Beyond - Legends The Jade Prophecy - L/M, H/L Thank you to the readers!!!

Luke paused, and wiped the sweat off his brow. The air was stiflingly hot and thick with humidity, and Luke felt he was having some difficulty breathing. His clothes were soaked with sweat and clung uncomfortably to his back and legs.

Well, of course this is a dream. He's not on Yavin; he's in the U.S. Midwest in August.

Good Luke post, tho a tad short.

 

Luke needs to find another source of funding for his school. Still I like seeing him in action. Hopefully he'll get a clue about his dreams/visions.

 

*bounces happily* More Luke!

Great post, Jieh. The dream is wonderful, and I still love that forin/astromech mix.

We don't disagree that often, Jieh, but I really do have to disagree that Leia's mistreatment in the profic began with Zahn. I think that Zahn portrayed her as we always saw Leia in the movies: smart, tough, and eminently capable, as Benjor45 pointed out with that TLC excerpt (welcome to the boards, btw! ).

Toronto, you mention that Leia hadn't progressed with her Jedi studies in TTT. That's really not true. She'd progressed tremendously from the outright denial we saw in RotJ. What I think you fail to take into account are the real life difficulties Zahn was working around. The Thrawn Trilogy came out some time after RotJ, and as I recall, there was precious little in the way of pro-SW entertainment in those years. The characters were well known, certainly, but not omnipresent as they seem to be today. Zahn had to progress beyond what we saw in the movies, but do so in a way that kept the readers reading. If he'd changed any of the characters too drastically (making Leia a full-fledged lightsaber-wielding Jedi, for example), he'd have risked losing the audience from the very first page, and we'd have missed out on a lot of interesting character development. Instead, he started out slowly and eased us into the new storyline. Leia is studying to be a Jedi, but she isn't able to devote the time to it that Luke has because she's been rather busy establishing a new galactic government. That's not exactly a weekend project, and she was vastly more involved in the process than was Luke.

Also, recall the way both Luke and Leia grew up. Luke grew up in a bleak environment with apparently nothing more than mundane tasks in his future, and spent a lot of time dreaming of larger than life adventures and the father he never knew. His Jedi studies are what he's always dreamed of: something adventurous and important and larger than himself.

Leia grew up with a father she knew and loved. She was raised in the capital of a world known throughout the galaxy for its cultural accomplishments, and she was brought up to be a politician and a leader. Remember that she was the youngest to serve in the Imperial Senate, for example. For Leia, Jedi studies are more of a distraction from what she's always done and believed to be most important.

This is important both because Leia was trained to do exactly what she did in TTT - be a diplomat and politician, and an extremely talented one. Also, Luke desperately wanted to know his father, and being a Jedi is a way for him to connect with Anakin as he'd always dreamed Anakin to be. For Leia, acknowledging her strength in the Force is psychologically tantamount to turning her back on the father she loved to ally herself with Vader. Leia had many more obstacles to overcome just to get into the right mindset for Jedi training; and I think she did very well indeed, all things considered.

Certainly Zahn had an interest in writing his own original character, but I was very impressed with the way he portrayed Leia throughout. She's the Leia we've always known. She does what she believes is right, and doesn't back down. She did some hiding, but wouldn't any mother swallow her pride and do the same if she thought her children's lives depended on it? And didn't she face Khabarakh on Kashyyyk, despite the risk? And go to Honoghr? And Wayland? Leia ran from nothing, except when she believed it best for the sake of her children, not herself. As far as the argument of it being the babies that Thrawn and C'baoth wanted instead of Leia, who would you take if you were them? Leia, a fully grown adult whose strength of will is legendary (can you really tell me that Thrawn didn't know of her defiance on the Death Star?), or two infants who can be molded, the way Mara herself was molded by Palpatine? They'd have happily used Leia to their purposes if they could get her to go along, but the babies (and even Luke, with his overly trusting attitude) were much eas

 

Ack! I'm so late! But I'm here!! That's what counts, right?? Anyway, haven't had time to finish all posts - will comment later. Must...sleep...now....

 

Good post.

Shame the water and Mara's hair were blocking stuff out. I guess Luke also has to contend with the fact that his New Order is taking in initiates and padawans who aren't mere infants and already have some set emotions in place.

As well, the NJO doesn't have the rules of celibacy that the Old Order had. He has to cope with any ups and downs this facilitates. Not to mention, he has his own feelings to consider. Luke still has human needs and desires. In the last three years, has he had any type of distractions from the Academy? Has he even had the occasional date? No wonder he's starting to dream of Mara every night, with the dreams getting more erotic everytime.

I think that Luke's dreams are both telling him that his future is alligned with Mara's and that there is danger ahead with her.

Well, I'm not upset over the raising of Mara's profile in the NJO and other profic series. IMO, she's the best female character in the whole Star Wars Universe.

However, I do feel that Zahn began what some feel is s short-shifting of Leia. Yes, she was always brought up to be in politics and government and it's what she dreamed of -unlike Luke who always wanted adventure and being part of some great crusade. However, Zahn had to realize that most fans of Star Wars don't read the material to see political wrangling, or the administrative headaches with setting up a new government. They want to see space fights. They want Jedi intrigue with lightsabers and delving into the Force.

By marginalizing Leia as a Jedi, and instead making her the political heir to Mon Mothma, Zahn pretty much shunted Leia off to the sidelines away from where all the "action" is. Although Leia might have logical reasons for hesitation to accept her Jedi heritage, by not doing so, she always seems to be excluded from the mainstream action. Instead, we have Mara being Luke's most trusted fellow Jedi and the one we see taking over the part of the female action character. In some of the other profic books I read (such as Kevin J. Anderson's) Leia always seemed stuck on Coruscant helping the Big Talking Head (i.e. Mon Mothma) rather than taking part in the big action pieces.

That's also why the Solo kids worship Mara as their role model. They all take the Jedi path. None of them go into politics. Thus, they relate more to Mara.

Interesting about how Luke has to do all these little peacekeeping tasks for the Senate to ensure funding fot the Academy. I think that the mission where he arrested the spice dealer had more to i than is visually apparent. I think he's scratched onto something run by Tauro -who I think is also helping run the Empire now.

Reading about Sentate funding for Luke's Academy made me think of potential Senate hostility to the idea of the Academy and the parallels to West Point during the U.S. Civil War.

During the Civil War, there was an attempt in the U.S. Senate to abolish funding for West Point. It was thought to be an untrustworthy institution because so many of its graduates from the South had resigned from the U.S. Army to fight for the Confederacy (Robert E. Lee, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart, etc) or had actually taken part in the forming of the Confederate government (i.e. Jefferson Davis himself). Perhaps Luke has to deal with some of these same types of attitudes. The Senate thinks that one Jedi turned to the Dark Side, and helped bring down the Old Republic, then why should the New Republic fund a Jedi Academy and risk the same thing happening again?

Luke has to show that the Jedi can prove their worth to the Republic in times of crisis and war. Perhaps there will be some battle with insurgent Empire forces where Luke's Jedi can prove themselves as being great warrior and strong leaders. (The way the Mexican War served to first prove the mettle of West Point's graduates).

BTW, how long is the program at Luke's Academy? Does it depend on the abilities and effort of each padawan? Or is there a set curriculum and schedule? What criteria does Lu

 

Nice post LP! Your Luke dream sequences are wonderfully haunting. But this time Luke felt the need to protect Mara from some danger?! I guess Tauro is as dangerous as we suspect...

Great discussion going on about Leia in the EU. I guess I'll put in my two cents about Zahn and others.

I will first and foremost admit that far and away, Zahn's books were the ones I enjoyed the most in the EU, partially because they were the first move in the revival of SW from the post-ROTJ hibernation, but also because of the wonderful writing job. (His non-SW work is also highly recommended, most notably the COBRA books.) His characterization, for the most part, both of original and canon characters, is incredible, and his dialogue felt like it came straight out of the films (and quite a bit of it did! , but that's what we wanted anyway, didn't we?). His plots were well thought out, with enough surprises to satisfy anyone.

When it came to projecting the heroes' characters into the future, I think Zahn tried to keep to the spirit of the films as much as possible. He pretty much assumed their development was completed in the movie, thus avoiding extra work which would could only get him in trouble. Luke, for the most part, behaves as he did in ROTJ - calm, at peace with himself and the Force, with a touch of young exuberance and emotions at times. Han, too, picks up from where he was at the end of the film - becoming a respectable and responsible leader, with enough wiles and guts left from his earlier career.

Leia was, to a certain extent, unresolved in the films themselves, since Luke left her with new information that she never finished processing on screen: she's Vader's daughter, she can use the Force (though we watched her do it at least once before), and might have a new responsibility to be Jedi. She absorbs the information, but then continues on her original Alliance mission as before, no Force or anything. After the battle we see again that she can use the Force, but it still doesn't seem like a deliberate thing, even if we can assume she now understands what's going on ("I can feel it"). She is not with Luke at Vader's pyre, nor is she looking at the blue contingent at the celebration - she's arm-in-arm with Han and Lando, serving as a bridge to draw Luke back in to the circle from his unique vantage point.

Zahn took that and expanded it - Leia stayed mainstream Alliance, acknowledging her Force ability while not pursuing it diligently, preferring to be the bridge between Jedi and Republic (personified by Mon Mothma and Luke). In this field her character is pretty well developed from the start of the OT, and Zahn portrayed her maturity and ability very well.

As far as her Force-inheritance goes, Zahn continued the films' trend, with Leia slowly accepting more and more of her Jedi birthright. She must not only acknowledge Vader as her father - it's critical to their success. In this way, Leia actually develops more than either Han or Luke during TTT. On the other hand, Leia uses her development to further the central parts of her identity - mainly, as a diplomat and statesman, just as in the films her main concern is political and military, not mystical/spiritual. In some ways, Zahn simply assumed that reality would cause Leia to stay in the niche she chose at the end of ROTJ, despite the growth of the Jedi aspect of her character.

I think I agree with Gabri that Zahn did not single-handedly effect the "boring" personality of Leia as it appears in the EU. Rather, less accomplished (oh, how much less!) authors took the trend Zahn developed, which in itself reflected the films, and deepened it to a complete disconnection with the Jedi. Many EU books show Leia with less Jedi attributes than Zahn himself developed in TTT. A notable exception is Leia's development in Barbra Hambly's books, where Leia grows even more towards being a full Jedi (with the aid of the controversial Callista).

However, I agree with TJM about the general feeling that Zahn concentrated harder on developing his original

 

Shame the water and Mara's hair were blocking stuff out.

Toronto, seriously. Mind out of the gutter.

As well, the NJO doesn't have the rules of celibacy that the Old Order had. He has to cope with any ups and downs this facilitates. Not to mention, he has his own feelings to consider. Luke still has human needs and desires.

I'm pretty sure the Jedi of the Old Republic still had human (or whatever species they were) needs and desires too, celibacy or not. They managed just fine.

However, I do feel that Zahn began what some feel is s short-shifting of Leia. Yes, she was always brought up to be in politics and government and it's what she dreamed of -unlike Luke who always wanted adventure and being part of some great crusade. However, Zahn had to realize that most fans of Star Wars don't read the material to see political wrangling, or the administrative headaches with setting up a new government. They want to see space fights. They want Jedi intrigue with lightsabers and delving into the Force.

*raises eyebrow* Most SW fans, you say? I personally enjoy the intellectual side of SW every bit as much - if not more - than the stereotypical 'action' scenes and, heaven help us, more Jedi philosophy. I've been fairly unimpressed with Jedi philosophy 'delving into the Force' thus far. I'd vastly rather read some good character and story development than another space battle, and for myself, anyway, I don't think Zahn skimped on either aspect. I thought that all five of his SW books were very well rounded in that way.

I don't think Leia was shortchanged simply by following her upbringing and having a political career - which is as much her heritage as the Force. Her mother was an elected queen and senator, and her adoptive father a viceroy and senator. I don't think Padmé suffers all that much in comparison to Anakin, who does charge into situations with lightsaber blazing.

By marginalizing Leia as a Jedi, and instead making her the political heir to Mon Mothma, Zahn pretty much shunted Leia off to the sidelines away from where all the "action" is.

I disagree - at least in Zahn's books. In his, not only does Leia handle the political aspects rather deftly, but she tends to be in the thick of things fairly often. Kashyyyk, remember? Nkllon. Honoghr. Wayland. If Leia hadn't met Khabarakh, gone to Honoghr, exposed the Empire's treason, followed the others to Wayland, Thrawn could easily have won. Leia's input was crucial. And her input in diplomatic matters is every bit as crucial most of the time.

Mind you, I'm not arguing in favor of Leia rejecting her Jedi training. I think she should have gone ahead with it. But I do not think that Zahn ignored either her or her potential. I consider that to be the fault of either the authors who followed him, or the editors who may have decreed such a move. Out of all the profic I have read, Zahn seems to have the greatest respect for Leia; and he portrays her as more of a Jedi than any of the other authors do.


Although Leia might have logical reasons for hesitation to accept her Jedi heritage, by not doing so, she always seems to be excluded from the mainstream action. Instead, we have Mara being Luke's most trusted fellow Jedi and the one we see taking over the part of the female action character. In some of the other profic books I read (such as Kevin J. Anderson's) Leia always seemed stuck on Coruscant helping the Big Talking Head (i.e. Mon Mothma) rather than taking part in the big action pieces.

Whether the end effect is Leia's exclusion from 'mainstream action' or not, to have her walk completely away from diplomacy and politics could easily have mangled her characterization as much as her rejecting her Jedi heritage has done. Diplomacy and politics are a large part of who Leia is.

I'll admit right now that I haven't read all that much SW profic aside from Zahn and the NJO - maybe a dozen books. I don't claim any expertise in that area. However, what I did see was not Mara bec

 

*raises eyebrow* Most SW fans, you say? I personally enjoy the intellectual side of SW every bit as much - if not more - than the stereotypical 'action' scenes and, heaven help us, more Jedi philosophy I agree with Gabri_Jade on this. I like it when the books actually have conversations, not just one fight scene after another. And one of the reasons Han is my favorite character is because he is not a Jedi! (ONE of the reasons...*snickers*)

 

Guess I'll throw in my two credits' worth, such as it is.

I think Leia has had more behind-the-scenes Jedi training which readers were not privy to. Just because she's not physically leading a space battle or cutting down enemies with her lightsaber doesn't mean she doesn't know how.

I agree with Zahn's portrayl of Leia in his first trilogy. She used her Jedi talents more in the political arena. This is no different than Cilghal specializing in healing, or Tionne specializing in historical research.

Zahn was given the difficult assignment of setting up the characters for the new Expanded Universe. What the other authors did after him was out of his hands. And from what I remember, he had Leia referring to herself as a Jedi Knight in his later Hand of Thrawn books. She even took charge in a riot that she and Han got caught up in -- swinging her lightsaber, jumping over the crowd's heads, springing up to new heights (both figuratively and literally). The only other times I recall her using a lightsaber were the beginning of the Corellian Trilogy, where she bests Luke in a duel, and the aforementioned Planet of Twilight, where Callista tutors her in lightsaber combat and she defeats a Hutt.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Leia uses her talents in the best way to serve the galaxy. Even Mon Mothma lectures Luke on that he should be more like his sister -- embracing the political aspect of being a leader instead of avoiding it. Leia shows more courage facing down political adversaries than any of the other SW characters, and she should be commended for it, not criticized.

 

Wars might not make one great, however to the politicians who control the budgeting for Luke's Academy, they don't have the type of depth to appreciate that fact. They want bang for their buck. If the current crisis allowed Luke's Jedi students to prove their fighting ability and worth to the Republic, it would make getting funding a lot easier.

True that kids generally NEVER think their parents are cool. I can imagine the Solo kids shuddering when thinking of the idea of Han and Leia being "cool". (They think Leia's always doing interviews on GNN's -Galactic New Network- political talk shows that put their friends to sleep. As for Han, they have a hard time thinking a man is cool when he hasn't changed his wardrobe or his haircut in over thirty years. ).

Heh-heh, I wonder if the Solo kids have any ideas on Han's musical tastes and how that affects his "coolness". They probably cringe when flying with him on the Falcon. He plays stuff on the 8-Track player he installed in the cockpit and insists on singing along to what he calls "classic oldies". Anakin complains: "DAD! The last time this music was 'in' was when Grandpa was a padawan!". Han's rebuttal: "Son, it's a proven fact that music acheived perfection thirty some years ago. I can't even make out the lyrics you kids listen to today. And what's the deal with those teenage girls who insist on wearing outfits Jabba would even find tasteless?" etc...

 

*Head spins at current discussion*

First off, great post, LP! I liked the Lukieness. The description of the jungle where Luke was in his dream was very well done; I could literally see it as if I were there. His dream's really got me wondering... But I'm sure there's some underlying symbolism somewhere in there, hehe . Oh, I must say, I laughed at Bri's response about the dream: "pervy, in true HM fashion!" *Giggles*

As for the current "debate," I feel, as a huge Leia fan, that I should give some input. Hopefully I won't be repeating what anyone else has said...

TJM:

However, Zahn had to realize that most fans of Star Wars don't read the material to see political wrangling, or the administrative headaches with setting up a new government. They want to see space fights. They want Jedi intrigue with lightsabers and delving into the Force.

With this statement, I'm just jumping on Gabri and GreatOne's bandwagon. When I watch the Star Wars OT, do you know what parts I fast-forward through? It may seem like heresy, but I've maybe only watched the full-out battles of Yavin, Hoth, and Endor three times each, and I've never been interested into "delving into the Force" or what have you. And in the books, I remember skimming through half the battle at the end of Dark Force Rising. I'd much rather read an intelligent conversation between Leia and someone else rather than be bored to death with "The X-Wing soared through space..."

The EU has to focus on the so-called "political wrangling, or the administrative headaches with setting up a new government." That's a big difference between the plot of the movies and the plot of (some of) the books: in the OT, the government is the Empire, and the Rebellion is trying to destroy it. In the books, the Rebellion has succeeded, so now there IS no government. And the galaxy obviously could not survive without any type of control, so someone's got to do something, and the readers have to know what's going on. Can you imagine reading along, and suddenly, without any information, the New Republic has gone from Chapter Two's description of "struggling" to Chapter Fifteen's description of "fully established?" It just wouldn't work. Besides, when we see the "behind the scenes" stuff of the political part of SW, we get a lot more Leia. And Leia, in my not-so-humble opinion, is the coolest SW character--even above dearest Han.

Gabri:

...but not just anyone can do Leia's job. I suspect that's a big part of why Leia didn't go on with her Jedi training, actually. The powers that control the profic realized that not only was Leia terrific at what she did, but if she were to leave politics and become a Jedi, the audience's view of the SW galaxy could quickly become lopsided. Politics have played a large part in the SW saga since ANH was first released, and in the books, Leia is more often than not the reader's insider view of the political aspect.

*Claps* THANK YOU. To me, Leia has always been a politician--she was raised that way, and it's what she knows.

Also, Leia is a selfless character. The one thing coming closest to selfish that she did in the OT was rescue Han in ROTJ, and really, how is that selfish? Anyway, the point is... Leia the politician feels as though she has a duty to the people. She knows that she's a good leader and diplomat. She knows that she can help the galaxy--in her own way. So what if Luke would rather go be a Jedi and fight in lightsaber battles? He and Leia are not the same person! Now, I know the original discussion wasn't necessarily a Luke vs. Leia debate, but it has such undertones, at least to me. But honestly, it's more or less futile to sit and compare Luke to Leia (or Leia to Mara, for that matter), just because they're twins with the Force. Leia's going to do what she wants, and obviously, that's to be a politician and help the galaxy in the best way she knows how. Meanwhile, Luke's

 

I am vindicated (sort of).

Since this is a 'Jade Prophecy' thread, not a 'Is Leia a Jedi?' or 'How old is Mara?' thread, I will try to be brief.

Here was the 'Discuss Balance Point' thread where Kathy Tyers (Shmi52) says that the LFL/DelRey info she was given states that Mara is two years older than Luke:

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1224749&page=1

The age discussion begins on the bottom of page 8 if your settings are at 50 posts/page. Otherwise, it would be around 17, I guess. (around Nov. 5, 2000). Though I will have to still claim the senility title, as I was one of the readers who debated the question back then! This so-called 'NJO Bible' is supposed to be on a CD included with the last NJO book, so maybe we'll see a definitive answer then.

If you read the entire thread from the beginning, they also discuss Leia's progress as a Jedi (or lack of progress). Someone quotes a line where Luke says Leia is a Jedi 'in her own way.'

Now back to our regularly scheduled adulation of LadyPadme's great fic.

 

Whew what a discussion..

Just poppin my head in to say hello..

Priya

 

Phew, the discussion is twice as long as the fic already!

Lukie's having pervy dreams...LP, we've corrupted you!

 

I don't think I remember Luke or Wedge or Lando's hair styles changing any on the book covers over the course of the years. And if you want to talk about clothes, (!!!???) what could be more boring than a BROWN JEDI ROBE! Unless, TJM thinks brown robes are the height of fashion....

PS... What the heck is wrong with OLDIES?

 

*grins* LP, you really are special. I can't remember any other stories I read attracting discussions like this the way yours always seem to.

GreatOne: I like it when the books actually have conversations, not just one fight scene after another.

I couldn't agree more. The battle scenes in the movies are fun to watch, but I get awfully bored trying to read and visualize particular moves in a space battle or lightsaber duel. I really enjoy reading the characters talking to each other as friends and family would do in real life.

Jedi-2B: Thanks for the info, Michele! I really didn't know that there had been another possibility for Mara's age until you spoke up. I do prefer the slightly younger estimate, but it'll be very interesting to see that 'NJO Bible'.

I think Leia has had more behind-the-scenes Jedi training which readers were not privy to. Just because she's not physically leading a space battle or cutting down enemies with her lightsaber doesn't mean she doesn't know how.

*hugs* Thank you! That's one of my biggest pet peeves, when readers flip because so-and-so didn't do this or learn that just because we didn't read it in the books. Unless the books flat out say that a character didn't do something, how do we know? Sometimes you have to look at the context of the book (or books) to figure out the unspoken details.

I agree with Zahn's portrayl of Leia in his first trilogy. She used her Jedi talents more in the political arena. This is no different than Cilghal specializing in healing, or Tionne specializing in historical research.

I wholeheartedly agree. Not all Jedi use their Force abilities in the same way, and not all have the same talents.

Puggy: I just easily jump to Leia's defense, because I think she's (1) a great character (2) one who many don't understand, or even care to understand (3) been mistreated often in the EU.

*grins* Darling, that's exactly why I jump to Mara's defense as quickly as I do. I couldn't have put it better. You do a wonderful job of defending Leia, too.

it's more or less futile to sit and compare Luke to Leia (or Leia to Mara, for that matter), just because they're twins with the Force.

I completely agree. Each character is his or her own person, and if they're going to be judged and analyzed, I do think they should at least be judged and analyzed for who they are, not who they aren't.

 

Darling, that's exactly why I jump to Mara's defense as quickly as I do. I couldn't have put it better. You do a wonderful job of defending Leia, too.

*Giggles* Thanks! Oh, and you're an excellent defender of Mara, Gabri, but I'm sure you knew that already.

Isn't it weird how Mara and Leia--two seemingly very different characters--are so alike in the sense that they're so very complex and difficult to understand? A lot of people try to make them out to be complete opposites, but it's obvious that certain parallels can be drawn between the two. Both are strong-willed, intelligent, and sharp-witted, and can often be misunderstood. Also, Mara was once a bit of an "Ice Princess" herself, no? It took her awhile to warm up to Luke and the idea of being a Jedi, while it took Leia three years to warm up to Han (while most women would have warmed up to him and leapt into his arms within three seconds).

 

Take cover, LP! This thread has become a war zone! *ducks*



It's amazing how I struggle to come up with 1000 words for a summer reading essay, but I could easily crank out 2000+ on a SW topic such as Leia in the EU. Knowing that I really should be working on my fanfic and not writing said essays, I shall try to be brief. (Like that's going to happen.)

LP, that dream was great, very well executed. The symbolism was dead on. Have I ever mentioned I love reading about dreams and visions? (Probably because I love writing them )

Everyone else caught up in the debate - I think the thing that really gets to a lot of people is that 5 years had passed between ROTJ and Zahn's trilogy. When I first read the books, I was really thrilled that Leia was doing some of the things she'd done. (Using the Force to manipulate objects, keeping her senses attuned to her surroundings, fighting the Noghri off by herself, using a lightsaber, etc.) But then sometimes I would remember that it had taken 5 years to get to that point. I really think the max should have been 1 - 1 1/2 years. Honestly, shortly after Endor, I would think that Luke and Leia, having only just found out they were twins, would spend some time just discussing things. Maybe talking about what their mother would have been like, and how strange it was that they were brother and sister all along...I should think they might wonder about the past and what had gone wrong. Things of that nature. And naturally, Luke would urge Leia to train to be a Jedi.

Now I think that Leia would only partially resist because after all, it's in her blood. Granted politics is in her blood too, but I always saw Luke and Leia as equals in the Force. With that much power she would need training, and Leia is intelligent and understanding enough to realize this. Still, I know she would have her duties to the New Republic and all, but it's not like she's the only brilliant politician, and it's not like Mon Mothma is an old crone at this point. (And I don't believe she's the imperious, power-hungry woman that much of fanfic makes her out to be. I mean come on, she had like 30 seconds of screen time. Let's wait for Episode 3 to see what she's really like. ) My point is, Mon Mothma was quite capable on her own. In ANH, Leia had only in the last couple of years begun running on secret missions for Bail, mostly so as to keep the suspicion off of him, and even after that she never seemed to be the actual leader of the Alliance. (Which is true, she wasn't the actual leader.) Yes, she was an important figure, but she was not the most important. Politics should not have been an excuse to delay at least some Jedi training for 5 years.

I believe Leia would have accepted the training, especially if Luke was urging her to. I mean, geez, it's her twin brother! What better way to spend some quality time together than working on strengthening the mental bond between them and honing Leia's skills? When Luke left Dagobah to go to Cloud City and Obi-Wan said "that boy is our last hope," we all know what Yoda said. "No. There is another." Clearly Yoda believed that Leia had a chance at saving the galaxy and destroying the Emperor and Vader if Luke failed. Yoda had been "watching" Luke for over twenty years, so he must also have been "watching" Leia. He knew what each of them were like, and he knew whether they would accept training. So from watching the movies we see that Leia would recognize her duty, (she's very much into duty anyway,) and begin her training as soon as possible.

So in conclusion, I think the only problem with Zahn's trilogy is that it was 5 years after ROTJ. If it had been a year or two, I think there would be far less complaining. (And of course if the NJO and much of the EU didn't exist, I think we'd see the number of arguments drop even more. )

That's just my 2 cents worth.

~Vi~

P.S. - I love Leia. She and Luke are tied for second favorite SW character. Numbe

 

Leia and Mara are not opposites, both are increadibly strong characters with their own losses, accomplishments and things that they still need to work through. In my opinion the SW holy triumberate of Luke Han and Leia are funamentaly at each corner of an equalatteral triangle. Mara ends up somewhere in the middle. Leia and Han, one being a born politician and the other a smuggler, are a bit better at verbal negotiation than Luke could ever be, both are also more likely to go into a battle with guns blazing. Luke and Han however, having the more mobile ablity of being part of the military and not the higher level of comand, are more likely to go out on the missions and be in the direct action. Luke and Leia both have the force and are able to connect on a more basic level of life then what they can with Han, who in much of the fiction that I've read (both pro and fan) is still getting used to the idea of a hokey religion and acient weapons.

Leia is the best at what she does. She was brought up to be a politician, it is in her blood, sith she was the youngest senator ever elected. Like many things we put our lives into, and especially with how involved in it she was, it takes up the majority of our existance. If you build something from scratch it is extreemly hard not to have your hands in everything making sure it goes right especially when lives of billions of worlds are in your hands. Leia was the best and is what held the NR together.

Just look at what happened when she stepped away. Yes, there was peace with the Empire, but that happended while she was still, technically in office and she was the one who instigated it. After that the sithly bothan took over and it all went to sith. (how long can he run on the whole I gave you the plans to the seccond Deathstar, who cares if the Emporer wanted us to have them to set a trap, many of my men who I don't really care about other than to pull at your heart strings, died to get you that info)

I don't think that the characterization of the Solo Children is all that off. While they were small they didn't see their parents much they were in hiding most of the time and basically bonded with winter. Other than that they were with a nany, tutor droids and Threepio and then they were taken under their Uncle's care at the Jedi Academy. Of course they arn't going to identify with their parents as much as one of us would seeing our parents everyday. They are going to identify more with their teachers.

Leia became the vilinisation of a working mother. She wants more time with the kids, but is unable to do more because of her duties to the government, which is also like a child, but with many more people depending on her. She has paid for it too. I agree it was a tragedy that she had to choose the galaxy over her own children. If she had done otherwise it would have torn at her just as much and the Media would have biten her apart at every chance calling it selfish and very unJedilike, placing her family above those millions she has sworn to protect.

To the image of the political wranglings being boring and unimportant to the story as a whole I disagree. The political background is the exact reason for why everything else is taking place. That and as others have said, it is at time more intellecutal than any of the space battles. Personally, I enjoy both, even in the battles there is character development. It also adds another level of suspence. Is everything going to be ok even if the baddies from the empire are defeated? Leia plays in her own feild. And wins.


now I too have writen an essay. maybe I've proven I'm not as much of a ditz as my shortie time restricted posts make me out to be.

see ya all latter time to go to work

 

*giggles*
You guys.....

For my two cents, Leia was right in not pursuing her Jedi training farther than she did. Of course, she does have training and can wield a lightsaber without killing herself, marginally control her emotions, etc.... But she was born and raised to be a diplomat! I do agree that Han and Leia would've made much better parents than the profic authors made them out to be, but they weren't terrible parents! They loved their kids and that's what matters....


A. Windsor and Baby Bantha

 

*see's she's late... runs in trips,* OOHF! Im back. Sorry it's been so long, work was hetic, im working about 40 hours a week now.... Firsta of all Excellent LP! I look forward to more mara! ooo Lukie... dreaming of the lovely mara again? Actually I dont' know a guy that dons't love mara, or at least admire her spunk.

Now. Toranto... You really.... No... I'll be nice. all I'll say is I totally disagree, and should refrian from listening to you. (shakes finger)

Gabri Jade, you said it perfectly, you took the words right out of my mouth. I felt he was very true to the charaters, and made me fall inlove with the story all over again. I couldn't put them down from the first chapter of Heir of the empire... And im not one of those fans taht want all action. I like the intellectual part also. I don't like all one thing, and none of the other.... I liket he perfect amout of action/ intellect/ mush/ and angst. must ballance all of it. as I thought Zahn did wonderfly.

Dear me... *gets off soap box and settles down*

Can't wait to see what happens next....

 

:::giggles at Puggy:::

:::clears voice::: Attention everyone, class, Mara Studies 101, is now in session. Today's topic, your views on her character and how she/fans relate to her relationships with Luke, Leia, and various other units of the GFFA.



:::deposits two cents into the thread:::

Im not all out for essays here, i'll just say this. I love Leia to death, for more reasons than i can and could state. I think Zahn handles her very well in his writings, and i think he is one of, if not the only, EU profic author who has any idea of what the hell he's doing with the SW characters.

I always saw the post-movies Leia as a politican AND a Jedi. I dont think she has to be exactly like Luke in Jedi terms, far from. I just think that she COULD reach the level of Jedi Knight. I myself think she HAS deserved to reach the level of Jedi Knight, and i dont see why NJO has to treat her like a Force-blind pansy when even other previous, crappy books have her doing SOME sort of Force-ability skills.

Like in The New Rebellion, her whole deal with saving Luke, or Planet of Twilight, studying slightly with Callista (not that she's the greatest thing ever) and defeating that Hutt dude. I see her as very talented in the Jedi arts and the Force, being able to use them when she has to.

Like i said, though, i dont see her at Yavin Four. I see her at Coruscant, in the thick of politics, at the head of the govt. Right where she is best at being. Its what she loves, it gives her the outlet to help others, be their voice (i never saw her as anything but compassionate and dedicated to others).

Even in politics, she can use the Force. Like the Old Republic Knights who served as diplomats, or liasons, or things like that. There was a purpose for political suaveness AND Force-enhanced foresight and guidence. Well, you get what im saying.

Mara, i think, gets a bad rep because she isnt understood. Zahn's Mara is too cool for words. I love his Mara. His Mara is the original, the one that people should keep in mind when viewing her.

This is her downside, however, BECAUSE she is an EU-created character. When OT characters, like Luke and Leia, are butchered beyond recognition by EU authors, people can sound off on it because they have the MOVIES to fall back on, to keep in mind what the character is originally like. People dont give Mara this same luxury because she is a product of the EU, so TECHNICALLY, it isnt the same, because both Zahn and the crappy author who gets her character wrong are in the same boat. This is not the case. When an author gets Mara wrong, its the same as getting Luke or Leia wrong, because that view is not how the character is originally SUPPOSED to be viewed.

I also think that the Solo kids have a right to like Mara, love Mara, look up to Mara. She's family, Jaina was her Apprentice even. But i dont they should WORSHIP her, and i dont really think that Mara should be considered above Leia in any way.

Too many people try to put them in the same boat, and that just doesnt work, nor is it fair to either character, BEACUSE THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I think they have a lot in common in certain aspects, yes, but i dont think they are the same, or better or worse than the other, because they simply arent. Both have different strenghs and weakness and excel in those strenghs. They should be given credit for what THEY accomplish, not looked down upon because of what someone else accomplishes.

But thats just me

::Windstar Out::

EDIT: :::giggles::: Guess i did write an essay, afterall

Other EDITS are simply overlooked typos

 

*loves Bri*

Those were the words I was looking for!

 

:::giggles:::

Thank you much, Vi, though i thought you held your own rather well!

::Windstar Out::

 

Geez, you're all maniacs!
And I thought I was safe here!

I would just like to say that I agree completely with Gabri-Jade and add a few things:

I don't think Zahn is perfect, far from it. Everybody knows about Mara's lecture from VOTF, and apart from that I have many other pet peeves on his SW books.

But I fail to see where his own creations "upstaged" the BIG 3, apart from the ending of TLC where Mara went "supergirl" on Luuke and C'baoth.

I think that Leia's presence throught the whole of the TTT was very cool. We must also remember that in VOTF, while M/L almost died against those 2 droids (very lame), Leia was taking control of that war cruiser's command bridge, displaying incredible control, not killing anyone, and never in danger or afraid of falling to the dark side, even while knowing that Han was in danger (chapter 40). If anything, Zahn gave much more potential and maturity as a Jedi to Leia than to Luke. It was very strange, reading Zahn's contraditory thoughts about force usage when comparing Luke to Leia.

I completely accept that Zahn sabotaged Luke's potential and he may be responsile for Luke's state on the NJO.

However, I can't agree that the following NJO cracks are Zahn's fault:

*Leia taking "sith" from Mara. As I already wrote on my previous post: In the 2 talks Leia had with Mara in TLC:

Leia = patient mother
Mara = spoiled brat
Leia: - Sit!
Mara: - Warf! Warf!


*Mara lashing out at everybody with no reason:
TLC: Mara's just come out of the coma, disoriented and angry, and is meeting Winter for the first time:
"...Mara answered, trying to keep a polite voice, for she was talking to someone who was related to Skywalker. - I supose you'll be my companion?"
Mara is for the most part cool and colected, she knows to control her temper, she only lashes out at enemies, trying to irritate them.
I have never read Union, but did Mara lash out at anybody for no reason there?


*Leia's sabotaged Jedi Training: see VOTF scene above.
Also, Leia's variable jedi abilities during the Bantam era shouldn't be blamed on Zahn.
In TTT Leia showed much promisse in the "sensorial" capabilities of the force.
She comunicated easily with Luke, picked his moods, she let the force guide her on quite a few difficult ocasions like on Honoghr or coordinating (all at almost the same time): baby's being born; Coruscant defences; controling political differences=Mon X Iblis - Ackbar X Karrde X Feylia X everyone; discovering Delta Informer; playing psicanalist to a crazy ex-imp who wanted to kill her brother... she could feel the good in Mara (and she was right), she was Mara's "eyes" in the final lunge agains't C'baoth... and when action was needed she held her own.
My interpretation, when I read the books way back in 1994/95, is that in a few more years Leia would be a great jedi. Zahn never said that she would never complete her training.

Did Leia's training falter because KJA and others followed Zahn's lead about Leia's training/political positioning?
As far as I know, KJA couldn't care less about Zahn's ideias. If he was following Zahn's lead about Leia, I wish he'd followed Zahn's lead about Mara too. What happened to "You're on your way to becoming a jedi and you'll need it" and "Hang on, I 'll come with you"?
KJA - A form fitting flightsuit, a few days of training and blast off Yavin to smugle Spice.

R.I.P. TLC Mara. We never got to know you. Later, even your own creator betrayed you.


*Solo kids worshiping Mara, not respecting Leia and Han, admiring her more than their parents:
Well, I love Mara, y'know, but this is just stupid.
In VOTF Leia was a powerfull jedi.

Even if she wasn't a jedi, Zahn can't be blamed for other author's lack of logics.
If they think that the Solo kids wouldn't know about Han and Leia's adventures and victories, from history classes, holonet reportages, or told by Luke, Lando, Chewie, the droids, Winter, etc,etc,etc...
If they came with this incredibly stupid idea of worshiping Mara in detriment of Han and Leia...
Well that