The Last Jedi Discussion Thread - **UNTAGGED SPOILERS WITHIN**

Has anyone felt that the Scene from Rey and Kylo, at the throne room (after dispatching the red guards), quite familiar?

I did at the time, but couldn't figure it out what movie I saw that... now I know!

 

There were quite a few scenes of dialogue that were direct lifts from TOT. Especially from Snoke in the throne room scene, but there were a lot of other places, as well. I think it was supposed to be an homage, but there were a few too many.

Actually, I've got a minor quibble... saw it again yesterday, and Blue Ghost Yoda seems very opaque. The other Blue Ghosts were slightly transparent.

 

It's Yoda, after all.

 

I'll settle for this explanation!

 

Why not? Who else gets to be the ONLY being in the GFFA to still smack Luke around?

 

I agreed with you from the first time you said that - sorry if it wasn't clear.

This article is pretty interesting:
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/...s-the-true-villain-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi

 

That is a really thought provoking article. Thank you for sharing it.

 

Here's another great article.

https://www.tor.com/2018/01/04/luke...content=na-readblog-blogpost&utm_campaign=tor

 

I saw the title and thought "Well, duh!"

I saw a lot of my own life in Rey and Luke's meeting and back when people were writing all these stories where Luke was like, "Yeah, my lightsaber, the chosen girl, yay!" ...some folks thought I was being rude, passive-aggressive and all, so I could not say the following out loud, but now I can: I knew that he would immediately do something disappointing. I just knew it. It always happens that way.

Here's a song that describes the concept:
http://lyricstranslate.com/en/denkmal-monument.html

And this, boys and girls, is why I refrained from writing a post-TFA fic all along and why I think I nailed Luke in that one with flashbacks. I knew that I would get a lot of bashing (thing I edited some weeks ago - don't ask!) and I was afraid to give everybody a disappointing, brooding Luke. People would've thought of it as a deliberate mickey take. I would've gotten banned, or so I thought back then. Legends Luke in god-mode and all.

Now I think I should have done so. Why, oh why don't I trust my hunches, unless they're about meaningless things, such as guessing the fic-gift chain and the award winners?

 

Kudos to Daisy Ridley for not making the scene cringe worthy. Can't say that for Natalie Portman.

 

To be fair to Natalie Portman, the dialogue in the PT was... lacking. For a long time I have suggested look at the scenes where she is crying in RotS (Anakin, you're breaking my heart! ) and in V for Vendetta where she comes out of the prison she has been held in, goes out into the rain, and is reborn a different person. The difference is night and day. A good actor can make garbage shine but she only had so much to work with.

 

Could not agree more. I think George Clooney would have made an awesome Batman, because he would have done justice to both sides of the character. But Schumacher decided to go camp and over the top... when the script is awful, there is only so much an actor can do. Or as Harrison Ford said, "George, you can type this [stuff], but you can't say it!"

 

This is going to sound like an anti-TFA rant, which it isn't because I really enjoyed TFA, but I re-saw TLJ this afternoon and there's no comparison between the two. TLJ is just a superior film. There's stuff happening in the corners of the screen, not just in the middle like your standard run-of-the-mill blockbuster. The actor direction is infinitely better – just compare TFA Adam Driver as Kylo and the same actor/character in TLJ, for instance, or Carrie Fisher, for whom the thingy about "making garbage shine" applies 200% in the case of TFA. And the writing, oh, the writing. TFA feels so linear now. TLJ on the other hand is full of reversals, and what is more they serve a purpose, both in-universe and out-of-universe. Also, TLJ does such a better job with the passing of the torch from the old generation to the new generation – Luke saying "I won't be the last Jedi" about Rey and Leia's fantastic line "What are you looking at me for? Follow him!" about Poe – whereas there was no successor or legacy for Han in TFA other than Rey sitting in the pilot's chair in the Falcon.

The one bit I still feel could have been done better is the Canto Bight scene. I find in particular that Finn's characterisation throughout that passage was a little simplistic. I don't think anymore that Canto Bight is a detour from the main plot – again, it serves a purpose – but it could probably be a little shorter. The super-duper-symphonic music during the fathier cavalcade is fantabulous though and the moment Broom Boy is shouting "Go! Go! Go! Go!" when he opens the stables is great.

Mark Hamill's performance is the best example of how good TLJ is, IMO. He plays so many different versions of Luke throughout the movie: the grumpy old hermit, the suddenly rejuvenated man when he sees Artoo in the Falcon, the legend who faces the whole First Order with a lasersword but also the confident older Jedi who winks at Threepio, the man who has finally found peace – and of course the three versions of the flashback scene, where he is so grossly overplaying in the first two that it should be an obvious clue to the watcher that there's an unreliable narrator at work here.

And the random titbit of the day: I love the fact that, in the battle of Crait, it's Chewie piloting the Falcon while Rey is in the gunner seat. It just works for me.

Now I'm besieged by plot bunnies, like every time I saw TLJ. *goes off to consolidate her fortifications*

 

Someone even pointed out that in this episode the younger members of the Resistance would have grown up hearing the tales of the Rebellion, especially about Rogue One and how a dozen plus people defied the leaders of the Rebellion and, with help of others, managed to steal the Death Star plans from a secure Imperial Facility so they see themselves as the New Rebels, defying 'silly' orders from their Superiors and become heroes without fully understanding just how much their actions and the actions of others affect the whole or how high the losses would be. 'Yeah Rogue One had a one hundred percent fatality rate and those that showed up to help them probably easily had a 70+ percent fatality rate but hey, we got the Death Star plans and blew it up!'

And they had a point since everyone we see that takes part in Poe's mutiny appears to be his age and younger: those that would have grown up hearing Rebellion War Stories but not necessarily about the losses or when it didn't work.

 

*sends bunny chow and a siege engine...*

 

@Chyntuck: May not so much anti-TFA as fauning over TLJ.

While reading your post, it occurred to me that Han and the Rathar are almost as pointless. The escape of the Rathar was useless filler for no purpose other than to get Han away from his pursuers. Canto Bight was another similar diversion to fill time and poke the rich war profiteers with a proverbial stick. Though it was given a purpose, it was ultimately reversed so Finn could dispense with Phasma, anticlimactically.

That may have sounded like anti-Canto Bight commentary...and it was.

 

She is the other classic hero archetype, the pore farmer child who beat the monster and gets the royal spawn/similar happy ending.

I saw it at once but I just took it that Luke had groomed himself, changed into his one set of good clothes and that he had built a new 'sabre.

I have take it that the dark side cave is a vision cave that shows you the future but only bad futures. It shows Luke as Vader becouse Luke could easily become a new Vader if he did not learn control, that my reading at least.

 

So, anti-Canto Bight. I agreed that it seemed pointless until I read something someone linked to on twitter. I don't have a twitter account, I just read an article that linked to it and I can't name the source, just know it wasn't me who came up with this.

Anyway, Canto Bight seems pointless but it isn't. You have Finn, who is not a member of the Resistance, he just happens to have similar goals as them at the time he goes to Starkiller base to rescue Rey in TFA. In TLJ he's going to the escape pod to get away from the trapped Resistance fleet so Rey doesn't follow the tracker that he has in his possession and end up in the same trap. It's all about helping his friend, Rey. He is not a member of the Resistance. He hasn't committed yet, he's just seeing the smaller picture, and hasn't developed his moral compass completely. When he goes to Canto Bight he begins to see that bigger picture. DJ really seals it for him. DJ is his future. DJ is him if survival is his only goal. It's only after he sees this that he realizes what his moral compass is and he commits to the Resistance. It's why, when Phasma tells him he was always scum, he says he is Rebel Scum. The reason for the whole code breaker and mutiny plots was for Poe and Finn to progress and grow as characters. That's the reason for Canto Bight.

Joe

 

@brodiew I guess I managed to keep the negative things I have to say about TFA out of my previous post, but now that you mentioned the rathtars the gloves are off because that scene exemplifies TFA's weakness IMO. Compare for instance to the wampa sequence in TESB. The wampa sequence is useless to the main plot; it's just a little sub-adventure that was necessary to explain Mark Hamill's RL scars, but the writing is so good that we as viewers can find reasons for it to exist: it tells us how desperate the Rebellion is if they chose this particular planet as their base, it tells us that Luke has grown in the Force, it tells us how attached Han has become to Luke, etc etc. All this sets the stage for everything that happens next and we come to see it as an intrinsic part of the story. The rathtar scene in TFA is also supposed to tell us things: there's the 'how the mighty have fallen' element for Han, there's the idea that Rey has grown very attached to Finn, there's the idea that Rey is good with tech but knows very little about the wider galaxy whereas Finn is the opposite, etc. But all those bits and pieces get drowned in the CGI-fest because the writing of the whole film is so linear, with so little character growth, that the dots remain unconnected and they don't mesh properly with the rest.

@lordmaul13 I agree that Canto Bight is supposed to be the moment when Finn understands the big picture about the state of the galaxy but I still find that this particular arc of character growth could have been handled better. Beyond the fact that the message was a bit too on the nose, there's also an internal inconsistency because Finn actually volunteered for this mission as soon as Rose mentioned the possibility of deactivating the hyperspace tracker. If the point was to show that he was focused exclusively on Rey until then, it should have taken some convincing to get him on board. More generally, I feel that there's something about Finn's arc that's thematically inconsistent with the rest of the film. One important aspect of Rey's, Poe's and Rose's stories is that they grow out of the hero worship mentality, and I don't see that Finn really gets there (for instance, his argument for engaging the FO in battle on Crait to gain time until the Resistance's allies come is "people believe in Leia").

Also, to follow up on what @Lady_Misty said above about the young generation vs the older generation, there's an element there that should have been made more explicit. On my first viewing of the film I found it odd that Holdo wouldn't share her plan with Poe and I had to assume that it was out of pride, arrogance or whatever. When I saw it again I realised that there were several Resistance officers higher-ranking than Poe who were obviously in on Holdo's plan (and the reason why the plan couldn't be shared with everyone is even stated by Rose, who's been preventing people from deserting). However, we as viewers will naturally assume that, as a protagonist, Poe is an important enough person in the Resistance that he would be expected to know what is going on, and I don't think the movie did a good job at pointing out why that just isn't the case.

 

But he volunteered because of Rey. He's still focusing on her. What happens to her when she comes back into the trap that they're caught in? She jumps in and, aw crap the whole Resistance fleet (and Rey) is about to be destroyed because they're almost out of gas. (Another TLJ issue to be sure. ) This is still Finn trying the save his friend Rey.

I'm in the US military. One of the things that is preached to us is faith in the chain of command. We have to have faith that the people above us are at the absolute very least spending our lives for something worthwhile or the entire system collapses. I 100% disagree that she should have shared the plan with Poe. We see that Rose has stopped some (how many?) people from deserting. If nothing else, what happens when someone who has heard the plan jumps in an escape pod and the First Order captures them?

You may be seeing Poe as a main character in a movie! Crazy, I know! He's really just a recently demoted, hot-headed fighter jock who needs to get his head out of his cockpit. But, really, who the hell is Poe? If you look at it from the point of view of someone who isn't watching a movie, does he need to know? The answer is no. He absolutely does not. When he finds out part of the plan, he mutinies, which by all rights ought be punishable by death. He eventually did find out the whole plan but and said, "that just might work," but does that really mean he needed to know or did he simply need faith?

Joe

 

And that is the question: what happens when the ones underneath lose faith in the chain of command? I wasn't really impressed by Holdo's great plan: "Let's hide on a planet we have no way to escape from and cry for help and hope someone shows up to save us!" There were several other things she and Leia could have done that would have been more effective, and Poe's plan, while risky to the team that was supposed to infiltrate the Star Destroyer, wasn't any worse than Holdo's.

Because sometimes, the folks in charge are wrong. Look at the British troops in the Somme, or the Anzac troops at Gallipoli, or Lord Cardigan and the Charge of the Light Brigade. So, it's an interesting question (certainly from the point of view of an author): when you have lost faith in your chain of command, how do you function? Do you go along with a plan that you are certain will result in your death without gaining any measurable objective? Do you desert? Do you mutiny? And I'm not talking about orders that are illegal, which you're obligated to protest (at least under UCMJ). Something to ponder... (Actually, look at First Order Captain Canady, who wanted to launch TIE fighters long before Poe showed up to taunt Hux. Followed Hux, knowing he was incompetent, but had his hands tied and ultimately lost his ship because of it. One of the Old Guard, probably former Imperial, realizing that the new kids really don't have a clue...)

 

Here are my thougths about TLJ:

Over all I liked it

The good
* the worldbuilding, each planet we visit feels likes its own world instead of not-Sandbox, not-New Zeeland or not-Ireland. Animals! Clothing! Non-humans! Architecture!
* the movie did not rush from beginning to end but instead took time to explain from time to time what was going on and/or give background.
* The end fight, it was glorious.

The bad
* the non-communication between Admiral Holdo and the rest of the crew. They could easily have used Poe's plan, even if he know about Admiral Holdo's original plan, as a plan-B if the original plan hadn’t worked, or vice versa. At least give us a reason to why she don't share her plan, beside "I don't need to tell you".
* the way Admiral Holdo turned her ship into a shield piercing super missile. If they can do that, why haven't we seen it done before?
* there where some extra fat that easily could have been trimmed down, like the first battle could have been quicker and less overdramatic.
* why did Chewie not really do anything besides saying 'Hello' to Luke on Jedi-temple planet? He and Rey should be working together to get Luke to stop moping.
* no non-humans among the Resistance beside the handful we saw in TFA and no reuse of old OT and/or PT non-humans beside the previous mentioned.

The Gamiel
* the people in the Canto Bight casino should have been using colourful jewellery. If your main colours are black, white and cream emeralds, rubies and similar will stand out in a nice way.
* I still don't like that they seems to use a dualistic idea of the Force and some of the other points from TFA (like Rey's hypercompetence when it comes to Jedi skills) but I accept that as just something the movie has to deal with since it was established in TFA.
* I have no problem with Rey being the child of nobodies but I don't like that she has no previus traning in the Force since she is capable of doing what she is doing. It feels like a person with a good music ear but no training would be able to pick up a bagpipe and play it alie she was trained, to me.
* the filmmakers don't really know whether, Rey is from a warmer desert planet. Standing in the rain as she dose in her not-for-rain clothing and then not changing when under roof in that kind of weather will lead to sickness
* I find it strange that the same people that do the FO's tech do the Resistance's. It just feels like there should be different companies making those.
* Chewie being affected by the Porgs doing their eye thing against him when he is trying to have dinner. If he is skilled enough to hunt and kill them so should he not have any problem with them looking at him.
* While we are talking about the porg, I don't like the overhype the marketing department gave the porg since they are just space-puffins.
* a bit too many of the non-humans on Canto Bight looked too static. I know that they can make puppets that look more alive, why did they not?
* it would have been nice if people had answered the Resistance call for help, even if it was just a message that they would be there at a time when it would have been too late for the Resistance
* the way some people was talking about this movie I was expecting some real plottwist or SW lore changing reveals (that TFA had not done). I’m a bit disappointed that did not come.
* I don't like all the decisions in the movie but I accept them.
* I laughed at more or less all the joke but many felt more Marvel the SW, I don't know if I really like Marvel style jokes in my SW.

From a fanficers perspektive do I like the new planets and species introduced (I will absolutely use the space-horses in some future story) but I have no real interest in writing in the ST-'verse.

 

@Mistress_Renata Actually Holdo's plan was "let's hide on a planet until the FO fly away". The reason it became "a planet we have no way to escape from and hope someone shows up to save us" is because Poe's plan fails spectacularly.

The thing is that Poe doesn't lose faith in Holdo's plan, he doesn't have faith in any plan Holdo may have unless he's privy to it. Because he's close to Leia he's probably used to being in the loop, and he doesn't stop for a second to think that he may just not be high enough in the hierarchy for Holdo to trust him (not to mention that he's just been demoted).

Also, I'm pretty sure that there's a heavy hint he's going to act like a jackass from the first moment Holdo appears. I find that there's a rather obvious undertone of sexism when his first reaction is "Battle of XYZ Admiral Holdo? She's not what I imagined".

 

@Gamiel: * why did Chewie not really do anything besides saying 'Hello' to Luke on Jedi-temple planet? He and Rey should be working together to get Luke to stop moping.

Yes! I thought this same thing.

 

There are other ways to get in, that mega laser was just the quickest. Stopping it would not have prevented the FO from getting in.

Something I hope we will see in the next Movie is some kind of "gathering of the free people" where we see representatives from many different planets and organisations gather to coordinate their defences and retaliations against the FO. I would like it to be a bit like the intro to the Warriors where we see representatives of the different gangs moving toward Bronx, where each gang is different and we can see who belongs to who even when they are all togheter.

Fixed it for you

I'm going to sound like @GrandAdmiralJello here but the Canto Bight was one of the best parts of the move for me: Clothing! Animals! Non-humans! Architecture! Clothing and items that don't look like it's overused and in nead of repair!

I would have no problem if they had shortened some of the battle scenes and instead gave us more Canto Bight

Several? I only remember three on her side, Poe had at least one of the bridge crew on his side and the rest of the crew seemed to have no problem with him mutining

Maybe if they had know that there actually was a plan that was more then "continue forward, maybe something will come up while we are running", maybe they had not tryed to jump the ship.

I really dislike that no reason, beside "I don't need to tell you", was given for Holdo to not share her plan.

I took it as meaning that she was not in uniform, unlike the other officers (beside Leia) that we had seen.