ST The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

The movie literally tells us through the character of DJ that not choosing sides is wrong.

 

Thanks. And I just realized you can juxtapose it with Kylo Ren’s forced mind-probe of Rey in TFA.

 

I can see that conclusion being drawn but I think more people would fail to make it than would. Certainly a child and many teens would not see the destination. Its very, very different to Yoda explaining the difference between the Dark side and good in TESB as an example.

Luke of cause scolds Rey for not even trying to stop the Dark Side but goes into no detail as to why she should. Again its open to interpretation that she is so pure that it has no impact on her but again I think more people would miss that than come to that conclusion.

I think the Canto Blight scene showing the weapon dealers selling to both factions makes a stronger argument that there is no right side. Both are buying for the same means to an end and I think thats the message thats being tried to be made. I'm not really sure what is being attempted to be told there to be honest. Its kind of like calling out the 5 permanent members of the UN security council being the top 5 arms dealing countries. People profit from war and innocence suffers.

 

I think it's a direct repudiation of those who take a middle ground stance in battles between fascism and freedom, and those who play off both sides against each other. It's saying that there is a right side and that being neutral is just as bad supporting the bad side - thus DJ's and Finn's last exchange.

At least that's how I see it.

 

Yeah I think thats right but its a watered down message isn't it?

 

Has any other Jedi died just from using a force ability?

 

Not that I can think of. Not sure a power that works like a bee sting for the user is all that helpful really.


Is also really counter intuitive to Yoda saying the The force is a life force that flows through you and is your ally? A power the sucks the life from you is not in that spirit at all. I wonder if its a dark side power?

 

I didn't expect anything from these movies, honestly!, when they were announced except that they were going to be pointless sequels to something that was wrapped up properly a long time ago. I would have looked forward to them if I knew they were going to be all-new, set years and years ahead, with a brand new cast and plot. That would have been exciting, even if the movies were similar to the OT. But it was obvious they couldn't max the profits if they didn't bring back the old cast, make the fight never really over, and go "..ok we thought that was a new hope, but this is now the new hope, really".

But even then sitting through TLJ still sucked, and sitting through TFA would have sucked if I liked Han Solo more. There was still a sliver of hope in TFA that there was a good reason why Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple..

I didn't have any specific plot expectations for TLJ other than what TFA semaphored- such as Rey's connection with Luke being important. Or "family" apparently being important.
I knew Luke wasn't going to be allowed to be a father, because he might as well be dickless to your average Star Wars watcher, but I guess I expected them to explain their connection better. A lightsaber can now 'call' to someone?

Anyways, how unsurprising that in the new movies, with the new studio head, Han and Luke ran away with their tails between their legs leaving Leia to clean up the crap. The misunderstandings and buffonlike bumbling that led Ben to be that far gone paint an even stupider picture of these two. Like after ALL Luke has been through, he wouldn't be super careful about the risk force-sensitive people have in turning dark. And where was Anakin's ghost in all of this?

I get that having skyhigh expectations and unrealistic scenarios is bad when going into a new movie. In this case, I can't really relate to people who wanted to see Luke in some sort of huge lightsaber battle, or *shudder* actually be killed by his whiny nephew. I think Luke at that point should have been largely above lightsabers and more Yodalike.

..But then Yoda shows up only to make it seem like Luke is still the dopey little naysayer from Dagobah.
Just UGH.

And then the ending where he 'saves' a measly dozen people who already KNEW about him-- at a point, by the way, where it feels like the movie should have already ended earlier-- just sort of poots away.

....And at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering, but why does Luke suddenly have really dark hair? I mean, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Light side abilities, I've only seen/read about it happening once. In the now discarded EU novel Darksaber, Dorsk 81 (yes that's a character's name) at Luke's Jedi Academy dies after he and several Jedi converge and --in a very unique situation that is not repeated-- channel the Force together to push a fleet of invading Star Destroyers away from Yavin IV. It's well-explained how he died, but basically because he serves as the central conduit for the Force in how it is used in this situation....and the immense power passing through his body to accomplish the task physically burns him up.

Point is, in reference and comparison to TLJ - UNLIKE in TLJ- it's a noble but sad end to a Force user, and well explained and conveyed how and why it happens in the Darksaber story. And though it's sad, it doesn't feel empty and pointless like Luke's end does.

 

Not in my opinion. I think it's a big middle finger to those who say 'well everyone's the bad guy right?'. Sometimes that's true. Against fascism? Never.

 

So you think it has a strong message the tells the audience the difference between good and evil? I don't get that but am fine with others taking that away.

 

I don't think it's so much highlighting the difference between good and evil, as it is stating that the moral equivalence of both sides, and therefore supporting no-one, is itself stance rather than the absence of one. Therefore 'don't join' isn't really being impartial, but rather helping both side, either through action or inaction (and therefore helping the evil side as well as the good).

 

Yes but we were discussing my original point -

"It is a fundamental complaint that I have that SW has diverged from one about the battle between good and evil and right and wrong into a message of incoherence. We have enough grey areas in life but StarWars built a moral code in kids and that was a really good thing."​

Now to be fair "incoherence" is in keeping with my disdain for the movie. It could be replaced with a less confrontation word at which time I think we are essentially agreeing.

 

Rather I think this film reinforces the idea good and evil are things. It suggests that moral ambiguity is irrelevant against such evil.

 

This is part of the anodyne post-structural, relativistic deconstruction of Luke. Get rid of his innocence - the inner goodness. Luke in the OT made mistakes, misunderstood things, wasn't very knowledgable, in other words was not all powerful, but was basically good. He triumphed over the adversity through his goodness. Goodness has been thrown away in terms of making him powerful (i.e.: Force Projection. This is also seen in Leia: she is powerful - Force revival, force flying). In a relativistic understanding of morals there is no goodness but WHO rules. Who is in power - might is right. Relativism leads to dictatorship. This comes across in RJ's artistic approach. When Mark Hamill said to him that people may not like the interpretation of Luke, RJ said (in short) everyone has their own interpretations of Luke, which is ok, but this is my interpretation, my movie and this is what I am doing. RJ is the powerful one - so his interpretation is right (might is right, dictatorship).

However, as Mark Hamill said - no RJ is not right, even if he is the powerful director, he just created another character - Jake Skywalker.

 

In no way is Luke relativistic in this movie.

Nor is Rian's interpretation objectively 'wrong' compared to yours.

 

The thing with TLJ is what RJ did with Luke created unnecessary pain and the movie has suffered from it. Whilst the movie is titled The Last Jedi you can pretty much take him out of the movie and it would have very little impact to the story.

Or another way to look at it. If they made Lukes role different in a way that didn't create hurt would the people who currently like the movie change to hating it? I very, very much doubt they would and instead of 51% of RT reviews disliking the movie it would be 80% liking it like TFA and maybe held BO numbers better after the massive opening weekend.

How could that be a bad thing and how could this story make it to production without someone saying "hey this isn't going to go down well".

That doesn't mean Luke needs to be shown as a superhuman without challenge but I am at a loss how anyone agreed that the story present was a good one.

 

I would agree with you if Luke did stuff that was objectively against his character (like what he did in the EU). I know you won't agree with me but I don't think there is anything in the movie that is actually against Luke character. It's just not made crystal clear for the audience.

 

Just a few examples:

1. Luke goes pacifist and thinks Jedi should not interfer. A friend close to Ben is killed because of his inactivity.
2. Luke trusts someone with dark side tendency too much (Snoke).
3. Luke kills someone because of misjudgement in a battle (maybe Snoke manipulation).
4. Luke has his favorite student (not Ben) and Ben feels rejected.
5. Luke & Leia maybe develop some kind of tension about the way Jedi should help the galaxy. Ben is in the middle of this conflict.

as you can see none of it has Luke entering Ben's room in the night with an ignited weapon, while it would still create a little understanding why Ben goes a different way.

 

Ben Solo is very different to Anakin Skywalker. Luke managed to turn Anakin back to the light because he knew Anakin used to be a good person but fell to the dark side and had been entrapped by it. Ben Solo on the other hand.....Luke detected a dark soul within him, something dark, evil and twisted. I don't think Kylo will be redeemed. He is unreachable and Luke knew that.

I was surprised that Luke had genuinely fled to the island to die, but the climax to his story was absolutely brilliant. He realised that his legend was more powerful than he was. It was a very strong message. His sacrifice at the end was Luke's redemption.

 

I'm assuming from this if that scene hadn't been included you would have be fine with the characterisation?

 

Never the less after being a SW fan for 40 years its a movie I hate so much I would never watch it a 2nd time. My circle of friends who love StarWars and that I have known since childhood have similar feeling as do a whole stack of people voicing them on the internet.

I have loved and enjoyed every other StarWars movie and defended them until I had no voice left. This movie is vastly different in the reaction it has created than anything proceeding it and I'm not meaning in a good way.

But you never answered my question. In the trailers Luke was presented in a way that I think made people assume he would be shown in a good light as a wise mentor and tutor. If that was done would you have hated that movie as much as I do now?

 

Didnt a kid die in the books after pulling down a bunch of star destroyers from space? I think in I, Jedi?

Anyway, like i said somewhere else.

The scene would've been better if Luke was probing Ben and while inside Ben wakes up and sees Luke thinking of killing him in his head but because he is still half awake he thinks it's in real life then what you see in the movie happens.

Because the second that Luke pulled out his saber and turn it on....come on, that's over the line. I know he can see the future but when you do that the intention is clear.

I mean, did he not learn from ESB? The vision of his friends in pain was a trap from Vader. Han Solo even tells us the viewer, "They didnt even asked me any questions." The future visions are not totally clear.

What Luke saw was probably happening because Ben woke up and saw him with the saber on. That future he was seeing was probably one cause by his actions.

Yes, they try to sprinkle bits about him being dark side already but Luke should've been trying to help him.

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I thought I was going to have the same opinion as you as I think I have same opinion of Luke as you. But I now have a different opinion. So maybe you'll change your mind.

What I will say is don't focus upon what you would have done and try and reconcile Luke's actions with the personality that you know.

 

I would have been less upset about it. Yes, I can live with a broken Luke for the right and in character reasons. I can live with a Luke who has flaws, he had flaws in the OT, but as someone said, his heart was always good. This was changed with the flashback and that Luke did not make any attempt to help Ben (yes, even this attempt could have failed, but that Luke just ran away was sadly again OOC).