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Discussion TLJ The Island: A "Luke in TLJ" Teeth Gnashers Perspective (see warning on page 9 before posting)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by -LordSkywalker-, Jan 12, 2018.

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  1. powerfulforce

    powerfulforce Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    There's a big difference between when Luke went into exile and when Yoda had. Yoda went into exile due to the fact that he was being hunted down and knew he couldn't succeed against the emperor, his time had passed. Luke's exile looked to be more like one of self-loathing and no desire to confront his mistakes. Yoda's initial refusal to train Luke was because he saw that there was anger and darkness in him, like his father and Yoda didn't want to end up with ANOTHER Skywalker turning to the dark side. Rey is probably going to bring back the Jedi and I feel like this was done to make her look "great". I'm sorry, I just don't agree with the decision. Luke could have brought back the Jedi and then Rey could be his successor. Instead it's more like she's going to "fix" where he went wrong and she's doing it all by herself, no training required.
     
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  2. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    Alright, just because I feel like challenging...where does this premise come from?

    Luke didn't even have an interest in rebuilding the Jedi for at least a decade after ROTJ, in both the new Disney story and Lucas's treatment. Only after Leia wanted Ben trained did Luke agree to start up the Jedi again. And then of course it all went wrong, and Luke was horrified.

    Plus, Luke couldn't be the hero of the ST, just for story writing reasons. The OT was his trilogy.
     
  3. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    yes, Disney's new canon shows such a terrible depressive Luke. The old EU never had such a terrible approach to Luke. I just simply hate this new Luke character created by new fanfiction canon.

    And the mention that it is not Luke's story anymore gets old. Rey is boring and Kylo is a throw away, so whose story is it? No idea. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  4. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    I see what you`re getting at but on TLJ alone, yes, including the ending, it is not enough for me to love or respect the character. Or see him as a hero. After that stunt with Kylo and especially the six years that followed, the final moment was too little and too late to redeem things.

    So, looking at the character solely with the material given in TLJ, it`s not enough to love him. If I throw in the OT bonus of what the character was (and what I extrapolated from that, he could be), then the whole thing just makes me sad. So the OT bonus only gets rid off the contempt but it doesn`t get me to anything positive either. Still, very much counting the final stand. It`s just, that that doesn`t count for all that much in my book. You would have needed the motherload of redemption for that.

    Now looking at just the OT or ancilliary materials of my choosing, I wholeheartedly love the character.

    So, basically, it`s stages.
     
  5. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    My question is, who's a threat to Rey now? I mean her entire arc seems to be needing to realize how awesome she is and embrace it. And she can do things now (when she didn't even know that The Force was real only like a week ago at most) that her predecessors couldn't do after years of training and study. And she can pull new Force Powers out of nowhere whenever the plot requires.

    So who is left to challenge her? The one person who actually felt like a threat to her (Snoke) is dead. Kylo, he hasn't been able to beat her through two movies. Hux, well if he was competent Hux from TFA then maybe. But TLJ turned him into such a joke that, nah. Phasma, hahahahahah. So who's left to stand in the way of Rey's awesome power of eternal awesomeness, and where's the tension going forward?
     
  6. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    ^^yep, that's the next big problem after Luke's treatment, you don't fear for Rey in any way in IX, so why bother watching it? [face_dunno]
     
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  7. TK327

    TK327 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 7, 2001
    I come in peace.

    In an issue of SW Insider, there is mention of another apprentice of Snoke. I’m willing to bet that another big bad will be introduced in IX. And of course, there are the KoR. Rey and Ren had their hands full in defeating the Praetorians. On her own, the KoR, who are almost certainly Force sensitive former students of Luke, would be a formidable threat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  8. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Can you post your source? The only thing I’ve seen relating to other apprentices is Ben being mentioned as the most talented of Snoke’s apprentices, but nothing hinting at a shadowy yet to be seen villain
     
  9. TK327

    TK327 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 7, 2001
    Here it is. I was mistaken on the source. The info came from a different magazine—A Souvenir Guide to The Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. The mention of training at least one more apprentice is in the first sentence of the article. Not obviously hinting at a new villain, I suppose. But why mention it at all, if it’s of no consequence?

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/so-apparently-snoke-may-have-trained-at-least-one-oth-1821509978
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  10. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I don't believe it... :p
     
  11. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    another bad guy with no backstory? Like the big bad Snoke, who was done in the last one? I hope not. This is not James Bond. [face_sigh]
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  12. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    Well I just disagree; I still love him, and I explained the logic of why it's still possible to.
     
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    As an story concept, I kind of like this. Instead of getting the repetitive ROTJ redemption story, it would make a lot of sense if Kylo and Rey both realize they can work together to defeat a greater evil. The P-Guard fight was a tease to this. They both feel threatened by whatever this is, and join up once again. Maybe this time realizing the the dark side and the light doesn't have to destroy each other. But maybe still not quite redemption in the end. Something different.
     
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  14. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    I`d be much more interested in a battle in the spirit realm. At this point I really don`t care who Rey defeats with ease in episode 9, be it Kylo, the KOR or random new darksiders. There is only one character trope that is worse than the coward they made of Luke. And that is what they made of Rey.

    At least Luke has the entire OT (and Legends) to fall back on. Rey only has kinda TFA for me and that`s not remotely enough to keep fond feelings for the character.

    And I do understand why that works for you. I even see why the final stand on Crait brings a positive outlook on things. It`s just not one big enough for me. To me, everything hinges on a character being properly redeemed in my eyes.

    RJ likely thought that final stand was a big moment that redeemed the character of Luke again. As TLJ shows he obviously has a very different outlook on morality, heroism and redemption than I do.

    If that was an original character and not Luke Skywalker from the OT, I would on one hand not remotely be invested enough to really care but on the other hand I would not remotely like or respect that character and not feel one iota that he died a hero for getting off his butt for five minutes already after abandoning the fight for years on end. It takes a lot more for me to call someone a hero.

    At least Obi Wan in the OT, while in exile, was good to go when a call for help came. That made the character come across miles better than Luke in TLJ. In context with the PT now, it was still cowardly for him and Yoda to go into exile in the first place. But at least Obi Wan had a somewhat practical reason of guarding something. I would sell my soul for Luke having guarded something worthwhile on the island.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  15. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I bet it's Glorum, Brother of Snoke, and his Sith Army of Flahms.
     
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  16. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    @TK327 I do appreciate your approach to come up with an idea for IX to make it more compelling, but I just see too many problems to introduce new villains in IX. TLJ already was lacking character development because of too many characters.[face_dunno]
     
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  17. Jamarn Santill

    Jamarn Santill Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Quick thought - could the legend/image/Legends achievements of Luke that you guys use to support him being "out of character" actually make his portrayal in TLJ even more like him? [Legends examples below, but general gist is of value]

    Hear me out: he redeems Vader, is a superbadass who can down Star Destroyers in Legends, etc etc, does all this stuff, defeats garrisons of stormtroopers doing flips in a Jedi Outcast I played recently (legends again), does his own academy, thinks he improved upon PT Jedi, etc etc... he let go of fears, impatience, etc.

    And then all this is still not enough - evil rears its head yet again, sees Kylo corrupted. I'd go nuts. His farm boy Luke whine/impatient young Jedi self came out. Like his father, suffers the consequences of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like himself in ESB when he took weapons into the cave, and like going to Bespin against Yoda's advice, he just reacts (saying "on instinct" implies that's his inherent instinct, I don't believe that is the case). A nascent Vader-heir is among his painstakingly built school. And he considers killing him, like the defenseless Vader, and similarly, does not. And when it all falls apart, after all this, so does he.

    He, the improved Jedi Master, like the flawed PT Jedi, ends up with the same result.

    But hey, he comes back, as himself, tbh doubling down on his ROTJ non violent action.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  18. TK327

    TK327 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 7, 2001
    I think that’s a legitimate concern. To bring in a new major character and give him a reasonable amount of development in a single film would be a challenge. And I agree that there are an aweful lot of characters to juggle as it is. I’m just curious as to why the article bothered to mention other apprentices if there was no plan follow through. But, hey, maybe it was a throwaway line in the article.

    But I do think that the KoR could work, if they are indeed Luke’s lost apprentices—we could easily get up to speed on their back story, if this were the case. They would be a formidable foe, and if they have a link to Luke, that could make for some interesting interactions with Rey. There would be potential for more duels which are character and story driven, not just plain old action.

    I know you don’t have an interest in seeing it, but think we will see Rey realizing her mistake in rushing off to confront Ren and reconciling with Luke. I think it could be a powerful moment.

    ETA @Thrawn082 see my post above yours. I agree about the potential pitfalls of adding a new big bad at this point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    That's sounds like a mistake structurally honestly. Trying to introduce another big bad, that we've never seen or heard of before, in the final film (when so much else needs wrapped up), that makes little sense imo. You could have kept the actual big bad who felt like a threat and was mysterious around, but Rian needed to try and "cute and clever" instead. So trying to crowbar another previously-unknown villain in this late in the game sounds, not great, to be honest.
     
  20. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Nope, his portrayal in Legends is the antithesis of TLJ. The two can`t go together.

    Which is not to say Luke was never tested in Legends. And obviously, video games are quite different than novels. In the games it is all about the power levels whereas the novels were one big whump after another. Failed students? Not a new thing. Even a fallen nephew. While I didn`t jump with joy because I liked the Jacen character, the writing for why he fell and how his family reacted to it was to me organic and in character for everyone.

    Luke in exile? Done in Legends. For a much better reason. And with a much better purpose.

    The coward and the guy whose first instinct is "saber out" when confronted with a student struggling with the darkside, THAT doesn`t exist in Legends. And it wouldn`t have a place there. It can not organically fit there. For good reason IMO.
     
  21. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    The thing is, Luke in Legends suffered setbacks (as did Han and Leia). But it never felt like they lost EVERYTHING. There was still a legacy standing, despite all of the turmoil. The ST, by contrast, basically did the equivalent of carpet-bombing their accomplishment from orbit. Also as stated above, Luke had better/more believable reasons for going into seclusion/exile at times in Legends.

    And the payoffs weren't so small as "well it's ok that Han died, because him trying to redeem his son is good enough, even if he failed. Oh Luke died, but it's ok. He saved 15-20 people on one ship and punked up his nephew briefly, that totally justifies destroying his entire life's work offscreen."

    To boil it down, The Big Three felt like they accomplished things in Legends, not so here.
     
  22. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Maybe it's a bad girl? IIRC recently Lucasfilm announced they might bring other 'Legends' characters to life. Who could that seriously be other than Mara Jade?

    We probably need a replacement for the female antagonist Captain Phasma, and there'd be a woman you could blame why Luke decided to become a hermit (because of Jade Luke became a Jake...). [face_thinking]
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    As I've said the only thing that can retcon this is that just about EVERYTHING going on has been a massive fake-out by Snoke. Snoke got into Luke and Ben's minds and warped their motivations and memories into what he could use but only so much without them knowing it. Then he played games to get to his actual final goal which will be revealed in IX.

    He's been puppet mastering on a level that even Sidious couldn't do which is why Rey was created by the Force and is such a precision instrument.
     
  24. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Also Obi Wan and Yoda were running from a Galactic Empire that had an iron grip on the Galaxy and that was ruled over by a Sith Lord who had already exterminated most of the Jedi in one fell swoop and were hunting down the few that were left.

    Luke, seems to have gone into exile BEFORE the FO truly started rising to power and stayed there because, he felt bad that things didn't got his way once.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  25. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    There was a good point made somewhere but I thought it was important. That up until now, the dark side was the quick and easy path way to power. The light side took commitment, dedication, patience, and years of training. We see that Luke took years just to be a somewhat good enough Jedi. Just enough to know how to resist the dark side. It seems to even take him decades to finally learn his last lesson. But what else do we see in the ST? We see a villain, who continually needs to train himself. Kylo has had years of practice, by multiple teachers, years devoted to this. The dark side isn't some quick and easy answer for him. Sure he wants more power...but it doesn't seem to be a quick one, especially not as quick as he envisions. If anything it's lack of speed and power are frustrating him. It's not a quick solution to a problem, like it was for Anakin. It doesn't seem to be something he slipped and fell into rapidly, or by some horrible decision, as he's thought about the dark side for years. This is matched with Rey, who is essentially his equal in days. She doesn't seem really committed to being a Jedi, other than, hey it's something new to do this week. She isn't trained by anyone really, trains herself mostly, and never comes across any true struggle or hardship. Her powers come rapidly and easily, and in almost frighteningly incredibly large ways. The most you could say is that she needs to overcome her one weakness, which is relying on other people to care for her, or do the right thing. But I don't even know how that's a real struggle, power wise.

    This is a total reversal of everything the Force was bout in the saga. I'm not sure it's done intentionally, or accidentally, or if there's a deeper message here.

    This is sort of why I think Kylo is the protagonist. He's the one struggling to learn, struggling to defeat his weaknesses, his temptation (in this case to the light), and beat his enemies, one by one. First he killed his weak father. Then he went up against, Rey, and lost. Then he beat Snoke. Then he went up against, Luke...and kind of won...but not really. The only person left for him to truly defeat is Rey. She's all that standing in his way. In a sense, story-wise, Rey is the Darth Vader... a powerful, daunting figure, who motivates, tests, and blocks the protagonist from fulfilling something. An ultimate enemy for the protagonist. Someone he literally can't beat until the very end. Someone who just always seems more powerful than anything.
     
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