Characters The Jedi Way - Jedi Discussion Thread - Jedi and the Force in The Clone Wars

He might have meant possession as in attachment type possession, like what he was having with Padme, not necessarily physical possessions. They were talking about Love there, so it's hard to make that argument that they have no possessions at all, taken in context. I find it hard to believe that the Jedi would not allow their own personal space, especially given how grand the Temple interior was. The Jedi decorated with style with those massive columns and beautiful carpet. For the most part, I have Master/Padawan apartments. Knights can have their own space, and Initiates generally share rooms with one or two others.

 

I don't really think of the Jedi using droids to do their cooking and cleaning as being lazy. It just allows them to work full time on being Jedi, training, meditating, studying, lightsaber stuff, missions, whatever. And I actively look for places to put droids in my fics; that makes them feel more Star Wars-y to me. Whenever I send anyone to the med-center they're by droids, too, since that's what you see in the films.

I don't know HOW to fit the pre-prequel EU stuff into what we got about prequel Jedi. So, I don't even try. I really don't know what distinguishes a Correllian; they look just like everyone else and the whole Correllian Jedi thing doesn't really match up with the prequel.

I make the assumption that possessions are allowed if they're something you can wear and/or conveniently carry, and especially if it's something useful. I don't know if Jedi would have rings. The clearly allow some personal adornment, but I would think that a ring would be uncomfortable to wear while lightsaber fighting and no one would want to stop to take that off.

And I agree the Jedi Temple is quite grand, though not overdone. But the furnishings in it are very minimal, so I picture that for the private rooms as well. I think that the grand, open spaces are public and the smaller intimate ones are private, though I always picture the living spaces with high ceilings.

When Anakin is talking about love with Padme, he's just trying to work his way around the rules. If he's not allowed to have attachments, then Anakin will just re-define what an attachment is.

But I think it's really interesting that an educated senator like Amidala thought that Jedi were forbidden to love. That says a lot to me about what their public reputation is, that their personal lives are very minimal and disciplined.

And I agree that the Jedi have to have some kind of attachments, since without them they would never be able to keep the Order together. I suppose for things like that they would define 'no attachments' as being able to let go of something.

So, to still be Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda would have expected themselves to let go of the old Jedi Order and move on. I suppose they had to in exile, but think it probably took a few years. Even for Yoda.

 

Going off-topic ...how would the "no attachment" policy be handled in a post-ROTJ New Jedi Order (setting aside the EU here)? It's fairly obvious that Luke would be unlikely to enforce the policy for himself or any of the latter-day padawans. It's not out of the realm of possibility that some students might decide to pursue this path as a means to improving their connection with the Force, even going so far as to be celibate.

For me, the Old Order's view of love was peculiar. Passionate attachment was forbidden, but they didn't have a specific prohibition against having physical relations (not with each other, I guess). Wouldn't it seem slightly obvious to the masters that it's difficult to have sex without forming some kind of attachment to someone at some point?

 

I always thought that no possessions meant just that. I was thinking more that they were given their clothing (they did have some choice) but it wasn't really 'theirs' per se. Same with furnishings and decorations. Nothing that they could claim to be theirs alone. Of course, that idea went out the window with AOTC when the Jedi appeared to have specific clothing from their homeworlds.

The only true thing that could be considered possessions would be the lightsabers. I know Qui-Gon had a rock but he wasn't that possessive of it if he gave it to Obi-Wan.

I also always thought of their rooms as minimal - enough to see to their needs but little else. Their focus didn't seem to be on 'their' comfort but toward others. I could even see the possibility that their rooms were more like hotel rooms in that each time they returned they were given a different room depending on availability.


leiamoody - some time ago there was a discussion about this very topic. Some people claimed that you can have sex without any kind of attachment, that it's a biological function. I don't see it but that's just me. Perhaps they can have sex as long as they let go of their attachments afterwards.

 

leiamoody: therre's no telling how the 'no attachments' clause would be handled post-ROTJ. Luke had one sentence of instruction form Yoda about reviving the Jedi Order, 'Pass on what you have learned.' Presumably that means that Luke is make all the decisions.

Luke has positive proof that attachments can be big trouble. Vader lured him to Bespin just by capturing Leia, Han and Chewie. Even on the other end of the galaxy Luke could tell they were being. Perhaps this is one reason that the 'no attachments' rule evolved? Jedi with emotional attachments are vulnerable through the people they love. And if Jedi are committed to upholding justice, then that kind of occupation invites enemies to come after you.

But Luke will likely have to train adults in the Force. They will have attachments, so they're going to have to work things out.

dianethx: The 'hotel' concept is interesting for the Jedi Temple. That would absolutely enforce the 'no possessions' rule, since they have to carry everything they have.

I'm more inclined toward Jedi staying in fixed place, just to save everybody the trouble of finding people. If everyone was in a different room all the time, looking for them would be annoying.

And I don't know how anyone has sexual relations without having some kind of emotional attachments anymore that you can have a one-on-one teacher/apprentice relationship for years without any kind of attachment either. But I'm absolutely sure that the Jedi would NOT forbid sexual relationships. Celibacy is not one-size-fits-all. I'm sure that physical relationships are discouraged because they often lead to strong emotional attachments, but not because of the sex.

Perhaps a relationship is not considered an 'attachment' if the parties are willing to part and let go of it? When a padawan is knighted are the former master and padawan expected to spend time apart to prove that they are not attached to each other?

 

I would think that they would send out the padawan on his/her/its own after knighting. However, we don't see that in ROTS since obviously Obi-Wan and Anakin do missions together a lot.... unless they still aren't sure about Anakin and want Obi to keep an eye on him. We'll probably find out more in the new Clone Wars movie. Maybe even see more of the Temple - I hope.

As for finding someone whose room keeps changing, maybe their commlinks have a come hither button or a GPS system so they just have to say the person's name and they'll get a signal as to their location. It's all speculation.

 

Hmm... a 'come hither' button sounds a bit too sexy for a jedi. The GPS system sounds intriguing... kind of like the marauder's map in Harry Potter.

Seriously though, I think having to possibly change rooms every time you go on a mission makes things way too complicated.

 

Yeah, coming back to a different room every time you leave the Temple for something sounds like a lot more work than just letting people keep their own room all the time. And I suppose there are some Jedi devices in the Temple that would do for a 'marauder's map'.

And I've always assumed that Jedi rooms are more or less the same. You don't get a larger room unless you're actually.....larger.

I was listening to the SW radio drama and there's an interesting bit from Obi-Wan when he takes Luke to his hut.


LUKE: "Nice home you got here. Pretty well, hidden, too."

BEN: "It has all that I require. Shelter and comfort without a lot of clutter. I prefer to live simply and to keep around me only the things that I prize highly. That is part of the Jedi's creed."


Hmmmmmm, even back then Lucas meant for Jedi to be somewhat monastic and live simple lives. Of course, other dialog in the scene imply that Obi-Wan had more than one student, but that was before Obi-Wan's age changed with the prequels.

 

In The Phantom Menace novelization, it mentions that Obi-Wan had been Qui-Gon Jinn's apprentice for twenty years and if Obi-Wan was about twenty-six, that would put him at age six to become an apprentice.

Yet, the Jedi Apprentice series disputes this when it mentions that Obi-Wan was almost thirteen.

My question is, how young is too young to become a Jedi apprentice?

A friend and I were recently having this discussion. I'm trying to decide for a current story I'm trying to work out.

In one of my favorite fanfictions ever, Obi-Wan became a padawan at age four to explain the TPM novelization. In other stories, I've seen it vary from age 10 to age 13. So is there a certain line about how young a padawan can be accepted? There are things in their culture (like Obi-Wan being responsible for his actions in getting involved in a war, Amidala being elected ruler at age 14) that are not present in our own culture, so it's hard sometimes to find that balance to determine what ages are good for apprentices. Jedi Initiates are different in skill level and some might have the maturity at eight that others do not even at age thirteen.

 

I would think that it would work on a case by case basis. Like you said, some children mature faster than others.

 

I would think that it depends on the missions they go on or if they go on any at all. Taking a 6 year old to listen to boring politicians hammer out a treaty doesn't sound like a good idea. Dangerous missions, too, don't sound like good ideas for young kids...

I would think an apprentice would have to be able to think and deal with things on their own just in case the master got lost or killed or something. So I thought 13 was actually a good age to be taken by a master. Give them the basics and then refine it in apprenticeship.

 

I agree. I can't imagine any child younger than 10 to be mature enough to handle going on a real mission.

 

Well, in 'Epistles of a Master' Obi-Wan is only six. Very cute.

I have heard of three possible ages for initiates being selected as padawans.

- Obi-Wan's age in TPM minus 20 years in the novelization; about 5 or 6.
- Supposedly Lucas thought that Obi-Wan had been Qui-Gon's apprentice since he was 8 or 9, Anakin's age. But I don't know what interview he said it in.
- Maximum age of 13, as in the JA books.

I often use the JA timeline, but it does conflict with the TPM novelization. One of those multi-dimensional quirks of the EU. So, that means to me that it's not clear at all.

If I assume that masters select children as young as 5 or 6, then I assume that this means that they act as teacher/parent to the child, who is schooled at the Temple until he/she is old enough to start going on missions. The master would still go on missions alone or with other Jedi, the regular day job I suppose.

One thing that I do assume, but it's tough to put it in a fic without a lot of boring exposition, is that all children in the GFFA would be considered genius by mundane Earth standards, who mature early and have photographic memories, where all the children really are above-average. That's the only way I can explain Anakin and Padme, who are exceptional by GFFA standards. Anakin has the Force and Padme was selected from probably a whole planet-wide program to find future rulers.

 

Yeah, it's really confusing that we only have a few scraps of infomation on the Jedi Temple.

 

I suppose it could be considered good and bad that we know so little about what's inside the Jedi Temple.

The Temple is big, so we wonder what's inside.

But without any 'canon' about what's in it, that leave room for making things up that we like.

If some 'official' source came up with a map or whatever about the Temple, I could easily disagree with it. Isn't the next SW video game possibly going to have a level or so of the Jedi Temple? And if so, would we consider the floor plan of a video game 'canon'?

It does not look like the upcoming SW cartoon will be set in the Jedi Temple at all but out amidst the Clone Wars, so I don't expect much information to come from that. At least about the Temple, though there could be more Jedi stuff.

 

Well, I always go back to the "Complete Locations" book first to see if they had some information in it and then I might make it up anyway. Who's going to know? Lucas? My readers? I write AU anyway most of the time. So if I have dormatories or single rooms or bunkbeds or floating mattresses, I can always say that it's AU.

 

My process is this:

1. Do I know it?

2. If not, check if wookieepedia knows it.

3. If not, make it up.

 

yep, that's what I do... with the addendum that even if I think I know it, i confirm it with the wookieepedia... just in case I dreamt I knew it.

 

ding ding ding! WE HAVE A WINNER!

 

I do that, except I add the step of looking through my Essential Guides. Today I found something in the New Essential Chronology that I wanted to use to add a bit of "reality" to a story. Those guides have been well worth the investment, and the newer editions have some lovely art work.

 

Aaaaaaaaah, I use a version of that plus a Step 4:


4. If it is in woookieepedia or another reference and I don't like it, make it up.


Other references I have used are:

- complete visual dictionary
- complete locations book
- SW 365 Days (production stuff mostly, but it's interesting to see what they were thinking when they built things and the picture of the 4 guys working on the Jedi Temple model is funny -- though one or two of them might be women - since they're bent over their work it's hard to tell)
- Essential Chronology
- Essential Guide to Planets
- Essential Guide of Aliens
- Ben Burtt's language book
- The Jedi vs. Sith book though it's new and I haven't used it much


EDIT: "floating matresses". Hmmmmmmmmm, never thought of that. But since Padme had a simple, grounded bed, I would think that the Jedi would use something simple, too. But I suppose there could be special circumstances for that.

 

Staying on the same topic, the Jedi Temple, I was wondering a few things.....

According to the Complete Locations book the Jedi Temple pre-dates the city around it. So, I assume a few things.

- There's nothing under the Temple that doesn't belong to the Temple
- There's more of the Temple than you see underneath.

So, I was wondering how much Temple is there? Is the Jedi Temple like an iceberg, where you only see the top 10% poking up above the skyline? Or maybe they just have ordinary basements?

On a related note: the long shots of the Temple evolves from TPM to ROTS. It sort of looks like the Temple was allowed to expand beyond it's usual boundaries with ship docks and other support stuff for the Clone Wars. I'm sure that didn't make the neighbors happy.

 

I've always assumed that the Temple did extend all the way to the ground.

What we see in the movies is the twilight of the Jedi Order. For the size of the Temple, the amount of Jedi at the beginning of the Clone Wars must have had a lot of space in the building per person. Centuries earlier, there would have been a lot more Jedi, more than enough to fill the Temple. It also gives a reason for them to have such a large chunk of valuable Coruscant property.

As for what's beneath the general skyline, I'd assume storage, sewage treatment, and other things to make the Jedi relatively self-sufficient. Although they'd have to ship in enough food to feed themselves, I think they would try as hard as they could to grow as much stuff as possible. And the storage could be for anything - clothes, furniture, etc. With the size of the Archives shown in AotC, there has to be a ton more put away somewhere, because I don't think even that large a room could hold everything.

 

Anne, floating mattresses was a joke but I was thinking that maybe they hung hammocks. But on the other hand, the Temple is so huge, I don't see why each person couldn't have their own space.


I also thought the Temple went all the way down to bedrock and were pretty self-contained. In the ROTS book, they closed up the Temple when they thought they were going to be under siege. They'd have to have supplies and water sources and other things if they were going to endure a siege at all.

 

Like others, I think it goes all the way to the ground. After all, Coruscant wasn't always so built-up. It would have been easy to build it so big and make it mostly self-sufficiant (though that would have been easier if there was actually arable land around them, as I suspect there was in the beginning). As the planet became more citified, I think the Jedi became less self-sufficiant, even if they would have preffered not to be.

Secondly, the cutways we have don't show the living quarters. I think they're below the skyline (at least most of them). The more senior members of the Order probably have higher quarters, and thus a view.

Third, if there's a need to go to the underbelly of Coruscant, there's probably a few entrances and exits at those levels, but they're kept highly secret to keep inquisitive Initiates and Padawans from exploring where they really shouldn't.

In some ways, I almost think of the Temple as a city within a city (somewhat like the Vatican, but not exactly).