ST The Last Jedi clarification thread

Luke wasn't a hero anymore. He was hardly anything like his former self, and he simply had no desire to do anything that might help anyone. He appeared on Crait only to apologize to Kylo Ren; in spite of Poe's comments, I really don't think he cared whether the Resistance survived. His only concern was trying to assuage his intense guilt.

Nevertheless, the story seems to have gone out across the galaxy, transformed into something wondrous and inspirational. Maybe the subtext is that heroes aren't really heroic; it's all about the way they're perceived.

 

This is all wrong.

 

I thought Leia left them on the floor for Kylo as a symbol she's moved on from their family (leia, han, ben). He killed Han and now nothing is left. Had she left them on a table with care the message would be different. They're on the floor as though thrown away. Kylo threw their family away and she will no longer wait for him. There is no longer anything to restore. He is on his own.

(Also agree she knew they're not real. If they were I think she would have kept them.)

 

So... he was still a hero, significantly similar to his former self, had desires to help others, and appeared on Crait to help the Resistance?

In The Last Jedi?

 

He went into exile to prevent his past failure from being repeated. This is because he cared about the rest of galaxy and thought it would be the most helpful. He appeared on Crait to help the resistance escape and to give the galaxy the legend that Rey said it needed. It was pretty cut and dry.

 

He thought it would be the most helpful to refuse to lift a finger to help anyone? He appeared on Crait to help the Resistance escape, then did nothing to help them escape? That's awful writing, and while your point of view is certainly a valid one, a lot of people actually really liked the movie, myself included. In fact, I thought it seemed rather well-written, and a lot of professional film critics seemed to think so too. So I really don't think it's quite that cut and dry. There's room for interpretation. (More room than I thought, apparently, since before your post I would have said that the fallen hero angle was presented quite clearly).

 

Fallen hero for sure. But still doing what he thought was best for the galaxy.

His appearance on Craig bought the resistance enough time to escape. I'm not sure why you're choosing to dismiss Poe's expositional dialog.

 

Good question. Poe's expositional dialog was wonderful in that it showed how much he had grown as a person. He had never met Luke at all, so his dialog couldn't logically reveal Luke's motivation. It revealed Poe's own state of mind. So, I'm not ignoring it. I'm just taking it for what it's worth, which is quite a bit.

The reason the Resistance was able to escape was because Rey rescued them, which she would have done regardless of Luke's involvement. Like the final confrontation with Vader, the meeting between Luke and Ben was intensely important to the Skywalker family saga, but ultimately had no effect on the larger galactic conflict.

Edit: I should say no *immediate* effect. Vader and Palpatine may or may not have been killed in the death star explosion had Luke not been there, but their deaths certainly had a huge effect on the war. Presumably in IX we'll find out what effect Luke's little talk had on Kylo

 

The end of the film directly refutes this.

And remember, this thread is not for protracted debates or stealth complaints.

 

If Luke hadn’t bought the Resistance time by stalling - as Poe stalls Hux in the opening by pushing the buttons most guaranteed to make him angry - then they would have marched in through the base and killed the Resistance before Rey could even get out of the Falcon. That’s what the action during the ending is saying.


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So really, you'd probab)y just have your ship's radio communications deliberately disabled. OUR COMMANDER'S GONE NUTTY.

What you'd have on your hands, Captain Remus, is mutiny. But not just any mutiny.

Space Mutiny.

 

I definitely think that more context on Ben being turned by Snoke was always part of the plan for 9.

 

It's basically like making a Facebook event, and having several dozen friends "Like" it, but like 2 people RSVP and no one shows up.

 

In addition to the comments about Leia leaving the dice as a message to Kylo, the dice served a purpose in Luke's apology to Leia. He was sorry he failed her son. He was sorry he didn't help the Resistance sooner. And he was sorry Han died as a result - while not blatantly exposed, it is clear to me that he likely blames himself for Han's death. The dice offer a "callback" to Leia: "I'm back to help the Resistance become what the Rebellion had been at its peak, when we all rode in the Falcon together." I believe the wink to C3-PO had a similar purpose.

Luke doesn't use his energy to chase Snoke because, by the time he had decided to help, he had sensed Snoke's death. So now Kylo is the real villain. Luke knows, after talking with Yoda, that he can have more of an impact by helping the Resistance in the way he ultimately did (especially since he likely sensed Snoke's death earlier). The ending makes that abundantly clear. And he may even return in Ep 9 as a ghost.

 

Yes, that's quite an astonishing misinterpretation of the film the story is actually telling.

 

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

 

Okay, but what about before the events of TLJ? Why didn't Luke kill Snoke at any point before Kylo did? That's the part I've been trying to understand better. What was stopping Luke from bringing down the Supreme Leader all those years ago...? Like someone said before, maybe there's just not enough info at this point. It's supposed to be a mystery.

 

Based on what I said yesterday about Luke perhaps not yet knowing about Snoke, it is possible that after Ben Solo went dark, Luke intiitally went after Snoke as soon as he knew about him. Maybe that’s where his scars came from?

 

We just don't know yet is the answer.

 

I would probably lean towards that not fitting in with Luke's philosophy or maybe not actually being something a Jedi should do. In RotJ, he didn't go to Darth Vader in order to kill him or even to kill the Emperor, but to turn him back to the light. Luke was then coerced closer to the Dark Side by then attacking the Emperor and Darth Vader, but eventually threw away his lightsaber and declared himself a Jedi. I expect his not going after to assassinate Snoke is going to be for similar reasons.

 

Before TLJ, Snoke was hiding in the Unknown Regions, and had his army at full strenght. Like Luke says, do we expect he to go with a laser sword in hand, infiltrate the Supremacy, fight hordes of Stormtroopers, TIEs, and AT-STs, then face alone Snoke and his guards, all at the same time? No, this was not feasible.

This is why Luke makes a point to Rey that the Jedi are not "Gods" like legends may have made them look like.

Kylo managed to kill Snoke due to the surprise factor. He was close to him, and took away his master when Snoke was blinded by his arrogance.

 

Why in the hell did Rey go talk to Kylo about her experience in the cave and start caring about him randomly?

 

It wasn't random and I don't know if "caring" is quite the correct word. "Understanding" might be better. They've had that connection, they've had the conversations. At that point she has his perspective on why he turned away from Luke and I think with that perspective she can understand why he's made the choices he's made and that makes him more of a person rather than a monster.

Plus, she's clearly been faced with a Luke Skywalker that isn't what she expected. She can't really talk to him or confide in him since he seems more interested in pushing her (with everyone else) away. Kylo, with their Force connection, is really the only other person she can talk to. Plus, he's willing to listen and I think that goes a long way.

 

I don't think Luke knew how much of an immediate threat Snoke had become until he read Ben Solo's mind. Before that there wasn't cause enough for Luke to hunt down Snoke. After the destruction of the new Jedi Temple, hunting down Snoke would have also meant confronting his nephew and former students - which Luke was not going to do.

My guess is the First Order didn't start openly building up their forces until after Luke went into exile. Even then the New Republic was under estimating the might of the First Order. I also get the impression form The Last Jedi that the entire time Luke was in exile, Snoke was worriedly expecting Luke to showing up and fight him.

 

Agree or not, this is what the Visual Dictionary said, so it's canon.