The Imperial Knights thread *SPOILERS*

Excellent point. I was wrong. Jedi would let dups get killed in their place.

For shame.

Carnage

 

It's a matter of the fact that the Jedi didn't LET them get killed in their place. They are however perfectly willing to let people risk their lives for the greater good. Krunchy of the Sweet Hat hated that troopers risked their lives and died for him while he was a Jedi General but he had to do it.

I doubt that the Actor wasn't informed there would be some danger involved in it.

 

The difference between Household Knights and normal subjects of an imperial house is that the Household Knights swear loyalty to the sovereign. The throne is a symbol of power, it is not the font of power. The sovereign is the ultimate source of all legitimacy and authority, and Roan Fel is the true sovereign. There are conditions in which a sovereign can be legitimately deposed (see the French Revolution) but a military coup is not one of them as far as the knights are concerned.

Of course, legitimacy will vary from one's point of view and legalistic training. There are certainly differing schools of thought--but none of them would demand that Household Knights abandon their sovereign.

You are debating using examples from the European past and using the ideals, not the reality behind. In reality, it is true that in the Middle Ages the oaths were considered more holy than we would now, but they were broken as often as now. Also what you write of the position of the sovereign is what the lawyers of the rulers claimed in the late Middle Ages and beyond; not something that would have been widely accepted, especially among the higher echelons of the society.

And if you want to use Earthly examples - which do not necessarily have any impact to the IKs, as the history behind them and their position in in-universe might be totally different even if the authors would have based them on Earthly institutions - the IKs form an Order. They are not solitary knights who happen to serve the same master. And this master happens to be a member of their Order. This reminds more of some military Orders from the Crusades like the Hospitallers than household knights of some prince.

One could also ask did the IKs continue to serve Roan Fel not (only) because they consider him the legitimate Emperor, but because he is one of them and in reality their true leader? Were they in the first place only connected to the Imperial government through him? Because I see it that way that the person of the Fel Emperor is the only thing that really connects them to the New Galactic Empire and otherwise they seem to be a parallel organization to the Imperial government itself and largely operate outside it, taking orders from the Fel Emperor himself. Could a Moff give orders to the IKs? I personally guess that the IKs would obey only if the Emperor would have told them to do so.

 

I've always viewed the Imperial Remnant and its ideals as very Roman. Ironically, I think the views embraced by Pellaeon upon his ascension to Grand Admiral are closer to the original Old (Ancient Pre-Ruusan) Republic ideals than the Galactic Alliance that continues to kriff itself over with unimaginably strong member states while the original Republic with Empress Teta as an example were individuals that made a clear effort in order to assimilate member states into the ranks of the existing governing body. One became Roman/Imperial when one joined, one did not remain a separate member state in culture.

The Royal Guard, which is what the Imperial Knights are despite their pretensions to being a separate order from the Jedi, are the Praetorian Guard of the Emperor and like the original Praetorian guard have since taken to political meddling. The original Royal Guards who meddled are of course Canor Jax and Kir Kanos with the former putting an end to the Madness of Emperor Palpatine in the same manner as Caligula was disposed of. The servant Kir Kanos and his loyalty to his master only results in a brutal vengeance quest that is never rectified. There is sadly no Claudius or cousin of Emperor Palpatine for Kanos to offer the throne to.

While it remains unlikely Kir Kanos had anything to do with the revival of the Imperial Royal Guard, the current elite body of said beings nevertheless exerts an exceptionally strong influence on the current Imperial personage. Antares Draco's defiance of the Emperor is a punishable offense yet the Emperor is unwilling to cross that line. Marasiah Fel is furthermore entrusted to tutelage under the care of a simultaneous educated woman as well as Royal Warrior. The close ranks between the Royal Guard and the Imperial Household perhaps should make the Moffs wary of charges of secret police or controlling the Household through a closed palace.

The coup orchestrated by Morlish Veed and conquering hero General Darth Krayt (accepted by the ranks of the people for his military victories combined with the fact that he was ratified by the Moff Senate) failed only in that they did not eliminate Caesar suitably. Krayt would have done better to unify the land by giving each of the Moffs a knife and allowing them to execute the Emperor with his powers drained away by the Dark Side. Suffice to say a more Pompey vs. Caesar struggle between the Senate and deposed leader is going to take place now. Krayt however, controls Rome-Coruscant and thus controls the world even as the Emperor in exile has since claimed the Easten capital of the Empire.

Given Marasiah Fel is never embraced by the Senate, while Fel may yet be Emperor HIS DAUGHTER IS NOT THE HEIR. She is merely his pick of the candidates and the end of the Emperor would mean that she and her faction lose all legitimacy. The Empire would be free to ratify General Krayt to the position of Emperor without legal challenge. This the Imperial Knights must now allow because they would lose their status of privilege. Of course, Antares Draco is ambitious enough to intend to jump from trumped up guardsman to Royal by his corruption of the innocent Marasiah via marriage.

 

While I agree overall, Charles, that last paragraph is utterly and completely unsupported. And, to the contrary, all the information we have suggests that she is the rightful heir, and no amount of trying to shoehorn the situation into an analogy - no matter how forcefully - into which it does not actually fit will make it so.

Otherwise, good analysis (though of course it, too, is a bit gapped simply because the analogy doesn't extend perfectly).

- Keralys

 

I am being unbashedly supporting of Morlish Veed and Darth Krayt in that final paragraph so something should be off there. Also, Marasiah Fel is the heir to Emperor Fel but not the Empire's heir. Jon indicated that the Moff council was required to ratify the Emperorship on some level. That's only legal precedent from Palpatine's time.

This is all just a legal fiction though because if Fel wins the war then he can just replace the Moffs with his own candidates.

 

Indeed. I thought something seemed a bit odd. (Hey, look at this! We're being amicable! Go us! ) Veed, to me, seems to be really at the heart of the evil that has taken over the Empire. While ruthless and motivated by his own causes, Fel has never struck me as evil. He's never struck me as being some insanely noble man who would sacrifice everything for just one life (as a Jedi allegedly would), but he does strike me as being significnatly more noble than someone like Veed, Krayt, or for that matter almost any emperors we've previously seen. He seems to be a moral man, if not necessarily a good man. Of course, whether his regret over the war truly stems from concern for his people or from his own loss of power is moot, but it has always seemed more of the former to me than of the latter.

- Keralys

 

Well I think that Fel is probably a typical example of the Imperial government. Not insanely cruel or psychotic but a man whom is willing to do whatever it takes to win his conflicts. My accusations at their worst to Emperor Fel are that he seemed to believe he could control the Sith when he really should have known better. I do think that, in all likelihood, Emperor Fel is also an extraordinarily ambitious man. Even if he's a former Jedi master, that doesn't change the possibility that he might well want to rule over a Galactic Empire. Conquerors have been given a by in history by most historians and that clearly is what Fel intended by intending to subjugate the Jedi Knighthood into the Imperial Knights along with annex all of the Galactic Alliance's territory. That seems to be what he's been up to.

That doesn't make him any worse than Napoleon Bonaparte or indeed, most historical leaders after defeating an enemy. Certainly, if Fel believes his own press, he considers the Imperial Emperorship his by right of his pedigree rather than something that is given by a mandate from the people.

Thumb Wars: No, you must live! To preserve the ideals of rulership by BIRTHRIGHT!

Simultaneously, I also think that Morlish Veed isn't the cardboard cartoonish villain people think he might be. I think that Morlish Veed has the very modern opinion that the leadership of the Empire should belong in the hand of the strongest military leader as opposed to that of a group of force sensitive magicians. This is the Thrawn-Pellaeon school of running things that he's bringing the Empire back to and there's no indication that the Grand Admiral intends to pass it down to his kids either.

Yes, he plotted a coup that accidentally got the galaxy in the hands of the Sith but what really is the big difference between him and Fel?

 

Here's where I disagree, though: I don't think it's as clear cut as Fel wanting to be ruler of the galaxy. It ended up happening, but it wasn't necessarily his cause for going to war. Indeed, from what we know of the situation thus far (and we're really not going to be able to speculate accurately until we have #8), it seems to me that it's more likely that he invoked the Treaty of Anaxes not as part of a move to take power, but because he (and much of the galaxy) clearly perceived the Yuuzhan Vong as a real threat, and the GA as a threat for standing with them. If they were unaware of the manipulation by the Sith, then their actions are easily understood - and perhaps even excusable. Certainly the GA would have done the same, and given what we've seen of them so far in LotF, they'd have been willing to do so with far less provocation.

That doesn't make him terribly brutal or megalomaniacal; to the contrary it allows for a great deal of nobility in his character without any overarching hunger for power. And what #0 told us about him suggested that he was resistant to the idea of war, and fought the moffs but wasn't strong enough to keep them from pushing their territorial agenda. This isn't to say that he doesn't have one, but again you're making assumptions based on your biases rather than based on what the evidence actually shows. I personally think we might see a strong noble streak, but I think there's also a good probability that we won't. I'm willing to reserve actual judgment until we get the facts. *quirked eyebrow* That's something that is in very short supply around here (and I'm in no way singling you out here, Charles; despite our disagreements you usually seem better about that than most in these parts).

EDIT - the difference between Veed and Fel may be large or not. We don't know enough yet to say. My gut read is this: Veed is extremely power-hungry, whereas Fel was more interested in the general good. That's not to say that Veed doesn't see his actions as being in line with general good, nor that Fel isn't at all megalomaniacal, but that those are their stronger characteristics as compared to the other. Moreover, while Veed clearly manipulated a war into happening, what evidence we do have suggests that Fel resisted it until it was inevitable and then tried to conduct it in the best way he could, given the circumstances. Some of that is my relatively pro-Fel bias speaking, but some of it is simply the fact that one of them actively schemed to put the Sith in power over the Empire, to start a war, etc. The other did not.

- Keralys

 

The major flaw in this comparison is, that Julius Caesar was never what we would call emperor.

And if Morlish Veed wanted to keep the empire save from Force-using, religious nutjobs congregulations to him for handing it over to the worst kind of Force-users.

 

I admit that my assumption is based primarily on the fact of Jon Ostrander's Republic works where not everything is clearly cut and dry so much as people think. Quinlan Vos' arc had to deal with numerous people who weren't what they seemed to be. A great deal of Legacy is cut in shades of gray and we really only have Roan Fel's speech to give us insight into his character.

I also think its applying morality that's not necessarily going to be universally accepted by even a "good man" that Fel should disregard the ambitions. We're going to find out the truth in Legacy 8# to a large extent and I have no doubt most of what you say will be true.

But you're right, Fel could turn out to be King Arthur for all we know.

I will point out though that Roan Fel was anxious to spread the Empire through the mission as well territory wise.

 

True, the analogy is hardly perfect. Though the Tyrant slaying and coup aspects have been aspects for years in analogy.

And let's not forget though that Morlish Veed doesn't intend for Krayt to stay on the throne for very long. The only reason he probably hasn't made a move yet is he's waiting for the Old slab of rotting meat to die of his own accord and then intends to move against the Sith while they're utterly confused.

 

Yes, but Caesar's murderes wanted to save the Rupublic, not take it over. What you are suggesting is somebody like Marc Anthony killing Caesar to establish himself as dictator of Rome.

 

Well we don't know Morlish Veed's motivations for his coup are completely self serving either. While Brutus was believed to have done so for noble reasons, certainly many of his fellow conspirators were also motivated by a mixture of the selfish with the selfless.

Ironically, Morlish's actions could be considered more akin to Caesar himself. To save the Empire from the incompetence of the heir that will be Marasiah Fel.

 

Is there any reason to believe she's incompetent? Issue #0 indicates that most of the trepidation, where it exists, comes from the fact that she's simply not male.

 

I find it difficult to believe Morlish is going to be objecting to her Emperorship on that basis when he's married to Yssane Isard.

I also think it's fairly clear that Marasiah is intelligent, brave, noble, and idealistic....and really needing a LONG time til she's ready to rule over the Empire by her choices in the comic.

 

Well...he's in cahoots with a female Moff, if that's what you mean, and no one said that Morlish was one of those people that is a bit hesitant at the idea of having a woman on the throne. The quoted rebuttal is only valid if your assumptions are all true. We don't yet know why Veed wants the throne, or the nature of this whole conspiracy. It's clear Morlish really expected Krayt to hand the throne to him (his reaction shots in #1 to Krayt's speech about a "man of vision" are priceless).

 

Well his Imperial Majesty is certainly an extremely competent individual GrandAdmiralJello. The very fact that he's able to successfully renegotiate the former capital of the Empire out from under the noses of Emperor Krayt says something about the man's ability to conduct a gureilla campaign even if he's had seven years to plan such a daring act.

I firmly am convinced that Marasiah Fel would be an incredible Empress if she displayed half the wit of her father. Instead, Marasiah Fel spends most of her time running away and seperated from her father's side while simultaneously only barely avoiding getting captured by Cade and his bounty hunters. I also find her oratory abilities to be severely lacking as her appeals to Cade and company on the level of what is right seemed to be fundamentally lacking in understanding their motivations.

Call it a feeling but Fel seems to be very practical while his daughter seems not to be and above all things, an Emperor must be practical. I have no doubt that MOST of the Moffs are sexist to her but it seems the Grand Admiral and his wife would be the exception to this.

As for Morlish Veed, the fact is that he didn't necessarily invite the Sith into the ranks of the Empire and even if he approved of it....Emperor Fel accepted this aid. Furthermore the man, unlike Emperor Fel, is a die hard veteran of the Sith-Imperial War that he as Grand Admiral is certainly the one who successfully waged to a conclusion that resulted in the Empire's conquest of the galaxy. If nothing else Grand Admiral Jello, you must respect the man's martial accomplishments.

While it may be that his motives are purely based on power, I am suspicious of the idea that there is much more to the man's desires than meets the eye. At the very least there is ample room for him to object to the Fel dynasty on multiple angles if we assume he is a typical atheistic Imperial.

 

As if to confirm of Jello's point about your imagination, you continue to insist that Moff Nyna Calixte is married to Grand Admiral Morlish Veed.s

I don't think Jello disparaged Veed's competence at all, he just said he was a usurper and a bad guy.

And all our eyes have really met so far is that he joined with Nyna Calixte and her Sith buddies in an elaborate plot to take out Emperor Fel and place Veed on the throne in his stead.

 

While it seems they're only lovers, I think it was hinted on the boards by the writers they may be married. I could be mistaken on this of course and it doesn't seem like a high profile set of politicians would be allowed to have such a relationship.

 

But again, it's unproven, so far, so to continue to build arguments on assumptions, wishes, and half baked ideas as if they were certainties distorts the discussion. For all we know Veed doesn't care about her at all, but if I were to build Veed up to be an uncaring soul, using people as pawns in his rise to power for power's sake, that would be similarly unsubstantiated.

::shrug::

So, Imperial Knights, anyone?

Is it confirmed by Jan and Jon that they're merely the royal guard, or do they serve a similar function as Jedi (humanitarians, diplomats, etc.)?

 

This is a silly notion--should Justinian have handed the Eastern Roman throne to Belisarius because he was a good general?

Again, see my reference to Justinian and Belisarius.

Only 17 years after the death of Justinian I(527-565) Emperor Tiberius II Constantine(574-582) did just that: named his general Maurice - who would also become his son-in-law - as his heir. And Maurice(582-602) was not a bad Emperor. And certainly Belisarius(d.565) - if he would have survived longer than he did - would have been a better heir than the soon insane Justin II(565-578).

If the state is heavily militarized like the New Galactic Empire, and if the times are desperate, then a kind of military meritocracy would make sense from the Imperial point of view. Even when it comes to the succession to the Imperial throne.