ST The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

Absolutely. But JJ has always been (rightly) derided as the "mystery box" guy. He can set hooks like no one in the business, but he can't (or has been uninterested prior to IX) in realizing the end result of those hooks. So it's no surprise that you have a weirdly shallow approach in Force Awakens. It was one I could forgive on the premise that this new trilogy was just getting started and that Rian Johnson could really flesh things out. It was much to my surprise that Last Jedi made things so much "smaller", and did so without any apparent interest in the overall world.

 

You’re asking for things you didn’t get in the OT though. That’s my point.

Obi-wan doesn’t break down the different ways Vader fell to Luke. Some specific anecdotes might have been nice for Luke to say “I want to speak to the man who (and shared some nice prequel aspects there) beyond some vague generalities about him being a Jedi and mentioning his name. We don’t get that. We get very little from Obi-Wan about the role the Jedi council’s treatment could have played or any real regrets for what Obi-wan wished had gone differently. These are strengths of the ST that would have helped the OT too. We get more in the ST in 2 films in this way then we did in 3 in the OT.

Had the OT cared more about establishing some morality in Vader then, rather than needing 20 years and 3 films focused largely on that, instead of the OT’s equivalents Of Canto Bight (Exogorth, Cloud City hotel tour, dance sequences, droid torture chambers, or one of the silliest and most needlessly complex rescue attempts in film history (Han as art work) then the ending could have been even better in the 80s and 90s and not required 3 full films to flesh Vader out more.

 

That remains to be seen. Based on what we know so far, the event between Ben and Luke is what caused him to leave and become Kylo ren.

 

Agreed.

I think its very unclear he is irredeemable before Luke’s mistake since over two films now we continually see the filmmakers hit you over the head with fact that their is still some light in Kylo. While he may look irredeemable at the end of TLJ the fact he still had this much conflict years later makes one wonder was he truly beyond saving if Luke spoke with him rather than igniting a lightsaber over him.

 

Again, to anyone living in denial over Luke... there’s simply no denying the fact that rather than fight Vader in Empire he chose the “cowardly” (to use a term that some have used in describing his actions on Ahch-To) option of attempting to kill himself. He took the ultimate island option in that scenario when faced with a mind-blowing realization that impacted his perception of who he was and his enemy and if it had worked he would have left his friends and the galaxy alone.

He tried to kill himself. This happened. It can’t be waved away like some Jedi mind trick. There’s no setup that he studied the system prior. There’s no close up shot of the ventilation system blowing heavy objects around to safety to setup he was trying to live. There’s no Obi-wan voice over saying “Trust the Force. It will protect you. Don’t become what Vader wants.” There’s none of that and if it wasn’t suicide they would have given us that by design.

He decided he’d rather die than risk becoming like his father because when things get hard for Luke... he struggles. So, he jumped to his death and got incredibly lucky not once but twice and then cried while holding on for the second moment his “cowardice” nearly killed him and kept him out of a fight.

You can dislike that Rian Johnson studied Luke and decided to revisit these significant weaknesses in his character’s design to figure out what would bring him to the island but you can’t pretend Luke doesn’t have this inside himself as a character.

However you justify his suicide jump in Empire? Whatever defence mechanism you’ve built up to cope with that choice? However you see that moment? Use that same defence of Luke as a friend of his to justify his exile. It’s as simple as that.

 

Actually there is since that is merely your interpretation of what Luke did there. One I have seen many people challenge you on.

My view is he did the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. The “cowardly” move would to be to take Vader’s hand and go down the path of evil. Instead he falls to say he would rather die then turn to evil. Which he again does in ROTJ.

 

Why not do what you’re angry he didn’t do on Ahch-To and fight Vader to the end to help protect the galaxy and his friends and the Rebellion?

However you justify this as an admirer of Luke should be how you justify his choice related to Ahch-To.

 

You are putting words in my mouth and creating strawmen.

My issue with Luke was he gave up on a fight that was not lost yet. In ESB, he was beaten. Handless and weaponless. His options were go with Vader (be evil/be excuted) or die on his own terms a good man. A coward would have gone with Vader just so he could live on. That leap took all the courage in the world in my mind.

 

I agree! Plus, if Luke really had decided to become a pacifist and never use his lightsaber again, wouldn’t he have just left the lightsaber where he threw it instead of taking the time to pick it up and take it with him, even when time was of the essence?

Good discussions here, everyone. Thanks for opening this thread, @Lord Skywalker!

 

In universe dialog by Luke. There is also dialog by Han and Leia that suggests otherwise, along with Rey, that chronologically takes place after the event with Luke.

I simply said that it was that event which caused him to leave and take his journey to become Kylo ren. There are scenes in The Force Awakens that are designed to show there is struggle still within Kylo ren. "Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light.".... This takes place AFTER the event with Luke. Snoke reiterates to Kylo that even he has not faced such a test when referring to his father Han Solo. Snoke knows Kylo ren is conflicted here. Even after Kylo kills Han, he is conflicted about doing the same to Leia.

All this takes place after the events with Luke. This is what fans are questioning, in many cases. Not the route they decided to go with Luke's character, but the route they chose in and of itself might not logically make sense for its own thematic arc, from the start of TFA to the end of TLJ.

 

Being maimed and beaten in battle and not allowing yourself to fall into enemy hands when the enemy just declared their grand plans for you and thus deciding to sacrifice your life sooner than let this happen is not in the least bit cowardly. It is heroic.

Being the catalyst for a new bad guy, your own nephew, being able-bodied and have the ability to do something, anything, yet still running away to lick your wounds somewhere is cowardly. It is also not remotely the same situation as the first.

Equating the two makes no sense to me. So people aren`t hypocritically overlooking weaknesses in one case that they are calling out on the other, they are looking at different things in the first place.

I can`t do that because those things are galaxies apart for me. I can`t justifiy him running away and hiding pre-TLJ with anything because there is no justification for it that holds up for me.

Whereas I don`t need to justify the jump in Empire in the first place. He couldn`t physically fight or resist anymore.

So much this.

After Ben he simply gave up when nothing was lost yet and odds were still at least even. I don`t question why Luke didn`t continue fighting anymore in Empire just as I never thought burnt-Anakin should still attempt to jump up and fight Obi-Wan. He was visually beaten.

 

Had he decided to kill Kylo Ren it would have been easy too. Had he just let the Darkness that wanted him to in would have been easy. Had he got up and hunted him down in anger could have lead him to become like Vader without an army behind him realizing it. He did realize it. It took courage to admit he was a risk to the world and couldn’t be the hero the world wanted. He cut himself off from the Force entirely following that Dark Side moment. That’s huge. He loved the Force. He did that for others. He was selfless.

 

Who is saying he had to hunt him anger. After some reflection he could have worked with Leia/Han etc. to figure out a plan to save the day while staying in the Light.

If you view his actions as courageous that is your right. I view it more that he was using that thought as weak justification to do nothing so he could wallow in self-pity.

Even taking his position at face value, he discussed stopping cycles purportedly perpetuated by the Jedi. Why couldn’t have have ended the Jedi and help end the current cycle. They are not mutually exclusive.

To me he took the cowardly route of hiding from his problems rather than acknowledging his mistake and going forward with a plan of how to right it as he did multiple times in the OT.

 

pretty sure Luke knew the Emperor was a force user. Didnt Vader mention a few times about him training under the Emperor?

And Luke attacked him after he revealed that it was a trap. He was ready to die with all of them but once the Emp revealed that he could still win,that's when Luke went into attack. He didnt simply attack for the hell of it, he did it to protect the Rebels.

"already lost" when he saw into the future, when he looks in you hear all these saber sounds and people screaming. None of that was shown as events that already happened, he went to confront him because he showed a bit of darkness during training.

This is basically ESB all over again, Luke fell into a trap setup by a dark side user.

 

To me that’s Anakin pre-fall in crisis AND wreckless Luke trying to commit suicide rather than fighting with every last ounce of fight he had left in him to see how it would play out simply by trying.

And to me... that makes sense. Especially when you factor in Yoda and Obi-Wan’s advice earlier to be willing to stay away if he believes in the larger fight of Dark vs Light. Him turning at any point is too risky. So, he shuts himself off from the Force entirely.

 

And I think he did that for himself because he was too ashamed to face his own actions. It was easier to hide from them and make up excuses for his own behaviour. To me that neither take courage nor was it selfless or in service of others.

I`m not convinced he genuinely feared what would happen to him if he took action so much as that was something he could tell himself to make his own failure more acceptable to him. And while he sat things out, he knew actual bad guys took actual actions. Not just some hypothetical construct of "might be". And actual people had to fight and suffer and clean up that mess.

It`s Han Solo`s mini-arc in ANH. When Luke calls him out on just leaving before the Death Star run because the rebellion was in need of good Pilots. And then he came back and helped save the day because, well, he discovered his own inner hero depite himself.

Thing is, for Luke that process took 6 full years and my patience runneth out after so much time. And my expectations for a satisfying redemptions are much higher than. Was this one instance providing a distraction for twenty people to flee really enough for Luke to feel he did his due? That he could go into the force with his head held high? If so, low standards.

 

And your entitled to that view just as much as I am to mine. In acknowledging that it is clear to me that our divergent views on Luke in the film go well beyond his arc in this film but go back to his arc in the OT.

So how could we possibly view Luke anywhere near the same given our polar opposite views of Luke in all the movies.

 

Exactly. 24 years after first surrendering himself to Vader, appealed to his light side, later tossed away his saber after going all ballistic on Vader, Luke regressed back to his ESB state when he tried to read his sleeping nephew's mind and decided what he saw is what's going to happen. So instead of Luke learning Yoda's lesson from ESB ("Always in motion, the future is"), this Luke just regressed back to ESB Luke. Yes, I know, you will always fight the dark side blah, blah, blah. I saw Luke struggled with it in ROTJ. I didn't need to see him do that again just because the story calls for Kylo to be portrayed in a more sympathetic light.

This is what people want from Luke in the ST? Count me out then.

 

What do you mean ? What had Ben done at that point to be regarded as 'lost' ?

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Omg Luke was not cowardly in ESB. Even as a child I saw Luke letting go and falling as the most amazingly courageous move ever. Damn I love ESB. It hit me deep haha.

Ben was not already lost before he acted on the dark side. To buy that undercuts everything SW has been to this point. Then again, the motto of TLJ is burn it all down...

 

Just take Irvin Kershner's words about the Luke vs Vader fight: "He is facing this evil and he has fear but he blocks attacks and fights him...."