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Reviews Books The JC Lit Reviews Special: CRUCIBLE (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Havac , Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 91.45/20 = 4.57
     
  2. GrumpyGreg

    GrumpyGreg Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    May 27, 2011
    Most have been said so here's the short version. Good points for the quasi-isolated setting. Very unconvincing characterization of the main "smart" asses. Flat, one-dimensional characterization of the support cast. Biots without a single mention of human replica droids or cloning?! I usually don't have much problem with Denning and violence, even if it's really graphic. In this case however it didn't further the plot at all and had no lasting consequences. Surreal mess at the end. Sudden incoherent revelation out of the blue, and then spoonfed conclusion not integrated with the plot.
    I more or less enjoyed first half to tell the truth, but then it started deteriorating and stayed there. A letdown, but readable. Once.
    4/10
     
  3. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 95.45/21 = 4.55
     
  4. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2010
    I knew this novel would disappoint but man....what a tragedy this is!
     
  5. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    4.55 is not that bad a score, just means it is bellow average. :)
     
  6. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2010
    I'm sure Troy Denning tells himself that every night before he goes to bed.
     
  7. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    No, like me he properly hopes to time travel in his sleep to the point when TSR still existed and D&D did not suck. ;)
     
    GrandMasterKatarn and Darth_Foo like this.
  8. The Compeer

    The Compeer Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2013

    In theory, maybe. But what's the average of the average scores for all of the books that have come up for review here? I'm quite sure that it's a lot higher than 5. That's the standard for an "average score" that's relevant, since we're comparing it to other Star Wars books, not an arbitrary ten-point scale that everybody interprets differently.
     
  9. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004

    One should hope they judge it by other stuff they have read and there is always stuff like the later Republic Commando, Crystal Star, Planet of Twilight, Jedi Trial and those TCW novels that are easily far worse.
     
  10. AdmiralWesJanson

    AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    The "4 point scale" is an endemic problem for reviews.
     
  11. neo-dragon

    neo-dragon Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Not a stellar work by any means, but far from awful. It was nice to get a stand alone adventure staring the classic characters. In that respect it reminded me of the Bantam novels, in a good way. While the story kept me interested enough to keep reading, there was nothing particularly compelling, and certainly lacked any sense of grandeur for a story that has been hyped as the great send off for the Big Three. I was also not at all impressed by the villains, and there's something about how Denning writes action sequences that makes it hard for me to envision exactly what is going on, although Crucible isn't his worst offender in that regard.

    All things considered, Crucible is an okay read that recalls a less convoluted time in EU history, but a month from now I'll probably barely remember having read it.

    5/10
     
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 100.45/22 = 4.57
     
  13. kataja

    kataja Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2007
    Crucible by Troy Denning

    Standalone
    Can a novel this far down the timeline and featuring old characters, really be a standalone? Having followed the EU closely, I'm not one to tell. Crucible is full of Mortiss and all kind of references to earlier novels that must confuse a new reader. Then again, if we just take the pacing and 'lifespan' of the plot, I think Crucuble worked very well. It concluded the story it started - and offered a plausible reason as for why Luke, Leia and Han would step aside. And despite 'retiring' my fav characters, it gave me one of the most optimistic endings in a long time.


    The villains
    The Qrephs were the main villains, and I both enjoyed them while reading and in the thought-backs I've had since. When writing a 45 ABY book with Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo and Han Solo as heroes ( + Jedi &co backup) the trick is of course to make them convincing and menacing enough. Denning chose a pretty blatant "say it" approach (supplied with a few starting situations where the villains were simply one step ahead) and while I started out sceptically, I ended up quite enjoying the choise. The Qrephs are decidedly unsympathetic - cruel, unempathetic, sexist megalomaniacs with delusions of grandeur - but they perspective we get on them effectively makes them laughable too. And in the end, the heroes wipe them and their army out completely - a result that becomes more and more obvious as the novel goes on. The heroes, of course, don't get the perspective the readers have, and are more worried.

    I really like Vestara Khai's character - and after this book, I still do. Maybe even more, because now we see her being Sith - stuff that just was hinted to before, so people could have chance to like her. She is a very young woman who's lost not only lost her family but has lost everything she had -and everything she tried to gain - and I think this comes off. She's chillingly cynical - like when she reminds Dena that killing a few hundred basically isn't different than killing 28 thousand. Yet she's painstakingly rational and doesn't generally sport cruelty for fun - and whenever her mind goes to the Skywalkers and particularly Ben - I just got that vibe that something changes in her. I very much hope she can continue to play an interesting part in the EU. And I'll be ever grateful that Denning made her go rogue rather than finding Darth Krayth's Sith and start working for them!

    I didn't really warm to Mitha in LOTF - too much Mando - but here I really liked her. And I loved to see two so different, yet cool female villains paired in a book; starting with being hostile, then finally co-operating. If these two could continue together, they'd not only be a formidable adversary for the new generation of heroes but two villains you actually can root for as well!

    The Heroes
    In the start we see a Jedi order that functions; Luke chooses more of a guiding role but emphasizes the importance of a strong character in a Jedi. The scene is a bit weird, but I suppose that's how it's supposed to function. What i thought was hilarious about the start was, to see a Luke that is tired of being taken care of and needs some air!

    Already before reading the book, I'd seen the author state that it's a Han centric book - I can see what he means. I'd preferred a bit more peace and interaction between the characters, but the focus was on action, and considering that's what Denning does best, I'm ok with it. Having seen Star Trek- Into darkness the evening before I started to read, Luke and Han and Leia stumbling through more and more pain in the novel definitely remembered me of Chris Pine - and the sense of chaos spread similarly - very Han-like. And while it's also one of my major complaints about the book (see below) it DID work well when it comes to actually create a feeling of danger. For a while I actually started to wonder HOW the heck Luke and Leia would manage out of this one - something I haven't done in a long, long time.

    In general, Denning writes Han so much better than he writes Leia and Luke. Which is ok. I liked that someone finally addressed Han's emotions about Chewie, Anakin and Jacen! And I love Han's eyes on Leia - there's so much mature love there!

    AND we got a very small scene of Luke with Artoo and thinking of Mara - let there be no secret that I loved that and would have wanted much, much more. Also liked Artoo waking Luke up from Healing Trance.

    I liked to see Ben & Tahiri co-operate - in general to see her back in the good company! And to see Ben fly wild was cool too!

    The ???
    The Qreph freak cabinet in the end was not exactly my cup of tea, (freak stuff isn't my thing in general) but had its interesting sides; among that seeing a replica of Leia who so clearly wasn't Leia at all because she lacked her personality. Oh, and this reminds me that I take hat off for Denning for being the first to dare mutilate a pretty female character - even if it's clear that Leia will soon recover through healing trance /(this is SW after all -and even Luke got his hand back in ESB jut one scene away.


    BAD
    This was the first time we saw Luke with Leia in a quiet moment. His 'Jedi Solo' just didn't fit.

    "Coming/go after him/her" was a new and very silly phrase that was used several times by Jedi in this book. Snap out of it! Jedi don't think that way!


    Too much pain. My cardinal complain about the Bantam era books is still valid - I'm sick and tired of seeing Luke in pain. EVEN when it adds to the plot. And the descriptions of the torture were far too graphic for my taste. I know SW has contained cruel torture ever since ANH - but why is that so compelling? I myself get bored and skim the text - but I can imagine many people actually stand back.


    All in all a fun, most enjoyable book.

    8,5
     
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999


    For me, it isn't and torture in SW has been very much of a suggestive image, then cut away and you terrify yourself with whatever your imagination conjures up to fill the gap! It hasn't been of this graphic nature.
     
  15. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 108.95/23 = 4.74
     
  16. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    First off, I want to say that for a few hours this book held a special place in my heart. I finished it Monday night, so for about five hours in my time zone, I had finally read every adult Star Wars novel. I'll be happy when I get through Kenobi (which seems to be receiving Plagueis-comparing raves) and reach that point again.

    So, this novel. To my surprise, I really liked it. Maybe it was getting back to Han, Luke, and Leia, maybe it was getting to see Ben, Tahiri, and Jaina get to be Jedi without the entire universe collapsing around them, maybe it was just the adventure, but I had a pretty fun time reading it. I've noted this before in other reviews for his books, but Denning often seems to be to be a story-first guy, often at the expense of character development and I don't think this book is much of an exception. Still, it's an entertaining enough ride that I can forgive him for that.

    I think one of the problems with the EU as it's gone on was the idea of anything being able to stand up to Luke, as if he was evolving into some demigod that no mere mortal could stand against. That seemed to lead to him up against a cosmic entity in the last major series, but here I think the challenge the Big 3 face seems like it's actually putting them through challenges, even if it's not the greatest they've faced. When Luke and Leia are wounded grievously partway through the book, I was honestly wondering how they were going get through their predicament. Han is physically in one of his worst spots when in the hands of the Qrephs and needed some completely random wild card to get out of it (though to be fair, that's a Solo trait).

    I enjoyed the Qrephs. At first, they seemed like the typical villain-of-the-book, with dubious allies who would likely betray them by the end. We're told (over and over) how smart they are, how they're always two steps ahead of our heroes. One of the flaws certainly are that Denning probably tells us this a little too much. What I like, though, is that we are shown every so often their plan coming together and the depths of their depravity, such as the revelation that their attack on Lando's refinery was simply to kill Han. On a 12% chance that he shot their mother. They're easy to hate and for a while they actually seem halfway formidable. Then the end happens and six YVHs and a handful of Jedi blast their way through hundreds of previously almost unstoppable cyborgs. It was like Denning realized he set up a predicament only an army could fight through then just went "screw it, YVHs are just that tough". So yeah, but the climax, things are coming apart a little.

    Nice to have Mirta and Vestara back, though Ves's presence was almost completely pointless. Other than making her even darker and more loathsome as well as reemphasizing her fear of the Jedi and their abilities, she makes little impact on the story. Marvid's betrayal of her was a shocking and satisfying moment, though, a nice turnabout on the expectation that it would be her who eventually rose up and took them out. Mirta actually does get a little development, trying to find a way to fix her inability to return to Mandalore. I actually thought it was a clever way to get her and her people working for the Qrephs, though it also gave Denning a chance to kill more Mandalorians so... there's that.

    Finally, there's the continuing search for Mortis and the discovery of the station/monolith, giving Denning another chance to get trippy like he did in Abyss. I'm not sure how I feel about this continuing search for Mortis. A major point of that trilogy of episodes was that it was ambiguous and for the EU to try to add its own explanation just feels unnecessary. Maybe it will stay that way. I hope it does.

    Pretty enjoyable, obvious flaws, but one of the better standalones in the post-Bantam era. If we get more like this, I won't mind at all. 7.5/10
     
  17. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Got that right. I basically just changed mine.
     
  18. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 116.45/24 = 4.85
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Warning - This book contains spoilers for Star Wars: Crucible.

    Wow, this book is terrible.

    I love Troy Denning, don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of his "first" Crucible book (Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad), the Prism Pentad, and the Dark Nest Trilogy. I also think Star By Star is one of the few NJO books to really feel like Star Wars. If he ever reads this review, I want him to know that Jedi's Honor is one of my all-time favorite pieces of Star Wars fiction.

    However, I think this work just doesn't work. Given this is meant to be the Grand Finale of Luke, Han, and Leia's adventures--it's just sort of strange that so little actually deals with it. It's a difficult job explaining why a bunch of heroes will permanently step down from their roles as heroes.

    The best work to do so, IMHO, was Batman Beyond. Bruce Wayne continued to fight right up until the time he physically could not do so anymore and still continued fighting until he had to use a gun to defend himself. After which, realizing what he was becoming, he stepped down and bought a dog. Even then, it was a constant struggle between Bruce and Terry over who was really in charge. Here, at the risk of spoiling the book, the "Big Three" of the Star Wars univers step down more or less because God tells them it's time to.

    There's a whole sequence which, more or less, takes place in the Force. It's about as sensible as the Beetles' Yellow Submarine movie, which tells you Troy was going for something mystical but just came off as weird. I feel hypocritical saying this, especially since I've asked for years to have more Force mysticism, but this is a bridge too far.

    A subplot of the book deals with the Mortis planet where Obi Wan Kenobi, Anakin, and Ahsoka encountered three Force-personifications (later identified as Celestials). I was really eager to have Luke deal with the fallout of the Abeloth issue and her role as the Mother. So, what happens? Here's a non-spoiler--nothing related to that. Luke, Han, and Leia don't do anything related to Mortis so it seems like a colossal wasted opportunity.

    What's amazing is there's an amazingly important in Luke Skywalker's understanding of the Force. Luke gets an encounter with the the Will of the Force, more or less, and decides that the Dark Side of the Force isn't evil. That it attracts people who are evil and it's important to face it but the revulsion other Jedi feel for it is stupid. It's handled in about two paragraphs and we never hear about it again.

    Seriously!?

    What's strange is there's plenty of individual things to like in this book. I enjoyed the return of Mirta and Vestara to the narrative with both characters getting plenty of development. Troy isn't afraid to take the characters in odd directions and I loved seeing what he did with these two. Mirta wearing a black cocktail dress in a casino, muttering all the way about how this wasn't very Mandalorian, made me laugh outloud. Vestara continues to degenerate further and further--so much so I wonder if it's possible to redeem her. She and Ben could probably never get together now that she's murdered 30,000 people but I think she could still be brought back from the Dark Side.

    I enjoyed the villains too. The Qrephs are a pair of non-Force-users who manage to threaten the galaxy using their superior intellects and wealth. They remind me of Bantam's old villains given they're simultaneously threatening and a wee-bit-humorous. The fact they are aware Mirta and Vestara aren't the slightest bit trustworthy also puts them above most other Star Wars bad guys in terms of common sense. No, I never felt they could seriously threaten the Big Three but too many writers feel the need to make us believe our heroes have never faced something equal to the current threat. The fact Troy Denning repeatedly highlights how outclassed the Qrephs are helps sell the narrative.

    Other parts of the book, though, are just plain weird. In addition to the acid trip where Luke visits the Force with Leia (and Han!) there's a clone of Leia. Just, outright, out of the blue. She doesn't add anything to the story but exists solely so Han Solo can be creeped out by a duplicate of his wife from A New Hope. I would never accuse an author of being high on Kessel spice but this book makes me wonder. What's amazing is this isn't even the weirdest part of the book! I'm serious, there are actually stranger bits in this story.

    Finally, this is going to seem like a very strange complaint but the book feels oddly stuck between being a novel all Star Wars fans can enjoy and those who are die-hard fans of the Expanded Universe. There's too much information about the Fate of the Jedi and Legacy of the Force series while not enough information to feel like a full-on sequel. Given every Star Wars book is someone's first, I understand this is a hard balance to strike but I had to think this book was incomprehensible for new readers.

    I'm not saying to avoid this book, it has value as the final bow of the Skywalker-Solo clan, but it's not Denning's finest.

    5/10
     
  20. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 121.45/25 = 4.86
     
  21. T-boy-wan

    T-boy-wan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2006
    It took me a while to read and I think that might be because I just wasn't interested. The idea was ok but the execution was boring.

    1) too much graphic injury. It did nothing for the actual story and was unnecessary. It IS actually possible to read our heroes in dire situations without having to constantly cripple them.
    2) The Jedi in Chapter 2. Don't think I need to say more.
    3) Stop telling me Kaeg is like a young Han Solo and actually back it up.
    4) It felt like Tahiri was just name dropped in. The book did nothing for her, except have Denning wave the inappropriateness of Ben/Tahiri from Invincible in our faces.
    5) It's been a while since I read Apocalypse, but should Vestara be THAT evil?
    6) Jedi are holier than thou. Yes, they have special abilities but does everyone else have to be referred to as inferior constantly?

    I struggle to find much I actually enjoyed. 2/10
     
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  22. Allana_Rey

    Allana_Rey Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Well this book sure seems to have a good rep. o_O
     
  23. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 123.45/26 = 4.75
     
  24. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I'm about to get a karking lot of flak here...but I liked most of this book.

    The Bad

    Mirta. I love her character but she spent all of zero seconds in this book in-character. Whether it's wearing a poker dealer's outfit or a low-cut dress, she is OOC for the whole book, almost. At the beginning she was pretty good...for the five seconds she was actually in Mandalorian armor. :confused:

    The Jedi training scene. A) Why does Luke carry a blaster? B) Why does he allow live-fire to be directed at an apprentice who wasn't even Padawan-level yet? I understand he was trying to make a point but it's just done the wrong way.

    The injuries. Han loses an eye. The kark? At his age he should be worried about losing his teeth, not his eyes.

    The occasional sexualizing of Leia? It's not too bad in this book, but why would Marvid Qreph find her attractive? I did like it when Han said even injured, she was the most beautiful woman in the galaxy, though. That's true love, and it fits.

    The healing thingies at the end. Eyeballs in Luke's neck, Han gets a Wookiee foot, Leia has a rock chest, etc. It sounded like Denning was going for mystical and totally failed.

    Luke "discovers" what Vergere told him over fifteen years ago.

    Luke retiring.

    In one scene, Leia said that in the Force she could tell Han was PO'ed ('cept she said the actual word). I don't think that expression fits in Star Wars at all, and especially when it came out of Luke's mouth a moment later, too. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd use any profanity, or not much anyways.

    The Good

    Luke, Han, and Leia finally being together! For the last decade or so, it's been Luke doing one thing, Han and Leia doing another. It was great seeing Luke and Leia together, looking for Han. Really, really fun.

    I enjoyed Barduun. His insanity was...interesting.

    The Qrephs. Some people don't like them; I did. But I'll say this; when people say they didn't like that Palpatine was said to be the intelligence level of a gnat compared to them...I don't get why you're complaining, because that was from Marvid's POV, so it's obviously just his own arrogance. No one actually believes that (except the Qrephs).

    Ben and Tahiri. Them being together, not so much, but both of them were written well and I got a good laugh when Tahiri said about Omad something like "He sounds cute. Hope he doesn't die before he gets to meet me." Which brings me to...

    Omad. He didn't do much, but I found him fun.

    Han and Leia retiring. Unlike Luke, this actually made a lot of sense.

    Overall review: 7/10

    This was much better than Apocalypse and Invincible.
     
  25. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Average score: 130.45/27 = 4.83