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ST THE LAST JEDI mirroring (specifically AOTC/ESB/TLJ)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I've been working on this for a while. I will post roughly half today and the rest in a few days.
    Gonna be lots of posts (there is a 20 image limit).

    Many mirrors in SW movies seem to work on inversions of the previous narrative. This all makes a little more sense if that is kept in mind.

    Whether the majority are intentional or not, my main aim is to study the perspective enhancement I think looking at these comparisons gives.

    A lot of these observations have been posted by others over the last four-five years of the ST’s run. I honestly can’t remember most of the sources, so if you see something you posted you are welcome to take full credit.

    (Btw I'd recommend zooming out a bit)
    Light side cave (where Rey gets two lessons from Luke)
    [​IMG]
    Dark side cave (where Rey looks for answers when Luke is being unresponsive)
    [​IMG]


    ----------------------------------------

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    TFA/TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]




    -----------------------------------



    Fleeing Rebel base:
    [​IMG]
    Fleeing Resistance base as it is destroyed:
    [​IMG]
    "Punch it!"

    ------------------------------

    Uncertainty:
    AOTC
    [​IMG]
    ESB
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]




    --------------------------------------


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    --------------------------------



    ESB (Luke leaves his Jedi training to help his friends) (Force-ghost Kenobi)
    [​IMG]
    TLJ (Yoda convinces Luke to come back and keep the Jedi Order alive and help his friends) (Force ghost Yoda)
    [​IMG]

    NEW THREAD RULES: PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS IF YOU INCLUDE LARGE IMAGES IN YOUR POSTS. THE SCREENSHOTS ARE APPRECIATED, BUT THEY CAN TAKE A LONG TIME TO LOAD, SO SPOILER TAGS MAKES IT EASIER TO READ THE THREAD. /TCF
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  2. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    First force-connect between Luke and Leia
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Leia goes back to rescue Luke.

    Luke reconnects to the force by reconnecting to Leia
    [​IMG]
    "Luke"
    [​IMG]
    "Leia!"
    [​IMG]


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Three Jedi Temples burning
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Vader and Clonetroopers have attacked the Republic era Jedi Temple during Order 66






    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Kylo turned and destroyed the pre-ST era Jedi Temple (I think) with subconsciously summoned lightning



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Luke wants to end the Jedi Order permanently. Yoda summons lightning to burn the original Jedi Temple... yet implores Luke to learn from his failure and continue the Order afterall.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    AOTC - Dooku disciplines Anakin. Anakin will kill and replace Dooku later:
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Snoke disciplines Kylo. Kylo will kill and replace Snoke later:
    [​IMG]



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Vader and Kylo
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Piett is afraid of what lies under Vader's mask.



    Snoke however is not intimidated by Kylo (or his mask) in the slightest.
    Snoke: “Take that ridiculous thing off!”
    [​IMG]
    Snoke: "There it is. You have too much of your father's heart."
    [​IMG]
    (Trivially there is a similar vacuum "hiss" sound as Kylo takes off the helmet much like the sound of the chamber Vader is sitting in... and the sound when Anakin takes off the mask in ROTJ)

    Snoke: "Alas... you're no Vader. You're just a child... in a mask."




    ----

    Qui-Gon’s spirit’s voice as Anakin takes first step towards the dark side:
    “Anakin... Anakin... nooo!”

    Luke as Ben turns to the dark side:
    “Ben, no!”

    ----




    AOTC -
    Palpatine: “I see you becoming greatest of all Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.”

    ESB -
    Palpatine: “He could destroy us. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.”
    (These are Anakin's and Vader’s only scene with Sidious in both AOTC and ESB respectively)

    ESB -
    Vader: “All too easy. Perhaps you are not as strong as the Emperor thought?” ... "Impressive! Most impressive.
    TLJ –
    Snoke: “When I found you I saw what all masters live to see. Raw untamed power! And beyond that something... special. The potential of your bloodline. A new... Vader.”
    ...
    Snoke: “Now I fear... I was mistaken.” .... “Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi lives. While it does... hope lives in the galaxy.
    I thought you would be the one to snuff it out.”
    ...
    Snoke: “Well done my good and faithful apprentice. My faith in you is restored.



    ------


    ESB – Yoda: “Much anger in him. Like his father.”

    TLJ – Snoke: “You have too much of your father’s heart... young Solo.”



    -------



    ESB -
    Vader: “Don’t make me destroy you.”
    (Luke rejects Vader's offer of power and jumps to possible death)

    TLJ –
    (After Rey rejects Kylo's offer to join him)
    Kylo: “I’ll destroy you. And her. And all of it.”

    Kylo seems darker than Vader on this occasion. Unsettling.



    ESB –
    Vader: “Prepare a boarding party and set your weapons for stun.”
    TLJ –
    Kylo: “General Hux... advance. No quarter. No prisoners.”

    Again, when Kylo is evil he is evil.

    -------



    TPM -
    Yoda: “Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering!”

    AOTC –
    Yoda: “Pain. Suffering. Death I feel! Young Skywalker is in pain, terrible pain.”

    ROTS –
    Yoda: "These visions you have...”
    Anakin: “They are of pain. Suffering. Death.

    TLJ -
    Luke: “He would bring pain and destruction and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it!”


    The Jedi Council fearing Anakin partially pushes him away and towards Palpatine. Yet their fears are ultimately proven founded. A self-fulfilling prophecy?

    Anakin’s manifested fear of losing Padme pushes him to turn to the dark side to save her, which paradoxically leads to her death.

    Luke feared Ben’s possible monstrous future, and almost acted on his own dark (dark side?) fear. Which Ben senses and ironically turns because of. Another self-fulfilling prophecy based in mutual fear. And sourced from Palpatine/Snoke having planted the seeds of doubt in Ben and foreseeing this coming.


    TROS –
    Luke: “Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi.”
    Tying back to Yoda's words in TPM.



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  4. DarthKegs

    DarthKegs Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2019
    You've got waaay too much spare time on your hands.
    All I can say is go get a job. Anything at all will do as it would be far more productive than this.
     
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Ach-To has some transition from day to evening involving Luke's arc.
    Intro to Ach-To
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    First lesson:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Second lesson:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    Luke passes away:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AOTC - Anakin and Padme go to Tattooine without the Jedi Council's knowledge
    [​IMG]
    Dark journey
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Finn and Rose go to Canto Bight without Holdo's knowledge
    [​IMG]
    Light journey
    [​IMG]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB - "The first transport is away!" (Cheer)
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - "Dreadnaught down!" (Cheer)
    [​IMG]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB - Rebel medical frigate is solitude after everything they went through (hopeful mood)
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Resistance medical frigate runs out of fuel and is destroyed (doomed mood)
    [​IMG]

    (@DarthKegs Make me. :p )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  6. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Everything we do here could be considered unproductive. It's a forum for discussing silly space movies for goodness sake. Just because you're not interested in this particular thread doesn't mean you get to troll it.
     
  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanks @MarcJordan and @Iron_lord !
    Appreciate it.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB - Luke sees Falcon leaving without him. He is going to Dagobah to train under Yoda and become a Jedi.
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Luke watches Falcon leave without him. In the following scene Yoda convinces him to return to being a Jedi once again.
    [​IMG]

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This one may be a little controversial depending on your opinion. Some pretty glaring parallels to Rey going to try and redeem Kylo.

    ROTS (Birth and rebirth)[​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    ROTS
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]


    ROTS
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ion cannon support from ground disables the blockading Star Destroyer
    Rebellion member: "The first transport is away!"

    TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Reverse shooting from Dreadnaught to ground.
    Resistance member: "The last transport is away!"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Geonosis / Hoth / Crait (1)


    ESB and TLJ mirror directly, with the good guys bases being advanced on and overrun.

    AOTC is the inverse, with the bad guys cowering underground then fleeing the planet in retreat, as the Republic appears (at this stage) to triumph. But the Jedi are building false trust for the Clones battling alongside them, and any victory for the Republic strengthens Palpatine’s grasp on the galaxy with the future Empire.



    ESB -
    Vader: “That’s it! The Rebels are there.”... “That is the system. And I’m sure Skywalker is with them.”
    ...
    Vader: “General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.”
    TLJ –
    Kylo: “We know where she’s going. Get all our forces down to that Resistance base. Lets finish this.”



    ESB -
    “Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.”
    TLJ -
    Poe: “The shield is up so they can’t hit us from orbit.”



    ESB -
    Imperials admirals Ozzel and Piett are rivals for Vader and the Emperor's approval.
    TLJ –
    Kylo and Hux are rivals. Hux considers killing Kylo when he is unconscious, they try to override each other’s orders on Crait, and in TROS Hux sabotages the First Order to get back at Kylo.



    AOTC –
    Poggle: “I’m sending my warriors to hide in the catacombs!”
    ... “We have to order a retreat!”
    ESB -
    Rebels hiding underground on Hoth. Only shield generator is visible from surface.
    Leia: “Give the evacuation code signal.”
    TLJ –
    Resistance hiding in abandoned Rebel base.

    Hoth (intro)
    [​IMG]
    Crait (intro)
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]



    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]




    ESB - Walkers cause snow to fall and cave-ins inside the Rebel base
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - The battering-ram cannon causes dirt and rock to fall in the abandoned Rebel base
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Geonosis / Hoth / Crait (2)


    AOTC - Bad guys retreat (inversion of ESB). Republic army shoots some of their ships down.
    [​IMG]
    ESB - Good guys retreat. Ion cannon helps them pass.
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - "We've caught them in the middle of their evacuation!"
    [​IMG]


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Resistance using abandoned Rebel base
    [​IMG]


    ESB
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]






    ESB - Base door must be closed even though Luke and Han are out in the snowstorm.
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Base door being broken open by First Order. Only Luke Skywalker creating a significant diversion lets the Resistance escape.
    [​IMG]


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Separatists being defeated
    [​IMG]
    Rebels being defeated
    [​IMG]
    Resistance being defeated (but surviving)
    [​IMG]




    Hoth base shield generator blown up (Empire has won)
    [​IMG]
    Crait base door broken open (First Order has nearly won)
    [​IMG]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Both Vader and Kylo barely miss the (two groups of) heroes, who escape on the Millennium Falcon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Such a contrast. Kind of surreal [face_hypnotized]





    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]






    Spotting Artoo
    [​IMG]
    ESB –
    Artoo is momentarily lost when he falls in the swamp water.

    Luke (worried): “Artoo? Artoo!”

    TLJ –
    Artoo activates and Luke spots him for the first time in years.

    Luke (elated): “Artoo? Artoo!”




    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Dagobah cave, "strong with the dark side of the force"
    [​IMG]
    Rey notices the Jedi Temple (tree). Inside she hears voices, possibly of Jedi who have passed on.
    [​IMG]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB -
    Yoda instructs Luke to go into the dark side cave with “Only what you take with you.”

    He takes his weapons against Yoda's advice; goes in expecting a fight, so he gets one. Then sees his own face in the decapitated Vader (apparition).

    TLJ -
    Rey goes into the dark side cave of Ach-To on her own curiosity for answers. Luke has rejected her, and Kylo is tempting her to look for other paths. She wants to find belonging and purpose.

    The cave fails to answer her question about her parent’s identity. It shows her she only has herself. The dark side offers her nothing. She leaves feeling worse than before.
    Likely there is some implication her "found family" is where she needs to look for happiness.


    (((Kylo also entered the Dagobah cave in the Snoke comic.

    Kylo: "What's in there?"
    Snoke: “Only what you've been too weak to bury.”

    Inverting Yoda’s lesson. He kills the Luke apparition but only tricks Snoke into thinking he killed the apparitions of Han and Leia.)))

    The Dagobah cave mirrors the "dark place" Rey senses beneath Ach-To.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]
    Rey is pulled in
    [​IMG]





    ESB
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    TLJ - representation of passage of time.
    [​IMG]
    Rey: "I should have felt trapped or panicked, but I didn't" ... "it would show me what I came to see."
    "Show me. My parents. Please."
    [​IMG]











    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Rey: "I thought I would find answers here. I was wrong. I'd never felt so alone."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Luke has arguably reverted to his pre-enlightened state.

    A decision based on fear... "It is time for the Jedi... to end."
    Back turned to Jedi Temple:
    [​IMG]


    ESB -
    Dak: “Right now I feel like I could take on the whole Empire myself!”
    Luke: “I know what you mean.”
    TLJ -
    Luke: "You think what?... I'm gonna walk out with a lasersword and face down the whole First Order? What did you think was going to happen here?”

    Luke’s TLJ statement subverts his original characterisation.



    TLJ –
    “At the height of their power they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out!”

    The Jedi’s vision in the PT was clouded by the growing strength of the dark side. They are looking outwards for the source of the darkness instead of looking inwards at the Republic, Sidious masterminding at the centre of their own government.

    Both the AOTC references to Sidious and the TLJ name-drop allude to this.

    Luke’s words are valid regarding the Jedi Order’s short-sightedness in the PT. But he seems to be ignoring that his generation redeemed the Jedi name, and if not for the OT Jedi, and the Jedi in general, things would be much worse. He is projecting his own failure (and the failures of his father’s generation) onto the entire concept of the Jedi. He doesn’t want to contribute to the cycle. Largely due to acting on fear, that he overcomes at the end of TLJ, as he states in TROS.



    Yoda: “Heeded my words not did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. Hmm. But weakness, folly, failure, also... yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is.
    Luke. We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”


    He comes around by the end of the film, and then metaphorically does “face down the whole First Order”.
    With a semi-passive Jedi display; projecting himself from Ach-To.





    TLJ Opening Crawl:
    Only General Leia Organa's band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.

    ...
    Holdo: “We are the spark that will ignite the fire that will restore the Republic. That spark... this Resistance, must survive.”
    ...

    CONNIX: “Our distress signal's been received at multiple points, but no response.”
    LARMA D'ACY: “They've heard us, but no one's coming.“
    LEIA: “We fought 'till the end. But the galaxy has lost all its hope. The spark is out.”


    ( Holdo (earlier):
    Leia always told me; Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it...
    Poe: “...You’ll never make it through the night.”)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Poe: “We are the spark that'll light the fire that will burn the First Order down. Skywalker's doing this so we can survive.”
    Symbolised by Luke walking out through the fire:
    [​IMG][​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  12. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Awesome I love the mirroring through the saga brings it closer together........
     
  13. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014

    I’ve been waiting for Hevy to do this. I noticed some of the posts are similar and likely from my takings too. But not to belabour, Hevy by all means use them.

    I’m getting too old for this sort of thing. That said most I must say I didn’t connect till you did so. So thank you sir.

    More to come I hope?

    MJ
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    DarthWolvo23, Iron_lord and HevyDevy like this.
  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Hah. Cheers. I know you are into this stuff.


    Yes, some of them were already used on the PT references in TLJ thread, and I'm sure you already noticed a lot of them yourself.
    It is hard to keep track so I'm just compiling it all here.


    I'm going away for a couple of days but I've still got plenty to post when I get back, yes :)
     
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  15. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Great work, HevyDevy. Some of them were weaker than others but there were some really good ones I hadn't found. I really like the light side cave versus the dark side cave. Great work there by Rian Johnson.
     
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    True. Glad you like the thread.

    Yes, some of my observations are pushing the boundary a bit I admit. It is not all intentional on the film-makers parts of course, but I honestly get a kick out of looking for this stuff.

    FWIW I have recently come to the conclusion that RJ's movie connects to the PT more than JJ's two entries in the saga. Take from that what you will.



    I noticed I missed a detail when I was talking about Luke mentioning the name Sidious in TLJ.


    The AOTC dialogue I think is very relevant was...

    Mace: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force is diminished."
    Yoda: "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."


    Dooku: "The dark side of the force has clouded their (the Jedi's) vision my friend.
    Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a dark Lord of the Sith known as... Darth Sidious."

    And...
    Obi-Wan: "What do you make of Count Dooku's claim of Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."
    Yoda: "Joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."
    Mace: "Nevertheless, I think we should keep a closer eye on the Senate from now on."


    Luke's lost faith in the Jedi's ultimate wisdom has legitimate roots here. Even if he is being too harsh.

    My reading is as Sidious and the dark side grew in strength and the force shifted further into imbalance the Jedi's ability to "feel" for the truth gets lost in a haze. The PT era is a tumultuous time and there is too much darkness building up for the Jedi to sense on instinct.
    The OT however was an era of greater clarity for the Jedi as balance returned, and it was now Sidious who had become more short-sighted.
    Paricularly with regards to the conflict in Vader and the hidden strength of the light remaining in the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  17. Ubraniff Zalkaz

    Ubraniff Zalkaz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2014
    I absolutely love TLJ. It has the most prequel references/elements of the ST. It mirrors both AOTC and TESB. It also is almost a complete inverse to TESB, which is very intriguing to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I must admit I've softened on the film.

    I still prefer TROS and TFA though I think. I will see how I feel after the whole trilogy comes out on bluray.
     
  19. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Continuing...






    Han spots Vader for the first time in ESB - Han's instinctive reaction
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Vader is unphased even when being fired on directly.

    Rey spots Kylo for the first time in TLJ - Rey's instinctive reaction
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Kylo feels the shot psychologically even though it isn't really hitting him.
    ESB - Kylo's first line after is "You will bring Luke Skywalker to me." yet he then realises Rey isn't dumb enough to fall for the attempted mind-trick.
    TLJ - Vader successfully uses the captive Rebels to lure their friend Luke to Bespin.






    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ESB (Dagobah)
    [​IMG]
    TLJ (Ach-To)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    AOTC –
    Palpatine: “I don’t know how much longer I can hold off the vote my friends. More and more star systems are joining the Separatist Alliance.”
    ...
    “My negotiations... will not fail.”

    TLJ –
    Hux: “The Republic is no more. Your fleet are rebel scum and war criminals. Tell your precious princess there will be no terms. No surrender."
    Poe: “Hi I’m holding for General Hux?”
    Hux: "This is Hux. You and your friends are doomed. We will wipe your filth from the galaxy!”

    (TFA – “All remaining systems will bow to the First Order!”)


    Palpatine pretends to rely on negotiation until he can dispose of the pretence of democracy.

    By the ST era the First Order, like the post-Republic Empire, doesn’t negotiate, just kills those who oppose them.

    The irony is the Empire was voted in and formed out of the Republic technically legally. Both the Empire and First Order are genocidal towards non-conformists and dissenters, though.

    The First Order are a terrorist organisation attacking the established government from outside, a government that they take out by force in TFA.
    Adding to the irony (on watching Ep9) it seems the First Order turns out to be a front for Sidious’s Final Order hidden in the Unknown Regions. So in a way, they are much like the Republic’s false enemy - the Separatists - in the PT.

    Finally, Poe’s dialogue is a parody of negotiation.

    He is claiming to want to discuss things civilly but knows Hux won’t comply. Poe is trolling and buying time to power up and take out the Imperial Dreadnaught’s surface cannons.



    It seems some of the flaws in the Old Republic carried over to the New Republic in New canon. The Republic’s inefficiency and inability to act on external threats in the PT partly brought about the Empire in the name of Galactic security.

    The New Republic therefore were hesitant to militarise and repeat the mistakes of the past. They underestimated the threat level of the First Order, and are destroyed from outside the Republic by Starkiller Base in their hubris.


    Interestingly; where Padme in AOTC was the leader of the opposition against the formation of a Republic army, and strived to solve things through diplomacy, her daughter Leia in the OT and ST takes it as her responsibility to fight the Empire/First Order by force. As a high ranked member of the Rebellion in the OT and as the leader of the Resistance in the ST. It’s a grey area and debatable to what extent militarisation by the good guys is justifiable.





    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    TPM -

    Obi-Wan: “I have a bad feeling about this.”
    Qui-Gon: “I don’t sense anything.”
    Obi-Wan: “It’s not about the mission master. It’s something elsewhere... elusive.”
    Qui-Gon: “Don’t centre on your anxieties Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.”
    Obi-Wan: “But master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future?”
    Qui-Gon: “But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living force, young padawan.”

    ESB –
    Yoda (talking about Luke): “This one long have I watched. All his life as he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was! Hmph. What he was doing! Hmm."
    ...
    Yoda: “Through the force, things you will see. The future, the past. Old friends long gone.”

    TLJ –
    Kylo: “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.”
    ...
    Yoda: “Hmm Skywalker. Still looking to the horizon. Never here! Now! Hmm? The need in front of your nose! Hmm."



    Contrary to Kylo’s statements the message of the ST seems to be to embrace the positives of the past and learn by example from the negatives.

    Not to “kill the past” or focus too strongly on what is still to come.

    Focus on the present while still taking the lessons of the past and future on board. At least, that seems like a likely accurate reading of the films.
     
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    ESB - Han and crew powered-down and hiding from the Empire fleet
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Finn and crew sneaking onto the Supremacy
    [​IMG]
    Both groups are carrying out a hyperspace related mission.
    - Han's hyperdrive is broken and he is fleeing to Bespin for repairs. The plan fails when Lando betrays them and they are captured.
    - The Resistance fleet is being tracked through hyperspace jumps and these three are attempting to shut the tracker down. The plan fails when they are captured. Also involving DJ betraying them straight after this.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ESB - Vader's ship
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Snoke's ship [​IMG]

    ESB - Vader's flagship heading for Rebel base on Hoth
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Snoke's flagship headed for Resistance-occupied abandoned Rebel base on Crait
    [​IMG]


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Anakin in AOTC charges Dooku prematurely and gets tossed aside and force-lightinged
    [​IMG]
    Rey charges at Snoke headstrongly and gets tossed away
    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    (In Anakin's ROTS rematch Dooku ragdolled Obi-Wan and angered Anakin)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]






    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    (Rey and Kylo's hatred for Snoke)






    - The ROTS scene culminates with Anakin revenge-killing Dooku (who force-lightninged Anakin and took his arm in AOTC).
    [​IMG]
    - The TLJ scene culminates with Kylo killing Snoke (who force-lightninged Kylo earlier).
    [​IMG]

    Same blue saber.
    Anakin replaces Dooku as Sith apprentice.
    Kylo replaces Snoke as Supreme Leader.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  23. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Great stuff again, thank you!
     
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  24. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    AOTC - Anakin meditates in front of cloud yin and yang. At middle point of PT.
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Jedi Order emblem
    [​IMG]
    Jedi emblem (yin and yang again)
    [​IMG]



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AOTC - Jango: "Zam, there can be no mistakes this time."
    [​IMG]
    ESB - Vader: "Don't fail me again, amdiral."
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Snoke: "My disappointment in your performance can not be overstated."
    [​IMG]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    AOTC - Seismic charges (silence then "boom")
    [​IMG]
    TLJ - Holdo's lightspeed ram (silence then "boom")
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mace and Rey coming close to the dark side in ROTS and TLJ.
    Also; both Vader and Rey have Luke on the ground in ESB and TLJ.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    AOTC / TLJ (very similar music plays)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ROTS / TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Endings (AOTC/ESB)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Second last scene of TLJ
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2020
  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Another text analysis.




    TPM –
    Yoda: “How feel you?”
    Anakin: “Cold, sir.”

    ESB –
    Luke: “I feel cold... death.”

    TLJ –
    Rey: “It’s cold... it’s calling me!”

    Rise of Kylo Ren #2 –
    On sensing the Knights of Ren, Luke and Ben simultaneously say “(It feels) ...Cold.”


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Droid parallels

    Threepio (ESB when Luke and Han are missing in the Hoth snow-storm): “Oh dear, oh dear.”
    Threepio (ESB when Artoo is setting up to leave on Luke’s X-wing): “Take care of master Luke. And... do take good care of yourself. Oh dear, oh dear.”
    Threepio (TLJ when all the Resistance leaders besides Leia have been killed): “Oh dear, oh dear.”

    ----


    ESB -
    Threepio: “I’m almost afraid to ask, but does that mean shutting me down too?”
    Han: “No I need you to talk to the Falcon, find out what's wrong with the hyperdrive.”
    TLJ -
    Threepio: “I’m almost afraid to ask, but...”
    Poe: “Good instinct Threepio, go with that.”

    ----

    ESB -
    Threepio: “Sir, the odds of surviving a direct assault on an Imperial Star Destroyer are approximately...”
    Leia: “Shut up!”
    TLJ -
    THREEPIO: “... but this facility is such a maze of endless tunnels that the odds of finding an exit are..." POE:”Shh” ... THREEPIO: ”fifteen-thousand..." POE: “Hush” ... THREEPIO: “four hundred and twenty eight...”
    POE: “Shut up!”
    THREEPIO: “...To one.”


    ----


    AOTC -
    Anakin reunites with C3P0.

    Threepio: “Greetings. I am C...
    Anakin: Threepio?
    Threepio; “Oh! The maker!” And miss Padme.”

    TLJ -
    Luke reunites with R2-D2.

    Artoo: Beeps
    Luke: Artoo? Artoo!


    ----



    ANH –
    Threepio (to R2): “You watch your language!”

    ESB –
    Luke: “I need my lamp back, I’m gonna need it to get out of this slimy mud-hole.”
    Yoda: “Mud-hole? Slimy? My home this is!”

    TLJ –
    Luke (to R2): “Hey, sacred island, watch the language!”


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Corporate greed

    AOTC -
    Obi-Wan: “It is my experience that Senators focus on pleasing only those who fund their campaigns. And they are in no means scared of forgetting the niceties of democracy in order to get those funds.”

    TLJ -
    Rose: “And who do you think these people are? There is only one business that will get you this rich.”
    Finn: “...War.”
    Rose: “Selling weapons to the First Order.”

    DJ: “This person got rich selling weapons to the bad guys... oh... and the good!
    Finn, let me learn you something big. Good guys, bad guys, just made-up words. It’s all a machine partner. Live free. Don’t join.”


    ESB-
    Also; Lando in ESB runs a Tibana gas mining city.
    Lando makes a deal with the Empire but Vader ultimately betrays him too, and the Empire takes over Cloud City.

    TLJ -
    Rose: “My sister and I grew up on a poor mining planet. The First Order stripped our ore to fund their military, then shelled us to test their weapons.”



    Some common threads regarding greed here I think.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Jedi arrogance?

    AOTC-
    Obi-Wan: “His abilities have made him... well, arrogant.”
    Yoda: “Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones.”

    TLJ -
    Luke: “Now that they are extinct the Jedi are romanticised, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris.”


    All 4 Jedi relevant to the Ep2 scene - Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan talking about Anakin - fail, as described by Luke, in some way in the next PT film (ROTS).

    - Obi-Wan loses his apprentice to the dark side. (Failure)

    - Mace and Yoda overestimate their own ability to defeat Sidious.

    Mace: “The oppression of the Sith will never return! You have lost.”
    ...
    Yoda: “At and end your rule is. And not short enough it was.”

    Mace is killed and Yoda goes into exile. (Failure)

    - Mace tried to kill Palpatine without a trial, as Palpatine hoped he would. Mace’s “He’s too dangerous to be left alive” was the same thing Palpatine said to Anakin about Dooku. (Hypocrisy)

    - The Jedi side with a failing Republic and fail to sense Sidious’s rise to power. (Hubris)
    Also; Jocasta Nu: "If an item doesn't appear in our records... it does not exist!" Blind to the possibility Dooku erased the files from the archive.

    - Finally, Anakin brings it upon himself to save Padme’s life, and turns to the dark side. He is defeated by Obi-Wan due to his own arrogance, loses Padme, and goes into the mechanical suit. (Failure)


    Imo Luke in TLJ is being arrogant himself in thinking the Jedi must end. Projecting his own failure onto the whole history of the Jedi, not wanting to continue the cycle of violence.

    The history of the Jedi has much duality, but ultimately they strive for what is best for the galaxy, and their existence is Imo necessary for balance.



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    AOTC-
    Anakin: “You’re going to pay for all the Jedi you killed today, Dooku.”
    TLJ -
    Rey: “You’re going to pay for what you did!”


    Anakin takes revenge on Dooku by killing him in ROTS.

    Luke almost follows on his path in ROTJ but breaks the cycle and spares his father's life.


    Rey is afraid she is heading down the same path as Anakin (in TROS). When she sees a vision of herself on the Sith throne, and finds out her identity as Palpatine’s granddaughter. And after being stalked by Kylo much of the film, stabs Kylo while he is distracted by a connection to his mother – then realises it was Leia’s presence... shows Ben compassion and heals him.

    Luke implores her to finish her Jedi journey, and she eventually does. She resists joining Palpatine with morale support from Ben Solo, and calling on the spirits of the past Jedi Order, who she can finally hear at the end, she fulfils her destiny.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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