Characters The Jedi Way - Jedi Discussion Thread - Jedi and the Force in The Clone Wars

Aaaaaah, but in the GFFA floating mattresses are such a viable possibility, though not a likely one for Jedi. Still, it would be an interesting thing to find in a fic in a swanky GFFA hotel.

I think it would be simpler all around if each Jedi had their own space. Just trying to mix and match all those different species could be a nightmare otherwise.

I remember that from the ROTS book, too. I groan to think about it. The Jedi had such control over their Temple, but no one though they might need a secret emergency exit??? One would think that the temple was old enough to have a few decent secret passages out. But I guess that was just another sign of the pervasive arrogance that Yoda (of all people) complained about.

I'm more inclined to think that all the Jedi get basically the same room, regardless of rank. Differences might be allowed for the demands of different species. Some might need special humidity or temperatures or whatever. Another thing that would discourage roommates. And does Yoda have a room with regular ceilings? Or something smaller? I'm sure he would have furniture to fit his size.

In the 'Star Wars 365 Days' book the meditation rooms in ATOC are referred to as 'Jedi Quarters'. But that could just be what the set designers called it.

Actually, that's not a bad analogy though unlike the Vatican, I doubt that the Jedi ever controlled more territory around the Temple than what they needed. The Temple might be a state within a state. A crime committed within the Temple might be handled just with the Jedi Code and not Republic law.

I think that any large building on Coruscant would have to be self supporting, keeping track of everything it takes in and produces. Since the whole planet is nothing but city, then all structures would be responsible for keeping the planet's ecology going.

 

I believe that the room where Yoda counsels Anakin in Sith after his vision was Yoda's private mediatation room and that had windows (that designation might be in the novelization, which I don't have handy). Of course, I could be wrong. Other than windows or height in the Temple itself, I pretty much think all the room are the same, with variations for species.

Yeah, I meant Vatican City itself, not the territory the Church gained and lost over the centuries. I usually forget the Vatican had a lot more land than it does now, and I was raised Catholic! I definitely think that any crime within the Temple is kept within the Temple. After all, 99% of the galaxy doesn't have to deal with misusing the Force or other things that are unique to the Jedi.

 

In my personal universe (which is not always canon), most crimes that touch upon the Force are handled by the Jedi, at least in some respect. Why? Because they know best how to deal with it.

As Indy said, the galaxy for the most part does not use the Force, and if they're aware of its capabilities, often hear the stories instead of the truth. So if someone attacked someone else using the Force, the Jedi would be called in to handle the arrest. They might not have anything to do with the trial and sentencing, but they would be involved in the periphery. Even with the existence of Force collars and Force suppressers, it would be easier to have someone there capable of handling an unforeseen situation than just relying on technology. Holding Force sensitives prisoner can be a real pain.

Conversely, I think if there were any problems within the Jedi, the Order would try keep it within the Temple. If there were any major crimes, say murder, I think the Republic Judiciary would want to get involved. They'd have to demonstrate that not even a Jedi is above the law.

 

If there were any crime between members of the Jedi Order in the Temple then I then I think the Republic wouldn't say out of it.

I wonder what the legal status of the Jedi Temple is? Is it like the Vatican? Or an Indian reservation? In that case, any crime inside the Temple would be handled by the Order, though I'm not sure what they'd do. I suppose there just isn't much stuff like that going on. One gets the impression that they usually don't have problems like that.

I like the idea of Jedi being called if there was problem with a non-Jedi using the Force. That would get into who non-Jedi Force-users might be. There is some stuff in the EU, but I haven't read any of it.

 

Stupid question unrelated to the ongoing topic...but would there be a specific group of diplomats among the Jedi? A Jedi Diplomatic Corps, one could call it. I know there was a category created for the Roleplaying Games called "Jedi Consular" that dealt with those sort of interactions, but it wasn't a primary duty for that group.

 

Oh not a stupid question at all.

Unfortunately, I don't really know if the Jedi had any kind of diplomatic corps or not. I suppose it would make sense for them to have diplomatic specialists. Did they do anything like that in any of the EU books or comics? Obi-Wan would have been a specialist, since he's 'the negotiator', but he could have gotten that reputation also by being on the Council.

That could also bring up the whole question about whether or not Jedi have specialties in general. I know they have healers in the EU books, but I don't know about others.

I speculate the Master Dooku specialized in diplomatic things that kept him away from the Jedi Temple all the time. Thus explaining his political connections that he used as a Sith Lord and why Obi-Wan didn't meet him until AOTC. But that's just a theory for background material for a fic.

 

In the KOTOR and pre-Ruusan eras, the Order did have specializations. During the prequels, it isn't as clear. I think during the prequel-era, the Jedi themselves chose a path that their talents indicated would be best for them. I haven't read a lot of the EU stuff from this period, so I'm just going based off what I read, the movies, and a little bit of research in the Wookieepedia.

Ardavenport, that theory makes sense to me. It explains quite a bit about Dooku.

Oh, speaking of the Wookieepedia and our previous discussion, in the "Judicial Department" entry, it states that the Jedi Order technically became a part of the Judicial branch after the Ruusan reformations.

 

I don't know if the Jedi are 'part' of the Judicial Department in the Republic. I think the have autonomy that no other government department would have. But for my fics, I assume that the Jedi Temple is often assigned missions through the Judicial department - sort of like the Galactic attorney general's office.

In 'Cloak of Deception' Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are introduced into the story with Obi-Wan flying a ship that has Judicial Department markings. So, I assume that the Jedi share some resources with the Judicial Department.

Related to the Temple, I wonder how the Jedi keep it running. I assume that they do not take any reward for their services. In fact, it might be in the Jedi Code that Jedi are not allowed to. My guess is that the Jedi are funded directly through the Senate. Oddly enough I think that Chancellor Palpatine was very supportive of the budget for the Jedi, especially during the Clone Wars. What better why to throw them off the trail that he was the Sith Lord?

 

According to starwars.com

In the final era of the Republic, the Jedi Knights operated out of the Judicial Department, under the office of Supreme Chancellor.

However, starwars.com had changed it because I distinctly remember it saying that it was part of the Judicial Dept. a couple of years back when I was researching for one of my stories. After all, they can't operate out of thin air. They need funding and some kind of legal standing in order to do the things they were doing.

 

So, in other words, the Jedi are feds? *whacks away plot bunny*

If they're part of the Judicial Department, the best analogy to make would be that they're the GFFA's version of the FBI. It makes sense: they have special training, people who do nothing but research and analyze, etc. They wouldn't have the same scope of jurisdiction, and definitely wouldn't do things the FBI itself does, but it's the same general idea. (Quite possibly they're a very odd combination of the FBI and the State Department, given the scope of their missions.)

 

I assume that the Jedi Temple, and the surrounding area to a certain area serves as a "small city" for the Jedi.

In the temple, i'm sure they have the basic amenities to get the job done. Rooms for washing one's clothes and robes, a massive dining facility where they eat, and recreational things like a pool or training rooms where Jedi can hone their skills or relax right after a mission.

General upkeep of the temple is done by the Jedi, or outside help is contracted to do it, such as with the temple security force.

They appear to grow their own food in little gardens throughout the temple, or have it imported from other points in the galaxy, or they take enough credits with them when they are on a mission.

Now rooms, I'm a little hazy on. To me, I assume that younglings stay in a certain Wing or floor of the Temple, and it is supervised by a Master. Who knows, they could have 2-4 to a room, depending on certain species' needs.

When they are Chosen by a Knight as a padawan, they may move on to the next floor/wing which deals with Knights/Padawan teams, since they are spending what will hopefully be their first few years training together, the teacher and the students.

Jedi Masters/Padawans are moved up one floor/wing, for obvious reasons. Since Masters have already trained a Padawan or 2, they know what to do and how to do it.

Council members have their own special wing, and the biggest rooms to suit their needs.








Now this may conflict with what you all's ideas of what goes into the temple, so this is just my opinion.

 

I think that there are different interpretations for the Jedi Temple for everyone. I generally preface mine with the disclaimer that it is the interpretation that I use in my fics. That's what they're all for.

Generally, the real reason for me wanting to map out the Jedi Temple is that it just makes it easier for me to write a fic. Even if I never have any scenes with Obi-Wan going down the hall to the utility room to find the droid to fix the drain in his fresher, it's easier for me to work out what the characters are going to do or say if I've filled in the environment around them.

I like the idea of the Jedi Temple being a "small city". The Jedi do seem to be somewhat self-contained. This would have to be the case with a lot of large buildings on Coruscant anyway. If the whole planet is city then some parts of it have to be devoted to maintaining/recycling/renewing air/water/solids in the environment.

Oh, that plot bunny has already reproduced since someone did write a SW/X-Files crossover with Mulder as a Jedi.

But I don't think of the Jedi as being like the FBI since I think the Republic already has some law enforcement department. The Jedi seem to be able to operate at high diplomatic levels, but also law enforcement as well. On top of all that they're a religious organization; that was established in the first movie when Tarkin told Vader, "You are all that is left of their religion." That makes their status very odd indeed.

I suppose for budgetary purposes, the Jedi are a 'special project'? Or possibly contractors under the Supreme Chancellor? One notable thing about the Jedi Order is that it pre-dates the Republic. So, whatever they are, they're a very entrenched in whatever niche the occupy with the Republic government.

You mean someone is actually revising that stuff?

Really, it seems to me sometimes that they just throw things up there and forget about them.

I guess I have trouble with thinking of the Jedi as a 'part' of any government department in the Republic anyway. It really looks like they have more autonomy than that.

 

I remember reading that as well, dianethx! And I also seem to remember it in one of the prequel books, but I can't remember which one.

As for Jedi autonomy, since the Order does predate the Republic, I usually assume that there's something in the Republic Constitution that allows for the kind of things the Order does. Following that line of thought, the Senate "reformed" the Republic after Ruusan, and therefore changed how the Order was allowed to operate. People feared the powers of the Jedi, and wanted to bring it under closer regulation.

 

I assume that there is some sort of contract or something within the republic's constitution that allows for the Jedi to operate: for helping to provide insight and help with interplanetary matters, the Jedi are allowed to have their Temple on coruscant, as well as have all those amenities we see. Because, I'm pretty sure that they have the most extensive archives in the galaxy, as well as some of the most advanced technology the galaxy has ever seen.

Think of it like our own Military and other federal agencies: Every year, the US approves a budget for them every year, and in return, they provide defense for our country by using that money on computer systems, vehicles like Tanks and Fighter Jets and cruisers, among other things.

 

This is more of what I was going for with the "Jedi as feds" thing. Special project sounds like a very good classification.

Furthermore, the GFFA's government is not ours. Different "agencies" may very well have more leeway than their equivelant here. Secondly, the Jedi are pretty much considered to be uncorruptable (in the political sense), so they may not have (or need) as much oversight. They are odd, and it's hard to talk about them being a part of the government because they don't fit into our Earth-concieved boundaries.

 

I agree, special projects sound like the right classification for the Jedi, whatever that is.

Since the conversation has shifted on its own I thought I'd make it official.........so how do the Jedi support themselves?

Individual Jedi are forbidden attachments and possessions, but the Jedi Order obviously has the keep things running. How do they do it? And what does the Jedi Code say about what possessions the Jedi Order may have?

Obviously, the Jedi and the Temple are supported by the Senate in the old Republic. And are supplied with all the necessities they need for upholding justice in the galaxy. My guess is that the Jedi are very cost-effective compared to the usual law enforcement options and they are basically limited to the number of Force-sensitive candidates they can get.

It is likely that the relationship between the Jedi and the Republic is in the constitution, but is there something in the Jedi Code that says that the Order has to have something in writing about their relationship with any body that supports them?

 

I assume that before the whole Ruusan conflict, Jedi had much more free reign than the Jedi of 1000 BBY to 19 BBY. They had families and relationships. Also, they got potential Jedi anyway they could, not just from getting them in infant stage. They actually fought in wars and defended the republic however they could. They also probably possesses many more things.

After Ruusan however, the Jedi did a complete 360. No longer did they have attachments/relationships except for teacher/student. No longer did they recruit from multiple sources; unless you were an infant and possessed a high midichlorian count, then a Jedi you will never be. They disbaned their armies and did many other things as well.

Now, I assume that the senate decided to keep them as peacekeepers, and they agreed on a few things; Stop Intergalactic conflicts from turning into full scale wars, and we'll (the Senate) will give you a high position in the senate as a advisory board, and we'll also help pay for your temple and other facilities.

 

I'll tell you who's funding the Jedi lifestyle - the taxpayers!! And it all goes into that cushy palace those wizards live in, with their fancy glowsticks and droids and three square meals a day and fountains and gardens. Hmph.

Seriously - the Jedi may live very simple lives, with few possessions and attachments, and lives of suffering and whatnot, but they live in a palace. They don't get directly paid by the people they help, so the money has to come from somewhere (the Republic). They get basic food and shelter and clothing, which I imagine is more than most folks on Coruscant get. I've always wondered how the Jedi dealt with that kind of apparent hypocrasy. Maybe the harsh rules make up for the awesome crib?

Clearly, I am unbiased on this matter.

 

And not to mention that they have the most advanced computers and complete archives in the galaxy.

 

I'm with Jade. They live simply but in a palace. They get free food, clothing, shelter while others have to scramble for a living. I can certainly understand the people resenting the Jedi. From a distance, it looks like ivory tower wizards who have the good life. Yes, they lay their lives on the line but so do a lot of others without the same payback.

 

I'm actually considering writing a fic about this very topic, from a citizen's POV. (It's actually the ploy bunny I mentioned earlier. It just won't go away.)

Of course, the Jedi rebuttal is: we live as simply as possible, but we need the information and space to properly train and be prepared for the mission.

The truth is probably in between. Yes, the Jedi need training space. But do they really need a huge entryway that just serves to waste space? Do they really need all those statues or huge windows or tiled floors? Do they really need an interior garden with a ton of fountains? Probably not. They have the best of everything, but profess to need little. There is a definite bit of hypocrasy there. The only people they have to justify it to is the Senate, during a budget review, and all they have to do is point to their mission track record. It probably ends the discussion right there, if there was even one in the first place.

 

I'll take the Jedi side then.

1) They draw the members of the Order from all classes and species, so there is going to be sympathy for Jedi from all sectors of society.

2) There aren't very many Jedi, so the most anyone ever even hears about them is in news holos where they're doing heroic good things like capturing space pirates or defeating tyrants on small moons.

3) Large as the costs of Jedi Temple might be, I'll bet it's a fraction of what those over-dressed, over-fed senators spend next door. Ships and equipment and archives are at least practical things that can be seen in action every time a Jedi does a good deed. High class dinners and sundry other luxuries at the senate would get so much more attention, the Jedi Temple is probably a small item on the Republic budget.

4) Jedi also look modest, have a reputation for being incorruptible, but still have a great cool factor with special powers and lightsabers.


EDIT: I've pondered Obi-Wan comparing his life on Tatooine with his life as a Jedi and realizing how good he had it even though he had no possessions then and on Tatooine he apparently has his hut and all kinds of other stuff. Not needed to have possessions is a stupendous luxury that many might not recognize -- including Republic taxpayers.

 

Ah, but if the Jedi look so modest, people might be suspicious that they are just trying to hide something...

 

That air of mystery that the Jedi have can work for them (making them more attractive) or against them (making them look more suspicious). But the Jedi would have their supporters in the Senate, and it would probably be easy to defend the expense for them by pointing out that there are more caterers working for the Senate than there are Jedi in the Temple or a similar budgetary comparisons.

Compared to other items in a galactic budget the Jedi are probably a relatively small one. My guess is that they also have very good cost controls and their budget doesn't increase any faster than inflation (except when the Republic is at war and then everyone's expenses are out of whack anyway). And since the Jedi have been there from the beginning of the Republic, they'll be a pretty entrenched item in the budget.

 

Oh, I agree.

A fair portion of the budget would probably go to utilities (power, sewage, water, etc.). One could even stretch that to include food (Coruscant being what it is), even if the Jedi do try to make themselves as self-sufficient as possible. The other parts would be Temple upkeep, service to the small fleet of ships they have, and necessary goods (clothing, etc.). I don't think the Jedi would draw a salary, but they could possibly have a very small yearly stipend determined by rank.

There's probably also a section of the budget (either Senate or Jedi, haven't been able to figure out which) set aside to fund the missions. Qui-Gon had a credit amount issued to him in TPM. Probably the Republic, as the Jedi work under that name. But would that be from the Judicial Department budget, then? Or the Senate, as that's who the Order appears to be directly answering to in RotS.

As for suspicions of and about Jedi, I would think it varies planet to plant and person to person. Those people who have come in contact with Jedi, who have been affected positively in some manner, would be far more willing to accept them. People impacted negatively, as well as those who have only heard the stories, would be far more skeptical. It's all perspectives and prejudices. What is the truth?