Characters The Jedi Way - Jedi Discussion Thread - Jedi and the Force in The Clone Wars

Hm... sex isn't necessarily attachment. A person can have a one-night-stand and go on to not see that person they had fun with without looking back. I think though if a Jedi would do that, they'd be careful with whom they had such a casual encounter, that the person would not think they'll get a more lasting relationship as a result of that particular night's enjoyment.

Mind you, I am not condoning sexual permiscuity among Jedi. Nor am I condemning it.

Just pointing out that sex and commitment are not always inclusive.

 

You make some good points, but I think I need to clarify what I meant by attachment. I don't mean it to refer just to someone's relationship with another person, but to the world itself. Desire is attachment because it is the opposite of accepting things for what they are; one is instead wanting something else. So in that sense, even without emotional attachment, a person would still experience attachment from a sexual encounter because of the physical desire that characterizes it.

Jedi, being people, would never be entirely free of physical attachment because desire keeps us alive (it tells us when to eat for instance). I think the Jedi discipline is in limiting attachment to only what is necessary. Therefore, sex wouldn't be completely taboo, but one would need to justify why exactly it was necessary.

 

Ah, okay. I understand what you mean now. Yeah, that's why I emphasized "if" in my post, because sex probably isn't in a Jedi's on the list of "Must do's". *Thinks of Sian Ny*

 

To say it in a typical Jack O'Neill manner:

uh...yeah.

This is a rather odd question. I've never even thought about it. I've honestly only halfway understood why the Jedi step back when it comes to love. But, as it is human nature (maybe alien too, who knows), humans need touch and love to survive.

God, this sounds so cheesy but it's true.

So I'm really hoping that the Force is not better than sex. Plus, I don't even think it's comparable.
The Force is spiritual, elemental emotional thing whereas sex is a feeling, touching, sometimes even needy thing.

See, it's getting complicated already.

 

Yes, it's true. You can't beat sex when it comes to making babies.

I suppose if you polled Jedi they would say that the Force was better than sex -- even though that's a bit like comparing speeders to bongos. But I think that Jedi would say that the Force was better than ANY physical pleasure, in the long term at least.

Good food, sex, singing, dancing.....I suppose if it's legal the Jedi Code does not forbid it....as long as it isn't an attachment.

Is the Force better than attachment? That's a little tougher. The Jedi Order DOES force its members to choose between the two (pun intended). Anakin got into trouble when he thought he could sneak in both.

I suppose the question might be rephrased: Which is more important, the Force or sex?

 

Obviously, for a Jedi the Force is more important. It's like their propulsion system -- without the Force a Jedi doesn't work. Can't exist.

Without sex -- well, life's is just a little more boring but the Jedi is still a Jedi with the Force. A working Jedi.

 

Not necessarily...

I think that the matter ultimately lies within the Jedi's view of attachment. There cannot be a viable balance between the Force and sex, at least from their perspective. No, the Old Order didn't discourage random wham-bams among the Jedi, but I have to wonder if those that chose to remain celibate were held in higher esteem and regard than those who chose to indulge, even occasionally, the urges of their hormonal curiosity.

 

If the Jedi did indulge -- and I'm certain a few of them did -- I doubt they'd talk about it much. Sort of like their personal dirty little secret.

 

I know this is kind of off the subject, but the thought of sex as an attachment also brings the question on the Force being a possible attachment...

As far as attachment is concerned, it could be said the Jedi are attached to the Force... Force addicts, in fact. I mean, think of how a Jedi would react if they suddenly could not feel the Force. Especially those who grew up in the Jedi way. Luke is an exception because he did not rely on the Force while growing up, so when he was on Myrkr and couldn't feel the Force because of the Ysilimiri (sp?) he was able to adapt fairly well. But what would happen to say, Yoda, Mace, or Anakin Skywalker, who were very strong in the Force. With the exception of Anakin, they were brought up to rely on the Force.

Strip them of the Force and the abilities that go with it, how would they react? Would they go crazy? Panic?

I could see Yoda trying to meditate even without the Force.

 

I think it would be like stripping someone off of a drug they've been using their entire lives.
The reaction would depend on the Jedi. Some would panic -- I'm guessing it depends on the age as well -- and some would keep a clear mind.
That's why I think it's important for Jedi to not always rely on the Force. Living beings have their instincts and they should be followed as well.

 

I think it would be less like a drug and more like losing one's sight or hearing or a limb that could not be replaced. They'd probably have the same spectrum of reactions that normal people have to becoming disabled.

 

I do love this topic. Bless the topic-maker.

It may depend on how the Jedi view sex: (1) a strictly biological function, useful only for procreation; (2) a form of emotional attachment, and a way for one being to connect with another; (3) a form of physical pleasure.

(1) If the Jedi don't feel the need to procreate, they won't see sex as a necessity. After the Empire, when there's a serious dearth of Force-sensitive folk, they might change their minds (easiest way to repopulate the Temple!). But, since I'm sure various forms of contraceptives exist in the GFFA, and since not every species will view sex in the same light...

(2) This is probably the most dangerous for the Jedi. The Force gives you a connection to all beings, while sex arguably gives you a connection with only a handful of people. Of course, the latter depends on how often and with whom, but for the sake of discussion let's assume we're not talking about a Samantha Jones. Therefore, for the Jedi, the Force should trump sex. The Force may be more invasive into your mind, but that can be controlled. Sex is more intimate, and for the Jedi that kind of attachment may interfere with their jobs - kind of a "spy who loved me" situation.

(3) I don't see what's so bad about this one. Seems to me that if the Jedi can handle living in a palace, they can handle sex for pleasure (in a responsible, safe way, of course). Plus, consider what their daily lives are like - no picnic. Some Jedi may seek comfort in meditation, while others seek comfort in sex, seeing it as an act that embodies life, passion, and creation, and a strong contrast to the pain they see around them. If they can separate themselves from pain and suffering in order to get the job done, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that they could separate themselves from emotional attachments in order to enjoy a little between-the-sheets time.

This is not to say the Temple would turn into a giant love nest (with everyone calling dibs on Obi-Wan, I'm sure). Probably you'd have, as always, a difference of opinion among the Jedi, with each Jedi practicing what works best for him.

 

I think this is correct. Looking at it as a drug, as something you should avoid depending on too much, seems to be based on the idea that the Force is something extra or unnatural. It's possible that it seems that way to people who don't sense it -- or who don't recognize it -- but the Jedi view, at least as expressed by Obi-Wan Kenobi, is that the Force is an intrinsic and all-pervasive part of life, the universe, and everything. (It is the 42. Ahem. Sorry.)

We're not talking about making sure you can do arithmetic without a calculator, or about depending on shoes to protect your feet. It's more like a singer losing the ability to hear (or to distinguish pitch, maybe) and trying to sing by feel.

Actually, what I picture for Myrkr's effect is something more like an inner ear problem, maybe with congestion. Your other senses are still there, but may seem muted or distorted, and you're getting absent or conflicting signals from a sense that usually supplements them; you feel off-balance and may end up putting too much or too little effort into things.

This is not to say that I think Jedi necessarily do or should neglect the other senses. I think it would make sense if they put some effort into careful observation and into paying attention to what the less acknowledged senses tell you. Some of those probably provide better metaphors for the Force than sight, too -- although that may depend on the sensory orientation of the particular Jedi.

 

Interesting point about the Jedi being 'attached' to the Force. I could imagine a room full of Jedi Masters arguing how to define 'attachment'. Or classes of Initiates being assigned to write essays. Or worse, yet, having that question turn up on a final exam, 'Define Attachement - 50 points'.

Perhaps Jedi are not technically 'attached' to the Force because Jedi do not have any 'ownership' of the Force?

I suppose that might be how Jedi define attachment, where one feels that they own or are dependent on something or someone, whether that's emotional or physical.

I agree that the Jedi would not ban physical pleasure. They'd never get anyone to stay in the Order if they did. They might just advise caution.

About procreation.......I really wonder if the Force always breeds true in families? If the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years then surely if Force-sensitives are attracted to each other they would have bred stronger ones? I really wonder if Force-sensitivity can just as easily inexplicably drop out of a family line as it can inexplicably pop up?

I think the EU would have been MUCH more interesting if Luke and/or Leia's children did not have an aptitude for being Jedi.

But getting back to the Force being like a drug - - I think that there might be some dependence, but only as much as people would be dependent on their sight or hearing. Perhaps a Jedi's talent with the Force could be similar to an artist's talent? An artist, having to choose, might easily choose their talent over sex, if they were forced to choose. I think that this is similar to the choice that Jedi make.

 

If the Force can be treated as a recessive trait, that would argue for the ability to actually manipulate it to be rare. Like red heads. However, in isolated groups like Dathomir (or for red heads, islands), recessive traits can become more prevalent.

It would explain how children of two Force-strong parents are likely to be Force-strong themselves.

Since, though, we're speaking of the genetics of hundreds or thousands of different species, it can't hardly be that simple. That would just be one component with environmental factors and the Force itself perhaps playing roles.

As for Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin, I believe Han Solo gets 'Force Points' or whatever they're calling them these days in the RPGs. They were called such in WEG. They worked like Luck Points for those who couldn't directly manipulate the Force but were too kriffing lucky or skilled to be completely untouched by it. Sort of like Han and some other characters have the Force, but in a dormant state. Han's psychology would completely prevent him from developing any active abilities with it. He doesn't believe and that's a huge factor in doing anything with it. Mind over matter, there is no spoon, etc. That could explain many others who may come from Force-sensitive lineages or bear children with the ability but do not express it themselves.

 

Han with 'Force Points'....sounds dangerous.

Interesting idea that a person might be Force sensitive, but because they don't accept the Force, they couldn't use it. That would certainly encourage the Jedi to train their members as young as possible.

However, I think that for some people with exceptional Force-potential, like Luke, I think it would be easier to show them their talents and get them to use and believe in the Force. They could get it right away. But for someone with marginal ability, it would be tougher.

 

Exactly. Even Luke failed when he believed that he could not do something with the Force, in TESB when he tried to raise his own x-wing from the swamp.

Someone on the margin of being able or not able to actively manipulate the Force probably never will if they aren't encouraged to believe that they can. That's where the mysticism that GL nearly ruined with midichlorians still maintains a hold. A character can have the midi-count and Force potential of Luke Skywalker, but be completely powerless if they do not believe.

 

Good point about Luke failing because he didn't believe in TESB. However, I don't think that anyone not believing in the Force is completely powerless. Anakin was clearly using the Force for his pod racing, but he attributed it to just having quick reflexes. Anakin believed he could race because he had. Not believing in his ability to race was never an issue for him. He didn't need to even know about the Force to do that.

I think that someone with even marginal Force sensitivity would still benefit from the heightened intuition and anticipation of their natural abilities. But I agree that they wouldn't be able to really used the Force without encouragement and training.

I groan about the midichlorines. I read somewhere that Lucas said that he had always planned on the midichlories explanation for the Force. If he had, he should have considered editing them out.

Actually, midichlorines don't bug me nearly so much as the fact that they have physical blood tests for them. The mystical and the material don't mix well. Of course, the midichlorines aren't the Force, just the markers and connection for it. I assume that detecting midichlories is as far technology of the GFFA has gotten in trying to quantify the Force microscopically. Obviously the Force can be quantified macroscopically just by measuring Jedi abilities.

Luke was able to detect life-forms from orbit on Dagobah. Perhaps the life-sensor technology is related to the midichlorine detector technology?

I suppose we can wonder if midichlorines have sex. Or do they reproduce asexually? Geeeeeez, can't you see a padawan asking, 'Master, where to baby midichlories come from?'

 

I've actually sort of pictured midichlorians like mitochondria.

Ages ago, mitochondria were their own lifeform, but eventually merged with other single-cell lifeforms and we now find them in our own cells as the powerhouses that produce energy. They have their own DNA and are inherited through the maternal line, as sperm cells do not have mitochondria, only ova.

I think I've kinda figured that midichlorians were a similar sort of thing, an extra bit hanging about in the body's cells. Except to get the concentration levels they discuss in the PT, perhaps cells can have more than one.

 

I disagree. How did the very first Force-user... not necessarily Jedi... learn to use the Force beyond the 'heightened intuition and anticipation of their natural abilities'? I would think necessity would breed invention so to speak. For survival, one with Force sensitivity may develop certain gifts and abilities that were specific to Force users. Now, I'm talking long before the Jedi came into existence.

Back on topic, like someone else mentioned, it seems that the strong Force presence that attracts midichlorians doesn't necessarily go from one parent who is sensitive into the offspring, but the infant is more likely to be sensitive if both parents are. That indicates whichever gene gives the predisposition to Force strength is recessive. As far as the Force sensitivity suddenly showing in an offspring in parents whose families have no known Force awareness, just think about Asians who mostly have black hair and brown eyes, and all of a sudden a child with blue or green eyes show up. Assuming the mother did not have an affair with a caucasion, you have to assume that somewhere along the line of both families there was someone with blue or green eyes, and that recessive gene just wasn't apparent because they everyone they bred with had brown eyes. It doesn't mean that gene wasn't passed on down the line though.

 

Didn't they say that the first people to discover the force were these group of Sages, Warriors, Scientists, and whatnot?

 

Where was this said?

 

There is some early Jedi history in the Jedi vs. Sith book, but it doesn't really specify Sages, Warriors and Scientists and such. It talks about early Force-users who discovered it and found out that it was galactic-wide and spread out in the galaxy to find others who could use it.

Actually, the whole Force-heredity thing bugs me just as much as the midichlorine detectors. If a specific gene for Force-sensitivity could be pinned down then after tens of thousands of years of intergalactic travel they would have figured out to breed it into everyone. I'm guessing that no one has ever found a gene or set of gene reliably connected with it. Ii doesn't seem likely that they haven't looked.

Surely Jedi and Sith would have been motivated (especially Sith) to breed stronger Force-users. That's why I think that it may run in families for a few generations (like the Skywalkers), but it inevitably drops out (just as it suddenly pops up), defeating any attempts to breed for it. But that's just the back story I use -- I've got to work that into a fic someday.

 

Maybe for Sex, Some Jedi view it as a necessary thing. We know with Ki-Adi-Mundi that he had a couple honor wives because Cerean birthrates were very low.

 

I read that about Ki-Adi Mundi. I suppose if its just about procreation then there's no attachment and it would be OK. I suppose that if sex is taken just about biology and hormones with no attachments then there wouldn't be any problem with it for Jedi. I assume that the Force is still better than sex even with attachments.