. As to Anakin, well, he wasn't entirely alone. He had Artoo with him.

Anakin was confused as to what was right and what was wrong. Palpatine had blurred the lines for him. Telling him that what was considered wrong, was actually right like with killing Dooku. He knew that he was wrong for killing the Tuskens, but it also felt good to inflict pain on them for hurting him and his mother. He knew it was wrong to kill all those people on Palpatine's orders, but he also felt it was right because it meant that he would become stronger and more powerful, and thus he could protect his loved ones.

I didn't say that he could only do it by turning to the dark side. I said that the Jedi didn't know what it was the Chosen One was supposed to be. Not that he had to be a Sith, but that the Jedi don't know what his status was when he would do it. It just happens that because he chose to turn and then chose to turn back, he winds up being exceptional.

I reiterate what I said; Obi-wan states what it is in ROTS and we see it in action in ROTJ. It is that simple. Anyone who didn't pay attention to that line of dialogue is at fault. Not Lucas. It may have been misread and then we see that it wasn't entirely wrong. Anakin still destroys the Sith. How hard is that to understand?