PT The Jedi’s plan to arrest Palpatine in his office

Mace's first decision is to arrest the Chancellor. Yes, Mace could've warned the others, but he had no idea what Palpatine's plan was in that movie, and said he had to act quickly. You can argue he made a rash and impulsive choice. I think it could be suggested that that may have been the point.

 

Even Yoda said as much. "Too sure of themselves they are, even the older, more experienced ones." I don't think he was talking about just the Padawans. He meant everyone in the Jedi Order. Being overconfident in your skills isn't just the exclusive property of Anakin Skywalker. He's just the loudest of the bunch (That we know of.)

 

The person I was debating with made the argument that Mace knew/suspected that Palpatine was about to do something to the Jedi as a whole. Likely using the clone army.
I argue that based on that, Mace SHOULD have warned the Jedi in the field and the Jedi left in the temple.
That is the sensible and logical thing to do and it would not have taken much time.
Mace did not do that because Mace was an idiot.

Mace did act rashly and I argue that Palpatine let the Jedi know who he was because he was counting on them doing something rash. So he could use that against them.
And Mace could have found out that Palpatine just told Anakin that he was a Sith and then let him leave.
And unless Mace was stupid, he would realize that this reeks of a trap. Palpatine let the Jedi know he was a Sith, hoping that they would panic and do something dumb. And what do you, they did.

So I do not think that what Mace did was the correct, logical and most sensible choice. It was a very dumb choice.
That might have been the intent by Lucas but it does not make it any less dumb.

Have you? If you had you would know that Palaptine was Chancellor of the Senate of the Republic. Not the President of the galaxy as the republic did not encompass the whole galaxy.

So Palpatine would just lock himself in his office and see no one? Would he be present when the senate is in session? If yes, then the Jedi can tell him and all the senators then. "Good news, Griev is dead and the droid armies are leaderless and in disarray. The war is drawing to a close. We remind you chancellor of your promise to lay down these special powers at the end of the war."
If Palpatine refuses, then the senate all hears that. And the Jedi know he will not stand down. Now they can plan their next move. But the senators also know that Palpatine is trying to cling to power.

If Palpatine refuses to even attend sessions of the senate and does not allow visitors, that would lead to talk. "Why is the chancellor suddenly locking himself in his office?" "Why does he refuse to attend the senate?"
The Jedi could then inform the senate about Griev's death and that the war is ending. And ask them what they think should happen since the chancellor refuses to see anyone.

If nothing else, if they can not see Palpatine, then talk to the rest of the council, tell them the situation, make plans, recall what Jedi they can. Move young Jedi off-Coruscant, be on their guard.
In essence, prepare and don't be stupid.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Personally, I don't agree that in the ROTS movie, Mace particularly suspected the use of the clone army as a threat. I think he suspected Palpatine taking some form of action and decided to arrest him before any action could take place.

 

"We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive".

 

Unfortunately, some think Palpatine became a military dictator by the end of the TPM...

or that is how some of the posts read.

 

Mace doesn't think this is a trap. Or even if he did, what did Obi-Wan just say they should do?

ANAKIN: "What do we do?"

OBI-WAN: "Spring the trap."

His belief is that Palpatine could use the Senate to topple the Jedi. He still thinks the Clonetroopers aren't a liability. His only concern is lies with the Senate.

As to other senators, as I said, he can kill them and claim they are traitors.

 

If he does not suspect the Clone army to be a possible threat then he is an idiot.
Mace knows full well all the question marks around the army. he knows said army obeys orders without question. If we add TCW to the mix, he knows that Dooku was Tyrannus so the Sith hired Jango to be the template, ergo the sith were involved in the creation of this army. And now he knows that a sith is the leader of the republic, the same republic that has a clone army that obeys orders without question.
For Mace not to see this means he is seriously stupid.

The sith were involved in the creation of a totally obedient clone army, a clone army that a sith now has the highest authority over and the sith will not make use of that army because?????

What other action can Palpatine really take to destroy the Jedi?
Plant a bomb in the Jedi temple?
Cast "Power Word Kill" on all Jedi?

How will Palpatine use the senate to destroy the Jedi? Tell the senators to get a weapon and go out and kill all Jedi? Will he pick up the senate building and throw it at the Jedi temple?
If the senate makes a bill that makes Jedi illegal or declares them traitors, that in of itself will not cause all Jedi to fall down dead. Who will hunt the Jedi down? The clones.
RotS makes a point of having Palpatine getting more and more power and the senate is getting weaker and weaker. The Jedi know this. So how much need does Palpatine have of the senate in RotS? Not much as he has gathered a lot of power to himself.

As I said above, Mace is aware of the shady things with the clone army and how the clones will obey orders without question. The Sith were involved with their creation TCW says and now a Sith controls the clone army. What reason would Mace have for NOT thinking that the clones might be used against them?
Not considering that makes Mace into a blundering, colossal dimwit.

But as a times happens in the PT, the Jedi have to hold the Idiot Ball so the plot can happen.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

By your perception, maybe, but I'd disagree, in that way. Even in keeping TCW, there's no guarantee Mace wouldn't react the way he does as a way to cut off the situation at the head.

If we're also using TCW, we're shown that the clones don't just obey orders without question, and the episode where they learn about Dooku having hired Jango to be the clone template ends with them choosing to put their trust in the clones. And not counting TCW, Mace doesn't know anything for certain, as far as is developed in the PT, so I think taking the direct course of action is something the character could do.

 

Mace is shown to take a direct approach. “This party’s over” in AOTC for example.

 

The following is NOT my perception but are things established IN the films and that the Jedi are aware of.
1. Their archives have been tampered with and Kamino removed. And only a Jedi could have done this.
2. On Kamino a clone army is being made, supposedly ordered by a Jedi master, at the request of the senate. The request of the senate thing is a lie and the Jedi know that as the senate never made such an order. The "ordered by a Jedi Master" is very much in doubt as this Jedi Master is dead and according to Obi-Wan, he was killed before the order was placed. If true, then the army was ordered under a false name.
3. The template for this clone army was involved in an attempt to murder an outspoken opponent of the army bill, currently being debated in the senate. He also has never heard of the Jedi that supposedly ordered the army and was hired by someone else. And he is in fact working for Dooku, a former Jedi, now turned to the Dark Side.
4. These clones have been modified to be less independent and they obey any order without question.
5. Palpatine is granted emergency powers by the senate and he creates an army for the republic, in this case the clones. So Palpatine now has more power than what a chancellor normally has.
6. The senate has voted for more and more powers to Palpatine so he has gotten more and more powerful.
7. Dooku is a Sith Lord and the Sith always work in pairs and now Palpatine is revealed as the other sith lord. Dooku's master. So Palpatine and Dooku have been working with each other. So this whole war is fake, staged.

All this the Jedi know so they have loads of reasons to suspect things with the clones and add to this Palpatine being in charge of the republic and having way more power.
So what possible reason could Mace have for thinking that it is impossible for Palpatine to use the clone army against the Jedi?

If non-film sources are accepted then Palpatine is commander-in-chief of the republic's armed forces.

If you don't accept this as not clearly stated in the films then anything in TCW goes as well.

But let me ask you a question, if the clones are totally out of the question as something Palpatine can make use of, what does Mace think Palpatine WILL use?
What means, other than the clones, does Palpatine have access to that will enable him to destroy the Jedi Order and wipe out all Jedi?
You argue that Mace is in a hurry to stop Palpatine from doing something bad, what is that bad if it is not the clones?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I think them being idiotic, in the way I think you suggest is what I'd call your perception.
I'd argue what you provide doesn't change my overall point, in Mace's immediate first action being to go and arrest Palpatine. I said you could argue he makes a rash and impulsive action in pursuing that action above all else. I think, in theory, that makes sense for what's established in that movie for his character.

You brought up TCW as a showcase of story evidence, not me, within this particular conversation. Within that information, what has been established is that the clones absolutely do not obey any order without question and that they certainly aren't particularly subservient to Palpatine and the jedi have chosen to trust the clones.

 

The point is that Mace believes that Palpatine would declare them criminals in the Senate, ruin their reputation and then order their arrest. He's not thinking about Order 66 as a possibility. The Jedi don’t consider "taking orders without question" as anything other than following the Jedi, and not Palpatine. Mace also believes that he can arrest Palpatine without his being able to seek help. Dooku, Ventress and Grievous are dead. Maul is missing.

Note that Palpatine doesn't issue Order 66 until afterwards. He's all alone except for his guards, who were neutralized. He is as arrogant to think he might not lose.

 

In that point in the movie, Mace feels things have gone too far and arriving to arrest Palpatine is the last course of action. He explains his reasoning pretty clearly and effectively, IMO. Palpatine controls the senate and the courts. If time is of the essence as Windu suspects, he and the Jedi can’t wait to prove their allegation as the Sith aren’t innocent but protected. Windu is trying to take back a sense of control after they were all sleepwalking into oblivion for so long. I can understand that, even if the Jedi’s demise is only accelerated by his failed arrest.

 

Does Mace have the authority to arrest Palpatine on his own? Isn't stuff like this the entire reason the council exists?

 

The senior Council members just talked about it, when Anakin went to tell Palpatine that Obi-Wan had engaged Grievous.

 

Yarel Poof: "Oooh, so it's a council now, it's not just the two of you? Hey, dog-face, did you know this was a council?!"

Sorry, sorry. Had Robot Chicken's skit on him when I read that. xD

 

There won’t be a council if we don’t act now would be Mace’s point of view.

 

I’m loving this discussion and the various ways the final confrontation with Palpatine could have gone. I wonder what would have happened if Mace was more cautious and triggered the recall order as soon as he found out about Palpatine’s true identity. This would bring thousands of Jedi back to Coruscant., over the course of several weeks, as @darth-sinister noted. This would bring many more Jedi back to the Temple, which would make it much more formidable against attack. If, the Jedi could get away, that is. The war was still raging at that point, after all. This recall would bring Yoda back to the Temple as well. If Mace and Yoda went to face Palpatine together, would that be enough to destroy Darth Sidious? I agree that Palpatine planned everything to the T. His revelation to Anakin was perfectly timed and I think that the best thing to do there would be to wait. But, as was noted earlier, the Jedi still have faith in the clones. That, I think, is the deciding factor that makes Mace move quickly rather than wait. In his mind, there’s only one threat left to the Jedi, and it’s a single person. It’s the arrogance of the Jedi that they think this Sith Lord that has hidden from them for decades could be so easily defeated. I love learning more details about the days leading up to the Purge and the Purge itself. Operation: Knightfall must have been incredibly thorough and comprehensive.

 

Nope, the Jedi and Mace are being stupid. Take Mace, he tells no one what he is doing, he does not tell anyone what Anakin told him, he does not even tell Anakin to pass this information along.
Is Palpatine being a Sith Lord important? YES! And yet Mace sees no need to let anyone else know.
Or let anyone else know what he is about to do. If Mace fails and is killed, the other Jedi have no idea that Palpatine is a Sith nor have they any idea why Mace did what he did. Information is VITAL. And not passing along information when you have the chance to, that is idiotic.
Imagine if in RotJ, some rebels found out that Endor was a trap and they could have contacted the rest of the rebel alliance and warn them. But instead they, about five guys, goes and tries to destroy the DS2 all by themselves. Is this smart or dumb?

In the DS9 ep "The Valiant" pretty much this happens, an crew of cadets get ahold of some valuable info but instead of going back and letting Star Fleet know, they instead try and destroy a big target by themselves. They fail and almost all of them die and the information is lost. And they at least had the small excuse that they were cadets, inexperienced, Mace is a senior Jedi Master.

Plus, as I've said, Palpatine let Anakin know he was a Sith and then allowed him to leave. So he set this situation up. And Mace could find this out if he asked Anakin. So would Mace not think it odd that the Sith Lord that have stayed hidden for a long time just out of the blue tells a Jedi who he is?
If he had any brains he could think that the jedi are being set up, the Sith let them know who he is, likely counting on them doing something rash.
You agree that what Mace did was rash, but this makes it dumb. Palpatine set the Jedi up and Mace totally fell for it.

If non-film sources are allowed then the Jedi know that the sith were involved in the creation of the clone army, a sith is head of the republic and also commander-in-chief over said clone army. Meaning that a sith outranks the Jedi when it comes to giving orders to the clones.
So for the Jedi to go, "Hmm, the sith either created or had a hand in creating the clone army, a sith has command of this clone army, could the sith possibly use the clone army against us??" "Naaahh, that would never happen, we have no reason at all to think the clones might turn on us." That is colossally stupid.
And what happens? The Jedi never once think the clones could turn on them and when the clones do, the Jedi are taken totally by surprise. Given what the Jedi know, only an idiot would not smell a rat.
The Sith were behind the clone army and the Jedi know that. What did they think the Sith would use the clones for? Help the Jedi win the clone war because the Sith decided to give the Jedi a sporting chance?

So Mace thinks that Palpatine will try and paint the Jedi as the bad guys to the senate. How then is it a good idea to play right into that by barging into Palpatine's office, sword drawn?
This gives Palpatine what he wants. He now has "proof" that the Jedi were attempting a coup.
Suppose that Palpatine was not alone, he had several of his senators allies with him and some soldiers.
The Jedi barge in and Palpatine goes, "See my friends, it is as I told you, the Jedi are coming to kill me."
And if Mace goes "No...umm in the name of the senate, you are under arrest."
Palpatine: "Really, in the name of the senate? Did any of you tell them to do this?" Turning to the senators.
Palpatine: "What is the charge against me?"
Mace: "Umm.... you are a Sith Lord"
Palpatine: "Really, a Sith Lord, have you heard anything more ridiculous? What is your evidence of this?"
This could go quite badly to the Jedi.
Plus, since Palpatine let them know that he was a sith, he could have planned a trap.
Say, they barge into his office, sword drawn, Palpatine films that but he isn't there and then blows the room up. Mace and co are dead and Palpatine have "proof" of the Jedi being criminals.

Also, the argument that some her are making is that Palpatine is about to do something that destroys the Jedi order and kills all Jedi. Making a bill in the senate will not do that.
If the bill pass, the Jedi are criminals but they are still alive. And who will arrest the Jedi?
The clones, if yes then the clones are a threat and if they will obey an order to arrest the Jedi then why would they not obey an order to kill the Jedi?
If local cops, how much chance does local cops have against Jedi?
Plus people are arguing this is urgent, hence why Mace have no time to warn other Jedi. Telling Anakin to warn other Jedi would take about 5 seconds but I guess that is too long.
The senate in the PT isn't always depicted as being super fast, it can be quite slow at times.
So a senate bill might not be that quick. And if the Jedi have some senators that support them, they can slow it down.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I disagree. And who says he told no one? Clearly he must've told someone, because he brought people with him to battle.
Like I said, I think this can make sense in accordance to Mace's situation.

You brought up. You're the one who presumed that non film sources are allowed. I don't think they're needed.

You're making mighty assumptions about the whole orders thing. What TCW shows is that the clones don't take blind orders from anyone. They follow orders if they choose, but it takes unique commands to control them, as far as is shown in the movies or shows.

 

The point is to prevent Palpatine from being being able to control the narrative. By arresting him, they can stop the war since he cannot dictate orders from inside the Temple. They can oversee new elections and establish a peaceful transfer of power. If he is in custody, he cannot order the clones to do anything and not knowing about the biochips, the Jedi believe that they'd refuse orders from someone who is in custody. They have the advantage. And even if those loyal to Palpatine were present, all that would change is that they would probably be arrested as well.

The point is that if he officially declares the Jedi as criminals, then the Clonetroopers would obey Palpatine and not the Jedi, except for loyal ones like Cody, Gregor and Rex. They're not thinking Palpatine will order the clones to kill first.

And as to it being a trap, again I point out what Obi-Wan and Anakin said.

OBI-WAN: "I sense a trap."

ANAKIN: "Next move?"

OBI-WAN: "Spring the trap."

They're not worried about traps. They are reckless and arrogant. Also, the Council has opted to arrest Palpatine, before finding out that he is a Sith. So it was no secret that what was going to happen. Warning them wouldn't change anything. They still would fall victim to Order 66.

 

Mace is proven to be an idiot but his heart was in the right place.

I suppose technically Mace does leave one person behind who knows - Anakin. That doesn’t work very well.

Mace and the Jedi massively underestimate what a physically powerful threat Palpatine is. He kills four of the Jedi immediately. And then it’s unclear how well Mace actually is able to hold his own.

Then Anakin shows up - so the only other Jedi who knows what is going on has left the temple. There is no one left behind to warn the Jedi something like Order 66 could be coming.

Unfortunately I think Mace goes into this thinking he acted completely logically.

Four really strong Jedi fighters are surely a match for Palpatine. It’s probably overkill even. Palpatine is the same guy the Jedi have worked with for a decade after all. He’s no warrior. His evil is his plotting mind.

Why not tell anyone? Made doesn’t know in that moment who he can trust. If the Chancellor is the Sith Lord it’s likely he had spies in the Jedi Temple. Mace doesn’t want Palpatine to be tipped off.

The problem there is Palpatine already knows Anakin will tell Mace. It doesn’t exactly add up.

The biggest error is Mace thinking Palpatine will not be a physical threat.

 

In some ways, do we have to factor in that this is a movie, and that certain things are just more entertaining (in general) than other things?

What I mean is, suppose Mace met with the Council, and they agreed that while having a Sith in a position of such extreme power is indeed a very bad, very dangerous thing, there is no extreme urgency to "get him out of there this instant". They meet with key Senators, they meet with law enforcement (I assume there is law enforcement aside from the Jedi), they discuss how best to legally confront Palpatine, they discuss what legal steps must be taken in case he refuses to follow the law (again, assuming he has done anything ILLEGAL that they can prove - if they can eventually prove Palpatine is Sidious, and go into his machinations in manipulating both sides in the war, I am sure he's broken a number of laws. I am not sure him being a Sith is illegal per se [there is a Thread dedicated to that!] but playing both sides in the war sure would seem to be!). That could, certainly, eventually lead to a physical confrontation or a civil war (perhaps very short lived). That might be very entertaining, but I would argue that it would be very time consuming, and would be very different from what is "typically SW", something a lot closer to "Seven Days in May" (terrific movie - give it a look!). It might also lead to some problems with continuity because I feel like the OT at least implies that the Emperor comes to power NOT through a protracted civil war, and without being generally exposed as having been behind both sides in the war, or that he was a Sith. Thus, for one thing, the sense that the Senate has lingered on (steadily diminishing in power) until ANH. In other words, Mace CAN'T widely spread the word about who Palpatine is and what he has been up to, without raising a lot of OTHER questions. And that having Mace pursue the removal of Palpatine through some kind of (doubtless lengthy) legal process akin to "impeachment" raises a lot of storytelling challenges.

When I have gotten involved in discussions of the Prequels versus the OT, one thing I note is that there is a different tone to the Prequels, or maybe more fairly that there are parts of the PT that share the feel of the OT and parts that feel less similar. Fans discussing the OT never get wrapped up in things like laws or civil procedure. Hey, I get it, in the OT, the Empire is in power and rebels by definition don't sweat legal niceties (they reject the authority of the Empire) but I think it is more than that. It is that, in a Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers universe, you don't bring in a team of lawyers to figure out if you have the legal authority to stop Ming from taking over the "Galactic Senate". You grab some ray guns and hawkmen and you go to stop him. That's not a knock on the OT, nor a knock on the PT, it's just suggesting that the PT, by nature of the story it is trying to tell, and where it must end up (the OT) faces some sticky story-telling decisions.

PS - I have made similar arguments for why no one in the PT seems much troubled by having a slave army of genetically modified humans. GL needed the Emperor to have the means to take over in a heartbeat, for the military to just switch sides instantly, for there to be no civil war, no major conflict at the time of ROTS. One answer would have been to have the army be robots, of course, but GL went with the next best thing, "programmable humans". And because he needed that, no one raises many questions about it. In other words, the perceived needs of the story drive the narrative... for better or worse.

 

Palpatine has multiple secret agents who can inform him, and he has the full control of the Clones Intelligence Agency as well, and who knows what kind of sources he has more other than his own Force abilities. Remember, he had Dooku under his control before Dooku become a Sith lord, and then some of the Inquisitors who were former Jedi, includes the Grand Inquisitor, who was a Jedi Temple Guard, who was probably working for Palpatine before Order 66.

If Mace told anyone, Palpatine would definitely learn that via one of his sources, and prepare himself much better, or even escape before they could arrive, or create another scenario that would look like the Jedi are to blame for everything, and the senate will be ok with it whatever Palpatine says.

Same with waiting or calling for Obi-Wan and Yoda, Palpatine would learn that as well.

Palpatine doesn't see everthing that happens in the future, such as him losing to Mace Windu, was not something he expected, but he definitely ensures that he make the best plans before the things can happen.

For example, Palpatine also sensed that Maul was actually trying to kill or was going to kill Anakin, if Anakin went to Mandalore, and Palpatine prevented Anakin to go there alongside with Obi-Wan.