ST The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

I get your point but I don't want to change my mind. Believing in the story of Luke is something that has been with me my whole life and it was very special. Its not head canon but its the idea of character. Luke brought the Empire to his knees through a story of redemption and compassion. There is nothing that can make my distaste for TLJ change where I could appreciate how they used him to make the most economic story possible. Or making me believe him dying can create a spark of hope when his actions in life to defeat the Empire, Destroy a Death Star and redeem the father couldn't. Those alone would have inspired a generation though-out the universe in triumph of victory. It probably would have created legions of holy warriors. Or accepting that he is so flawed that he can't even burn down a dead tree successfully and is simply waiting to die. Or that he is scared of the power that Kylo and Rey poses.

In TFA Maz suggests to Rey that Luke can be her future. I bought into that story and I went to midnight screening like every other SW that night wanting to be inspired by Luke Skywalker again. I left feeling so absolutely and terribly miserable I wanted to un-see the movie. Unfortunately I do not believe there is any possibility for me and a pretty large segment of OT fans to ever be able to enjoy TLJ.

 

I'm sorry but the portrayal of Luke isn't out of character. Look at the facts:

1. His father was an extremely powerful, very ambitious and ultra-confident jedi. But when things didn't go his way he sulked, he whinged and had tantrums which resulted in innocents being killed. He then went and slaughtered innocent young jedi because he was told to. He turned to the dark side.
2. His nephew was/is an extremely powerful, very ambitious and ultra-confident (in some ways not in others). But when things didn't go his way he sulked, he whinged and had tantrums. He killed and slaughtered innocents and turned to the dark side.

Luke isn't either of these people - he is a good person but its pretty naïve to say there are no elements of any of that in his character somewhere. He is better than either of them which is why he didn't Ben in his sleep but to say he is too pure to consider it is nonsense. Likewise when things go badly, its in his bloodline to take a sulk away in exile.

As for the go-getter attitude. In he originals he is supposed to be aged 20 or so. Sorry for after doing the same thing for 20-40 years and most people are going to have had enough. That's just the way it goes. If you've lost confidence that what you are doing is right and your ability to do, you aren't going to be the same go-getter 40 years later.

Yeah before the film came out, I'd have like to see Luke come out with his light sabre and save the day but with hindsight what's the point ? we've all done that film in our head anyway. What RJ did was brave and worked well (in my opinion). The Skywalker bloodline has changed since the originals and people have to accept its a flawed bloodline - powerful but with good and bad. Its not what people have created in their own head but maybe people are too attached to a fictional character.

 

someone posted a preview about latest SW comics (I stopped subscription). Seems they are preparing a depressed Luke already in the time between ANH and ESB (this comic plays on Crait). He then needs a pep talk of Leia. So that's the Luke we can expect from the time between ROTJ and TFA....yikes

 

Well firstly your comparing regular human traits to a Jedi. I'm not sure you can do that. Secondly your making a generalisation that everyone becomes jaded with age when a great many people expand their wisdom, understanding and compassion. I certainly feel more confident and in control of my life than I did at 20 and believe I have had some pretty daunting challenges. Well they seemed so to me anyways. I think I'm also happier. Some people over time hone their skills. With age move from being apprentices to masters of their craft. You need time to gain skill, knowledge and experience. You also gain the ability to use it.

Thirdly your suggesting Luke would regress to his worse character flaws and not allow that by becoming a Jedi he has learnt control over them which is a key lesson starting in the cave in TESB and concluding into the final of ROTJ.

Vader was nearly killed, is half machine and lost everyone. How come he didn't go into hiding through the lose of confidence and personal insult?

I respectively, yet flatly disagree with your assesment. I didn't need to see Luke fight but I needed to like him still. I like Mark in television interviews more than Luke in TLJ.

@nightangel OMG!!!

 

This is a bit on the nose, but it’s goosebump inducing to me.
I don’t see depression here, I see responsibility.
Edit: sorry, didn’t realise it was teeth gnashing thread, so fair enough. Appreciate the posting of this comic though, I might restart buying them

 

Anakin did go into hiding. From himself and the galaxy.

 

Luke between ANH and ESB =/= Luke between ESB and RotJ, nor post-RotJ.

Imo in part the ANH-ESB materials focus on Luke’s self-doubt - that is, apparently, the canon reason why his Force abilities took so long to develop.

 

Jedi are human though. Luke is a human so will have human traits.

Sure everyone ages differently. I'm not saying that was had to happen - I'm just saying its realistic for it to happen. If you compare being a jedi to having a job or even a hobby everyone is more energetic about the job and hobby when they start than 40 years down the line. Its not a reach at all to say that 40 years down the line of fighting in wars, seeing friends get killed , he simply doesn't want to do it any more. People retire from work for this reason.

I'm saying instead of regressing to his worst character flaws he has some control. Unlike Anakin and his nephew, he didn't kill Ben whilst he was sleeping but it would be natural there is an urge to. Likewise when he sulked, he didn't lash out - turn to the dark side and so on.

To me it seemed a reasonable, natural and acceptable character progression. Ultimately he was still the hero. He along with Rey saved the Resistance from being wiped out - in his own way he may have saved the galaxy whilst sacrificing himself and become a legend. Its a pretty fitting way to go out without needing to go down the predictable route.

 

How is a Jedi human? Luke lives on a planet with no vegetation and two suns. How can you compare being a Jedi to having a job? 50 Million star systems and 1 Jedi. He is a special case.

 

Are you saying Luke isn’t human?

 

Sometimes, I have the impression that RJ had an objective : make Kylo Ren more sympathetic, culminating with Rey trying to redeem him.

For this purpose he writes Luke as a non welcoming hermit, it makes Rey extremely lonely and vulnerable. And he makes Luke more or less responsible of creating Kylo Ren.
In addition, he writes Rey as 'afraid' (instead of curious for instance) and obsessed with her parents being somebodies (instead of obsessed with her family coming back).

Therefore, I would argue that from these starting points, the story 'rolls down' naturally to a Kylo Ren becoming more sympathetic. This objective is reasonable story-wise, but it feels like the setup, the chosen starting point, damages Luke (and Rey) in an arbitrary manner, bordeline inconsistent with their depictions in the previous episodes.

 

@modaubr I wrote this the other day. I might move it here as its more appropriate in this thread but I think is inline with your thoughts.

Its funny but my take on the state of things is that RJ wanted the audience to feel sympathy for Kylo. To do that he has created a series of scenes where the audience reaction to Kylo is more sympathetic than Lukes was in the movie. People are arguing that very thing and that Luke hasn't given Kylo the benefit he showed Vader and that Luke is out of character.

Of cause its out of character as it is the only way to create a senerio where anyone could be sympathetic to Kylo. If the most understanding Jedi in the galaxy wants you dead then everyone is against you.

There is no character progression for Lukes character cause he is simply altered for the story. If you show more of the conflict, which they have done everything possible to avoid you loose all sympathy for Kylo and the audience is agreeing with Lukes point of view. People make it already with the killing baby Hitler comparision. The only way to feel sympathy for Kylo is to suggest he may not have become Hitler.

Regardless I don't think its worked and few really care for a Kylo redemption story. He killed Han and Luke and waiting for his demise is the only reward worth waiting for. If that doesn't happen then "meh" what a lame story.

Well at least in my point of view.​

 

Totally agree. In other words, RJ's writing has the subtlety of a supertanker.

 

I think it was worse than that cause to me his style is just to deliver a story as quickly and as economically as possible. The 40 years that came before it means nothing other than being a ways to get theatres full but then to then progress the story of Rey and Kylo.

I find it odd that we get introduced to Luke being responsible for Kylo and now Rey is left to fix the problem. The only reason for that is cause Disney don't want to tell a story with Luke. I think us fans think it could have been told with both. I wanted both.

 

I feel thankful that I`m not that interested in the comics because that wouldn`t entice me to read them. So much navel-gazing and whinging in just two pages.

And maybe they are going for this "you only need to believe to unlock every force achievement you want" but since I find that idea annoying, this can miss me as well.

I`ve debated with myself if I can possibly see TLJ as a viable continuation of the Saga and still view the OT movies without rolling my eyes at characters and secretely think "you end up as a loser and failure so why bother right now". And the thing is, I can not.

The OT only keeps working for me and keeps the characters rootable and likeable if this isn`t how I envision they end up as. If they were all still young(ish) and this failure-all-over-the-place was the set-up or middle chapter of a new trilogy with the expectation that they would all redeem themselves from it and ultimately have their achievements - only a little bit later than expected - then TLJ would be no biggie to me.

But Luke is dead now. He really was a big failure for six years - that I couldn`t get onboard with in the way it was told, more than what was told - and didn`t have a remotely satisfying redemption for me onscreen. And I can`t have a realistic expectations that the redemption of the character will still come. This was supposed to be it and, frankly, you need a lot more for me to redeem yourself from cowardice. It is my number one turn-off in fictional characters.

 

Perhaps the biggest misconception of all is that there were no hints at all of the kinds of weaknesses in Luke that could lead to the state he finds himself in 30 years after the end of ROTJ. Johnson clearly draws from each deliberately written out moment of weakness and creates a scenario that begins with fear, escalates briefly to anger, and ultimately suffering that manifests from Luke's former weaknesses returning. People can take issue with these weaknesses returning over a 30 year span of course. However, they can not pretend that they did not exist in the first place or that people are incapable of making the same mistakes again over long periods of time. Especially when the biggest mistake of them all (briefly listening to the Dark Side) didn't actually lead to devastating consequences for the individual. There are hints throughout the OT that telegraph the kind of fall Luke could experience and handle poorly in moments of weakness if not in his right mind.


















One can disagree over whether these issues would be resolved easily following the pleasant outcome Luke Skywalker experiences at the end of ROTJ or if the pleasant outcome itself would have lead to him moving past these issues and not fully dealing with them in a manner that would allow them to return but the hints of the fall that could someday occur if he wasn't careful for the rest of his life have been there on screen the whole time. People can be frustrated that Johnson chose to revisit these weaknesses again later in his life to explore a combination of fear, anger, and eventual suffering that he'd been able to avoid earlier -- implying that Luke had not fully resolved these weaknesses and that he hadn't always remembered the cave at all times of his life -- but it's a misconception to imply that there were no hints in the OT of what could someday happen. Overcoming them once doesn't negate these very deliberately chosen personality traits in the character. They may be the least favorite aspects of Luke Skywalker, for both fans and himself, but they are portrayed on-screen as being an aspect of who he is. Weaknesses as clear to his design as kryptonite and desire to be everything to everyone is to Superman.

Similarly, to imply he's incapable of even considering murder against evil of any kind because of his very personal desire to connect with the father he never knew is more interpretative than what's shown on screen. Luke Skywalker is capable of death on a massive scale, impacting the lives of countless people -- some of whom may not have made up their minds yet fully to become evil or who were trying to find their way out of the Empire -- when he believes it will avoid future pain and suffering.






To deny that he's incapable of considering murder to avoid future pain and suffering is not factual. He's murdered hundreds of thousands of individuals driven by that exact same logic. And his desire to connect with the father he never knew as a younger man is not, in fact, the same scenario as what he is dealing with as an older man versus Ben Solo.

 

I think you have interpreted quite a few things in some pretty unique ways. Good for you and pleased you like TLJ.

 

At first I agreed with the naysayers and even thought Luke going into exile in TFA was out of character and the only thing that consoled me was the hope that Luke seeking out the first Jedi Temple was a sign he didn't just give up but was seeking greater wisdom.

Alas TLJ proves that Luke really did feel responsible for the fall of Ben and the failure of restarting the Jedi and kind of gave up. At first this was disappointing but the more I mull over the movie and rewatch it and the other movies the more I realize it's not out of character at all and actually makes more sense.

I think the issue is many of us fans growing up with Star Wars have kind of idolized Luke to the point where he becomes more of an icon than a character but if you look back at the OT, there are hints of his flaws that eventually come to fruition later in life.

Look at ROTJ for once. Sure Luke overall learns from his failures in Empire and becomes a better person for it but he's still young and very much prone to anger. He Force chokes the Gamorean guards, he's arrogant as hell with Jabba etc. Most importantly is he actually does give into his anger and hatred of the Emperor and is literally about to kill him! He would have turned to the dark side had Darth Vader not blocked him from killing Palpatine! Later despite his trying so hard to be patient and compassionate in trying to redeem his father, Vader's threat to Leia pushes him over and he goes into a rage and nearly kills his father. Sure, he ultimately resists but he DID initially have that moment of rage and anger in defense of all he loves.

This is essentially the same thing that happens when he for a brief moment considers killing Ben after probing his mind and seeing the potential future of Ben destroying everything he holds dear.

Luke was still young and inexperienced and failed his Jedi training. He did not turn out like Yoda hoped. He left Dagobah in Empire to save his friends and then when he finally returns to Yoda it's too late and Yoda is dying. Luke had the enormous pressure of not only becoming a Jedi without guidance (Obi Wan and Yoda both being dead) but he had to literally restart the entire Jedi Order all on his own! Thinking back on it, it's just more realistic that there would be setbacks and false starts and that failure could very easily befall him.

Ultimately at the end of TLJ, Luke does regain hope and faith in the rise of the Jedi again. Rey helps him reignite the hope that was always there within him.

 

The frames you posted are from perhaps my favourite scene in the entire saga. It is nowhere near my least favourite aspect of the character. That scene made me go "yeaaaah" and pump my fists.

My least favourite aspect of the character in TLJ is cowardice. Where is the scene in the OT that shows him being a coward?

Blowing up the Death Star is another cheer-moment and it happens in battle. If he had been driven to attempt a strike too far against Ben in anger and rage during battle, I wouldn`t have the sligthest problem with it. People losing it in battle, I can fully understand.

To me it is not remotely the same situation to whenever the other guy is asleep.

All those moments in ROTJ were fantastically badass to me. And again, not cowardly.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect here in terms of what people have a problem with. Which for me it`s not that Luke could be dark. Of course he can. Even if it wasn`t clear as day in the OT that he is not just pure as a fluffy bunny, I wouldn`t have a problem with it. Everyone can be dark.

He wasn`t dark in TLJ. Not even in that Rashomon flashback where he ignites the lightsaber. On a darkness scale I still give that a "pfft". I found it more stupid than dark.
And afterwards he wasn`t dark either. He was, in starkest terms, a wimp. This is what I disliked about it.

 

You've missed the moral of the Original Trilogy and Star Wars then. Anger and hatred are not supposed to be celebrated as "badass" but as dangerous steps towards the dark side of the Force.

Luke was ready to kill an old man he thought was unarmed and defenseless. "I am unarmed. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!" Many people don't realize that Vader/Anakin actually saves Luke's soul here. His experience in ROTS of killing the defenseless Dooku out of anger and hate definitely haunt him and as he is being redeemed he reflects that it was the moment of no return for his journey towards the dark side. Something he helps Luke avoid. It's beautiful really. "It's not the Jedi way!"

 

You’re completely misreading his act. It’s closer to Batman at the end of Dark Knight volunteering to seem the bad guy for the greater good. It’s a throwback moment to Yoda and Obi-wan’s advice to not risk confronting Vader before working through his own lessons related to himself first or risk falling to the Dark Side. Young confidence and the old school sense of heroism is what made him avoid their wisdom back then. Don’t you see? Johnson’s whole film is centered on this whole concept. Poe Dameron faces it and tries to pull a Luke in TESB against the advice of Leia who tells him it’s too risky and loses more than his arm. Luke could have been at risk of falling at the end of TESB. Instead he chose a suicide jump that thankfully didn’t work. Poe loses a big part of their remaining squadron. Luke is concerned that he could become an agent of evil if he’s not careful and doesn’t figure out how to deal with the darkness that consumes all Skywalker men so he goes into exile to protect the people he loves most. Instead, the solitary nature pushes him through the stages of grief and he projects his issues onto the Jedi as a whole. It’s similar to his jumping off the ledge moment. Only now it’s a slow fall on Ahch-to. A sort of self imposed purgatory at a bucketlist destination he’s always wanted to find. It’s a different form of selflessness but one similar to his jump in Empire. Both are driven by the biggest aspect of Luke’s character core. His desire to not fall as his father had or to see a future generation fall as he had. That’s what tears him up inside until the hero gets help from R2, Yoda, Chewie, Rey and reconnects his faith to the Force and realizes Leia does need him and returns and becomes one with the Force.

 

I have a host of problems with what has been done with Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, but this one I find no justification for in my mind. He was the antithesis of this in the OT.

 

Defenseless? He pulled that same "ooooh, I`m poor and defenseless" stuff in the PT, right before he shot his lightning again. The Empire was never, ever defenseless and Luke would never have landed that shot. Vader or not Vader. Trying it was what I expected a hero to do when faced with the ultimate evil.

I love the OT but the "dark side" was always chicken-littling to me. Luke being angry and winning a fight against Vader never made me fear for a second that he would suddenly lightswitch to evil. Even as a child I found the idea ludicrous. Have not changed my mind. Anakin fall`s in ROTS suffered from some of the same "am I really evil now? I guess I am" whiplash writing. There were set-ups on the character`s darkness but his actual fall scene was silly.

That is one thing I will hand the ST. Kylo Ren struggling with good/evil is a lot more palatable to me.

I never saw it as wisdom and I don`t do so now. Getting off your a** and trying to help was the decent thing to do. "Let your friends die" is as disgraceful advice to me as "miss them not, mourn them not". That goes completely against my moral compass and I reject it wholewheartedly.

In contrast what happened with Poe in the beginning of TLJ was that he made a strategic misjudgement. Putting their entire bomber fleet at risk to get one ship, even if it posed a significant threat was a miscall. This is not the same thing to me.

What Batman did at the end of Dark Knight was also not the same thing. He sacrificed his public image for the greater good. Luke just ran away, his image remained. Everyone was trying to find him because of that good image of yesteryore.

He went to Ahch-To to die and end the Jedi. He just navel-gazes and lets himself go into a shame-spiral. It is his own self-justification for not going and trying to rectify his mistake that he convinces himself the Jedi are so harmful. That self-justification on its own is something I dislike. It doesn`t make the character look better to me.

And RJ can`t have it both ways, he can`t say old-fashioned ideas of heroism are bad and need to be fully deconstructed and then go "oh, of course we now need old-fashioned ideas of heroism to save the day and inspre the galaxy because they are a good things".

Either burn down the OT or celebrate it but you can`t do both simulteanously. Attempting it is why the movie failed for me. If I burn something down, it is gone, I can`t just undo it later.

 

This is a good thread.

Despite some on the Internet claiming that there was "no other choice" for Luke's character in Last Jedi (a claim I find more telling of the speaker's lack of imagination than their insight), there were a profound number of other choices. What there weren't, were a number of choices that "preserved" empathy for Kylo Ren, who, I would argue, was clearly Mr. Johnson's favorite character to write. The fact of the matter is that based on where we left Luke at ROTJ, there is simply no justification for seeing what we see in Last Jedi. I'm not saying that a good script (perhaps with flashback exposition) couldn't have gotten there, but that this one didn't. Or as I said in my piece (signature):

"I don’t envy the task that Rian Johnson was given by JJ Abrams. Coming up with a reason that the hero of the galaxy absconded to drink green milk direct from the source while the galaxy burned, his friends were killed, and his sister put in danger is a tough nut to crack for anyone (which is probably why JJ set it up and then skedaddled).

That said, if there is one thing we know about Luke Skywalker, arguably his defining characteristic, it is that he believes in the redemptive power of the good in everyone. Further, he had his entire belief system actually reinforced in his darkest hour. This is not someone who should be swayed by future premonitions of darkness, especially when even in the current timeline we can see how much light is left in Kylo. It’s Kylo’s entire arc that he is trying to snuff that light out.

If there is one thing that should not have been the cause of Luke’s exile it is overreaction to the darkness in someone or not believing in the power of the light.

Compounding this significant mischaracterization are Luke’s actions immediately following his error. In Last Jedi we are told that he flees the scene after causing the birth of Kylo Ren. This singular act of cowardice results in the submission of the galaxy to a new empire, the death of his friend, and who knows what other atrocities. All while Luke possesses the power to stop it (or at least fight the good fight)."

For my money, if you wanted to tell roughly the story that Mr. Johnson does, the correct way to frame Luke's failings would have been for him to "see the good" in Kylo, and to be burned by it. Not only does this line up with the messaging of the rest of the film ("everything that saved the galaxy in the OT gets people killed in real life"), it would also have matched up with what we know of Luke's strengths as a character. Saving Vader was always a bet. It makes sense that he would make that bet again...but be wrong. What doesn't make sense is his going all "Minority Report" on someone who hasn't done anything remotely close to Vader. That's where the issues come from.

 

So much negativity in a single thread... I will avoid it.