Reviews Books The JC Lit Reviews Special: REPUBLIC COMMANDO: TRIPLE ZERO (spoilers)

Yeah, Garrison kind of lost points in my book when he torched the Constitution. I was just thinking up names of abolitionists, and Lincoln was too obvious.

 

The constant bickering over clones, Mandoes, and an author who was kind enough to try and reach to the community only to be chased over, gets rather old rather quick, in case you guys didn't know.

 

Apparently this isn't just a review thread, it's a defend your review thread. OK, then:

Oh, I would have no problem with a frank assessment of Mandalorian qualities. Too bad that wasn't what I got. Instead, it was a one-sided glowing appraisal.

I call Etain a mouthpiece for Karen because her feelings on Mandalorians, Jedi, family, etc. align remarkably with comments made by Karen in her various postings. As to it being a problem, it's about that old saying "Show, don't tell". Characters being used as mouthpieces is as blatant as the writer saying "This is the moral".

More like character regression; she acts like she's 12. And it's very inconsistent with her portrayal in HC; that is, her portrayal where she was supposed to be unconfident and insecure was stronger than her portrayal in TZ. And intentional or not, it's still supremely annoying. If this results in Etain following a dangerous path and either reaping the consequences or changing her ways, I'll think better. But from Karen's own thoughts on the Jedi and Mandos that she's posted, it sure looks like she believes that even if Etain has flaws, she's intending that the character has the right gist.

Er, how about the ways I just said? Super-awesome soldiers who everyone loves and wants to be a part of ring a bell?

Interestingly, you've demonstrated your inability to form an actual argument. You're complaining about my word choice.

It breaks up the flow of the text. It's inconsistent; Omega goes from speaking no Mando'a in HC to speaking no Mando'a in Targets to dropping it left and right. And it reeks of showing off, like the author just got a new toy and has to use it at every possible opportunity.

Where did I call Vau a one-dimensional caricature? I never said he had only the killer instinct remaining. The Mandalorian ideal is much more; it's about brutal pragmatism, an ends-oriented mentality, a focus on belonging and a disregard for outsiders. Someone following pure Mandalorian ethic is no more one-dimensional than a person who follows the ideals of the Sith completely. Just because they're bad people doesn't make them flat.

Yeah, I don't think Etain

 

Lord_H:

What you said at the end was what I think Karen was driving at.. it definately was a character slide to the Dark Side..

 

Well, that's debatable. I mean, I certainly agree that she's on track to the dark side, but as to what Karen thinks... I've seen Karen post her thoughts on the Mandalorians and Jedi, I've seen her say that she cheered during Order 66, and while I have no doubt she considers Etain to have some flaws, I don't believe that she's indicating that the main thrust of her choice is flawed.

As to the specific points I raised, don't let the fact that I responded to QM point by point make it look like my entire opinion of the book is centered around those things. My comments about Mandalorians are supposed to be illustrative of the problems I had with the book, not a complete condemnation of that book solely because of them. Take the review of the book for what it's meant to indicate: an above-average action yarn with well-done prose and a few highlights, but with a lack of relatable characters, some large basic writing flaws, and a by-the-numbers plot.

This is a thread reviewing a book about clones and Mandalorians. Discussion about them is inevitable. As to the second part, that's an unfounded accusation at the members of this board that she was "chased over".

 

Yep, these "boo hoo Karen got chased away" accusations are getting old real quick. She left of her own volition before the whole "3 million debate" went down.

 

L_H:

I think Coon is talking about the fact that the boards have been struck with some kind of clone/mando bias, whether it is pro or con, and that the bickering have taken the fun out of the Lit Threads. Although IGTL seems to have a lot of fun with what he is doing...

And is it really fair to assume an author's opinions and motivations?

000:

But the fact is she left, and we are one VIP short of an opinion. Evidence might be short but the fact is there are ways to insult someone with no ever finding out about it.

Mods:

Ban me from bringing it up. No excuses.

 

Well, here is where my position gets trickier. I think the thing that irks me the most about the clone thing is, actually, the droid thing.

I have long believed that the treatment of droids in the Republics (Old and New) is reprehensible hypocrisy on the part of a society that claims to provide equal consideration and rights to all sentients, regardless of their form and yet blithely accepts mass droid slavery.

It just strikes me as both completely hypocritical and, frankly, ignorant. Humanoids are sentient because they have patterns of synaptic firing taking place in a complex network of relays made of neurons. Droids have the same thing. Instead of neurons they have computer circuits, but the material comprising the network that carries the data isn't what makes something intelligent, it's the data itself.

Now, this is something I've had to grumble about quietly for years and essentially had to pretty much ignore in order to enjoy SW, but now here we have the clone armies. Manufactured in a factory on Geonosis, and programmed for specific uses. To me, the only difference between a cloned soldier of the type we're talking about in the Clone Wars and a battle droid is that one is made of meat and the other is made of metal.

Now, if we were suddenly going to be inundated with a wave of books about Droid Liberation Consciousness or something, I'd be thrilled to see the clones treated as people as well. But until that happens...

The whole thing is based in this outdated romantic notion that people's brains and computers are fundamentally different somehow, that organic material is qualitatively unique and totally incomparable with inorganic material, that life is some weird mysterious thing other than what it is: a bunch of chemical reactions and so on and so forth. It's just plain stupid, to be frank.

 

My review:

I actually read the book when it first came out, because I loved HC and hoped for a comparable read. I had to hold off on forming an opinion however, for fear that reading all the clone/Mando debating would cloud my own perspective. But here goes.

First, the whole clone/Mando thing doesn't bother me one way or the other. We already know that the Jedi encouraged some individuality among the clones, and that the Empire did away with all of it at the earliest opportunity, so I find it to be a moot point.

The well written action and interesting clone point-of-views were the highlights. I enjoy stories of the non-movie characters and can actually picture this as a good Clone Wars version of the excellent X-wing series.

The downside comes with the Jedi. I would have prefered there to be no Jedi included in the story, since this kind of black-ops, take no prisoners operation is not well suited to their methods of operation. I found it impossible to believe that both Etain and Jusik were so willing to give up on everything the Jedi had taught them since they were small children, everything they had EVER known about the galaxy, to join up with a bunch of soldiers they had spent only a few days with. Jedi may not have attachments, but that doesn't mean they aren't a family to each other. Anakin had experienced life outside the Temple walls - he at least knew what it was like. Etain and Jusik had no such experience. They only knew what they had been taught and yet find it easy to just give up on that. I found their behavior to be completely unrealistic and the parts with them were a chore to get through.

Also, there's more to be said about Etain in particular. I compared her to other Jedi from the Clone Wars era. We have Depa Billaba, a respected Master and member of the Council, who spends six months fighting a brutal guerilla war alongside an army of Force-sensitives and their dark side emitting leader. There's Quinlan Vos, not a very good Jedi himself, but consider what he's been thorugh: his mind wiped, leaving his Force powers uncontrollable, which nearly drove him to the dark side; he was forced to relive the brutal murders of his parents, betrayed by his own family, sent on an impossible infiltration mission against a Sith master of manipulation, driven into the dark side AGAIN during which time he gets his girlfriend pregnant. That's alot for anyone to go through. Then we have Etain, who went on a single commando mission and somehow had the revelation that she was the savior of the clones, then got herself pregnant by one the first chance she got. Her actions were not only unbelievable but also very annoying.

In all, I did enjoy this book. I just wish the Jedi had played no part in it.

Score: 8/10

 

Well, droids aren't part of the Force, for one thing. But yeah, I think some droids are fully sentient. However, some droids really don't have much in the way of sentience, like load lifters. Battle droids have some intelligence, but I'm not sure it's enough to move them beyond the level of, say, a gundark. (That's still enough to deserve more rights than they often get.) Also, droids can be hard-wired to only care about their orders, to have no other desires or concerns. You can't really do that to people.

Anyways, droid personhood was discussed in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and Medstar, what with I-5 and all. There was also a thing about it on HoloNet News. See these pages at Wookieepedia

 

Guess I'll have to retract my apology then. Geez, and to think I believed you were telling the truth.

 

Acts of war. Few would argue that the U.S. is inherently evil because of the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden.

You mean apart from killing hundreds of millions of Imperial Navy personnel, Stormtroopers, etc, in battle?

It's war, burc'ya.

Quite frankly, I disagree.

No, I wouldn't say "jumped". You left a trail, and I followed it.

I'm not surprised he'd go out and say something like that.

And lo, it bore a name, and that name was Republic Commando: Triple Zero.

Taking a page out of Sean Penn's book, Bipod?

My thanks, Comrade Commissar Bipod, for that spurring and yet wholely fictitious introduction. Comrade Beria has taught you well, it seems.

I can't wait until you begin using arguments that actually make sense.

Now this is a curious argument. On the one hand, we already know that droids are markedly not human, yet you seem to be ignorng the fact that the battle droids in the PT have a great deal of human traits, simply to try and make your point, which seems to be that the clones are not really human, and simply organic droids, yet the vast majority of the EU presents the argument that prejudice against droids is a sort of racism, and is to be discouraged, which leaves me to wonder if the real difference for you is not the level of sentience/humanity, but whet

 

Folks -

This is a review thread. So really, unless you're posting a review or tallying them, you should probably be discussing this in the TZ thread (or some other thread started for that).

Thanks.

 

Will do, sir.

 

I'd just like to respond to this because it's short and I'd like to clear up the misconception:

I don't see how I'm contradicting myself. I like KOTOR, I like Open Seasons, I like Hard Contact; all have Mando elements, some more than others, and all but the latter have Mando protagonists. You're assuming that by "frank assessment" I mean I want them as some slavering-jawed psychopathic thugs who kick puppies for fun. No, I mean that both good and bad elements are represented, and any bad elements aren't shoved under the table or whitewashed to create a false romanticized notion. In my opinion, that's what Triple Zero did.

With that cleared up, gladly.

 

I never got the impression that TZ was trying to hide the "bad" side of the mandalorian mindset, just that it was not spelled out explicitly for obvious reason that every POV in the book, save Etain, has grown up knowing only the mando way. The subtext of Etain's POV also seemed to contain plenty of hints that she knew that her actions were "wrong", but was too insecure to stand up to the group pressure and object.

I think that if Traviss was really attempting to whitewash mandalorian culture, we'd all be thinking that it really was the greatest thing ever. Instead we've had it presented in a way where things are not spelled out, but still left in plain view for the readers to pick up on.

 

Which is exzactly what TZ did, in case you haven't noticed.

Considering what you've been posting over the past little while, "frank assessment" seems to be defined for you as Karen pulling out some character (blessed like Etain supposedly is with patented author-truth) to proclaim "The Mandos are slavering-jawed psychopathic thugs who kick puppies for fun!! This is the Truth!! Jedi Pwn!! I am the Walrus!!".

 

I'd like to think that. I really would. And I probably would if I hadn't read Traviss' postings on blogs or the Insider article. But I'm going to retract the statement "one-sided". That was admittedly more of a reaction to QM's own POV, not TZ's. "Slanted" is a better term. Traviss does add flaws and bad actions to the Mandos, flaws that she didn't have to add. That right there makes it not one-sided. However, the extent that the narrative goes to highlight the glowing points (including the epigraphs and even quotes from the Big Bad Jedi Zey and Camas) and makes the flaws more like "just one of those things" strikes me as skewed. Not all character flaws are created equal. Look at ROTS, comparing Anakin to Obi-Wan. Both have their own character flaws, but it's clear which are the ones there to make the character interesting and which ones we should say "Oh crap, that can't be good". And the tone I picked up from TZ and Traviss' posts elsewhere was that the actions of the Mandos fall into the former category. Now, here's where the Fandos say "He's biased! He thinks anything that doesn't show the Mandos being evil isn't good enough!" That's not my intent (although I should mention that anyone with an opinion is biased; the problem is being unfairly biased). Rather, that from everything we've read about the Mandos, not just TZ, their flaws fall a lot more into the latter category. It's like portraying Anakin mid-ROTS as "basically a good guy with a few flaws, but nobody's perfect". It's simply not consistent with their other appearances.

As to Etain, I said that Etain's comments in many cases sound like those of Traviss'. I didn't mean she was exclusively Traviss' mouthpiece, just that there were several points from her POV where it sounded like Traviss was saying "Here's the moral. See?", which pulled me out of the story.

And I'll point out again that despite the focus of responses on this section, this isn't the main reason, or even close to that, behind my review. It's simply an annoying note in the book.

 

Lucky you.

Was it? Interesting...

And yet again, we see another statement based on the presuposition that Mando characters must be loaded with "Oh crap, that can't be good" elements in order to succeed in the mind of one reader who cannot, apparently, conceive of them being in any way other.

Personally, the only person I can recall using the word was ner vod Mandalorian_Crusader, though in his defence, I have to say that you make it remarkably easy to make that assumption...

True, but then again, like everything else, it depends heavily on one's POV.

And here's an example of what I would call being unfairly biased, though you'd likely disagree:

No, it's like judging the civil-rights record of the contemporary U.S. by confining one's studies solely to the pre-Civil War Southern states.

That statement might be true, if the Mandos in question were Neo-Crusaders, but they aren't, and contemporary Mandos are a different breed entirely.

That's willful ignorance at best, considering the aforementioned knowledge of Open Seasons, or the perspective that even a cursory glance at their appearances in the Marvel comics.

Again, I tend to wonder if perhaps you're simply letting your pre-established position interpret things for you. In my case, I found Etain's supposed "mouthpiece" moments (and I see know reason why an author should not have a mouthpiece, though Karen would likely contradict me) to be much more ambiguous. She's in a bad way emotionally, something that Kal is, I think, aware of and is or will attempt to help.

 

Um, does no one read what I write?

 

Erg, sorry. I'll try and make sure any further discussion goes to the proper thread.

 

*DP4M* reholsters Warnstick

*DP4M* draws Banstick

*DP4M* Brandishes Banstick at participants..


*Rohniss* jumps into foxhole and begins to pray to the One for the All..

 

These arguements make Fist sad. I like the old days when there were no hatred towards any member of the community (except the occasional Conehead) and we all coexisted peacefully, with only Abel's Mando article and Karen and Ryan to subsist on. We wanted more Mando info and got it. Unfortunatly, it appears now people either hate the Mand or love it fanatically. Gets a little tired...

 

Going in to this book I admit I was a bit hesitant, being wary that the Fett mystique would be further deconstructed to a point where silent bravado was exchanged for a yet another repetition of an all too common genre society.

Fortunately, the book immediately captured me with its ability to portray a depth of human thought and emotion that?s often very much lacking when it comes to the average Star Wars novel. On an ascetic level, I loved the plot structure that primarily revolved around a giant waiting game where low-key but trenchant character interaction upstaged the "necessity" for action. A few weeks back I remember saying how much I?d love to see a SW book with a very stationary plot that doesn?t rely on the fervor of constant planet-hopping. As luck would have it, this book delivered.

In regards to thematic content, there was much to soak in with Triple Zero. I loved Fi?s unresolved jealously at seeing several his brothers getting female attention, as well as his constant fixation on Coruscant as a normal city that he couldn?t be part of. The comparisons of Jedi to clones was very poignant, perhaps hitting the hardest wan Etain was told that in reality perhaps she was given the worst deal of all being that her parents willingly gave her up. And perhaps most importantly, all the Mandalorian conjecture didn?t overshadow the basic flow of the story or immediate impact of the operation the commandos undertook. I could see how some fans may have been a bit perturbed at Traviss for intentionally or unintentionally relegating the Jedi as a group inferior to Mandalorians on all levels from fighting mentality to emotional bonding, but I think she pulled off a voice that remained neutral and analytic enough that ultimately the reader has to be the one who interprets the events of the story into their own moral and worldly viewpoints (I think Traviss?s background as a journalist really helped out in regards to this.) For instance, while it?s obvious that Skirata considered himself above the Jedi in every way, in reality I think the character himself was guilty of processing his own obsession with his makeshift family as something that overrode the fact that at the end of the day, the Mandalorian lifestyle is a mercenary one where pay levels, and not ideals, are paramount.

If nothing else, this only stressed the book?s greater message that, while war can bring nothing but cold hard examples of dehumanization and violence, the very fact that genuine moments of human emotion still exist are proof enough that all is never lost.

8/10

 

Don't know when I'll have time to review Triple Zero, Swarm War is still waiting for me. Two key issues Hutt weigh the book down---the utter lack of action, and the breeziness of the Tur-Mukan relationship.

7 / 10

Were it not for great characterisation which is often anathema in Star Wars novels of recent years, it ought to be have gotten less. I don't take books of oure boredom kindly. Anyone with a quarter of Excellence can see there's a setup for a third commando book, and the longetivity subplot caused issues too.