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ST THE LAST JEDI mirroring (specifically AOTC/ESB/TLJ)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Sharp! The red of Geonosis beneath the white of Hoth!
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  2. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Since this thread naturally includes a lot of large images, it would be appreciated if you could put the images in spoiler tags. It would make the thread much easier to read, as it won't load new images while one tries to read it. I'll go back and add tags to the earlier posts later today. [face_peace]
     
  3. kylokrennic

    kylokrennic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2020
    I apologise if this one has been covered, but I hope not. I'll try and explicate it my own way, without using imagery:

    Arguably, the "middles" of the trilogies are the most intriguing, because it's where the soup/fog thickens, and we see our characters really tested, undergoing perils of a more interior nature than the surrounding installments.

    To this end, I find it pretty interesting that the middles align with each other pretty well -- including the actual middle (or quasi-middle) of each movie!

    The middle of the middle is, well: the mid-point of each respective trilogy. Let's see what happens in each:

    In roughly the middle of the PT, Anakin has a nightmare/vision of his mother in trouble, and breaks with his Jedi mandate to effect a rescue of her, leaving the paradise of Naboo for the harsh, unforgiving world of Tatooine -- failing and becoming somewhat split-apart in the process.

    In roughly the middle of the OT, Luke goes into the cave and then envisions his friends in danger. Like his father before him, he leaves a place of sanctuary to effect a rescue, and confronts the fact that the villain *is* his father. He also fails and becomes in need of rescuing himself.

    In roughly the middle of the ST, Rey goes down into a hidden grotto and sees herself in the mirrored wall of a cave, even becoming trapped there for a while. Feeling lost and confused, she seeks solace in Kylo, and links her hand with his. In so doing, she glimpses a vision of a bright future, and decides to leave to make it real. However, like Anakin and Luke before her, she ultimately fails and has to retreat from her fantasy, learning that visions are unreliable and heroic interventions are laced with danger.

    The last one is more striking than I have explained it. What's especially poignant in TLJ is how there are no less than three pivotal hand-touching moments in the space of about ten minutes, all encompassing or engulfing this critical middle: the critical core of the movie and the trilogy. Luke puts his hands on the rock and makes contact with Leia, then Rey goes into the cave and touches the mirror, then she communes with Kylo and they touch hands -- very unexpectedly! In each, something pretty dramatic and revelatory happens, with the "shocker" of Rey and Kylo finding/creating something new in this vast mythic fabric. In a way, the light begins to bounce back, and hope is kindled once more.

    It's quite impressive, I think, that you have a protagonist taking flight because they are responding to a vision in roughly the middle of each trilogy. Each believes they are doing a good and necessary thing. Each seems to think they are left with no option. Each learns a lesson and is scarred from the process in some way. Each is then prepared to climb the ladder of enlightenment in the next movie or fall into darkness. I just love how monumental and game-changing the middle feels in every trilogy. Very cleverly structured. Star Wars is one of the most bewildering, engrossing, and satisfying things ever made.
     
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    @kylokrennic
    Well said. I've long felt like the real meat of the trilogies lies in the middle chapters.
    A lot happens in these middle films that reverberates backwards and forwards through each of their respective trilogies.

    And trivially, I noticed going in production order - within the AOTC DVD 25th chapter (of 50 AOTC chapters - so in the very middle of the OT-PT-ST) - Anakin is meditating looking out at clouds forming a yin and yang. This feels so appropriate.

    @TCF-1138
    No worries, thanks for making the effort.
    It probably makes it less messy that way :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  5. kylokrennic

    kylokrennic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2020
    Thanks, HD. Good to see you still doing your thing.

    There's a more specific resonance between AOTC and TLJ in their middle sections (the "turning point" of the trilogies) that's also worth noting:

    Anakin to Padme: I saw her as clearly as I see you now.

    Rey to Luke: Just now, when we touched hands, I saw his future. As solid as I'm seeing you.


    When you consider what happens in the third movie of each trilogy, it almost makes you wonder if Palpatine was somehow behind both visions...

    Indeed. There were some smart and adroit people who first pointed that out a few years ago (2012), predating even Mike Klimo, who may have seen the following thread and inserted the same observation into his Ring Theory:

    https://boards.theforce.net/threads/yin-and-yang-in-attack-of-the-clones.50003503/

    The earliest occurrence of the observation being made appears to have been the following thread (2010):

    https://boards.theforce.net/threads/yin-yang-in-the-clouds-on-naboo.31405857/
     
  6. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    That was me. ☯️
     
  7. DarthWolvo23

    DarthWolvo23 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Still looking forward to the TROS thread
     
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    SW mid-trilogy movies seem to be laden with symbolism.

    Bumping this for anyone who wants to discuss.
     
  9. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Re-watching TLJ at the moment in fact!

    Yoda mentions how Luke is always looking towards the horizon (never here), and it's a good point/hint in how and what made him do the things he did, I think.
    He saw something in Ben that hadn't happened yet, but was so distraught by it that, well we all know what happens, haha. It's similar to when he's talking to Rey, just before she leaves the island. He's talking about the future like he's already seen it, etc. Like he's fifty steps beyond everyone else.
    And this is partly why he is so jaded and guilt-ridden, shameful, distraught, etc. Yoda was completely right about it. He's not only looking towards the horizon the way we imagine in the original films. Even as Yoda set fire to the tree/sacred texts, Luke is looking like he's thinking about what's gonna happen next / in the future because of this.

    (I can strongly relate to this which is why I'm going on about it, lmao!)

    There's actually a word for that in psyciatry. This constant "there's an apocaplyse waiting to happen"- mindset.
     
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  10. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    ANH/TLJ. One hand making a distraction, the other making a guy to stumble over. Maybe Ben knew the story...and used Han against Snoke. 'Too much of your father's heart in you' was not liked, and transformed into a 'you're right about that' move.

    What's more, there's Snoke in those tanks. Halves of him. 'Vulnerable mid-section' says the TROS VD about Snoke's waist. Was that a part of the design? Did Palpatine know the Greedo story too?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Same by coincidence, I just finished my viewing.

    Interesting thoughts!

    Yes Luke's looking to the horizon was a key drive for the character, from the first binary sunset scene to Yoda's observation when they first meet.

    That is an appropriate psychiatry term, didn't know of that.

    One of his defining moments was acting on a significant negative premonition in ESB. And he almost turns when Vader threatens a dark future for his sister in ROTJ.

    Being honest I find it a little less believable that post-ROTJ Luke would act as rashly as he did with Ben Solo based on a premonition.
    He even echoes to Rey Yoda's "always in motion is the future" with his advice on her premonition about Ben Solo.
    The hut scene just seems a little more impulsive than the level-headed Luke we see at the end of ROTJ.

    But still there is a lot to chew on in the film. I prefer the other two ST entries but TLJ gives the trilogy more depth.

    I can see what parts of the character RJ based it on I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  12. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    @HevyDevy Y
    eah, I can def understand how it's not so believeable for everyone, or that they feel it's "out of character" - but personally it really resonated with me. As in, I know it looks/seems irrational of him, but I honestly think I'd have become the same. Not that I'm comparing myself to the OT Luke, but I can understand his doomsday-view on things and his overweight guilt. It's a real thing, often brought on by anxiety, lack of control and other things, (but not necessarily). You always feel like "I should have seen it coming", and you feel crazy because everyone else is like "oh it'll be fine, we'll manage do to This Thing" and you're sitting there, feeling like you already 100% know the answer that, Nope, you're not gonna fix This Thing. (Rey was so sure of being able to change Ben and Luke knew it was wrong, in his mind, it was not going to go well.)
    It feels like you're constantly seeing a truth in the future that nobody believes. And if you don't see the future, you end up trying to plan every waking second. And on to of that, Luke was feeling immensely guilty because it was a future he had brought on himself (in his belief atleast). Sorry, going off on a tangent here. But yeah.. Again, I understand it's not for everyone. But I really enjoyed it, and I saw a lot of the things I do too, that I know look completely irrational and silly to everyone else haha. (I'll give a IRL explanation I think many people will relate to or if not relate to, understand the context: I'm learning to drive in my adult years now. I'm having problems because I really need to un-learn that I can't foresee every little thing. I'm telling whoever I'm driving with that "I'm afraid to speed up because what if something comes into the road" or "I've checked that I'm cleared to drive at a junction, but what if something comes along anyway" that sort of nonsense. I know it's stupid. But there's this intense wish to know what's coming at me 20 feet away, 30 feet away, 100 feet away constantly. Meanwihle my instructor (or my dad), is like "well, then you'll deal with that IF it comes up, not a mile away." Which is basically what Yoda is trying to tell Luke.

    TLJ I guess is the typical middle movie thing. In LOTR, Two Towers isn't my fav story-wise, but it's still needed - and it's quite a funny movie.

    PS. That wasn't the actual psyciatric term, I don't know the english term for it. But there is one (and I'm guessing in english too), because it's a whole thing in itself.

    Yeah, I'm almost certain Yoda's quip is a reference to the binary sunset (to us viewers atleast). And then there's Luke watching the sun again right at the end of TLJ. =((=((:(

    Oh also, did I dream it or was there a post previously (in the other thread maybe) about scenes where you think it's some ship etc but then it turns out to be a different thing? Like the shirt ironing scene in TLJ.
     
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  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Fair enough, Im glad it resonated with you so well.
    SW is very open to personal perception, I know debating about Revenge of the Sith over the years made Obi-Wan's "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" seem prophetic lol. It is one of the most applicable lines in the films Imo. Like Qui-Gon's "Your focus determines your reality."


    I havent watched LOTR in a long time. Two Towers was enjoyable to me mostly because it introduced me to Gollum.

    Yeah both the PT and ST have questionable middle movies for me.
    Like very crucial to the narrative but not perfectly executed.
    I find it hard to sit through AOTC yet it has so much I find important to the saga in it. Its adds a lot of dreamlike symbolic depth but leaves me a little frustrated at it's end, where TPM and ROTS on finishing feel resolved. Hard to explain.

    Lol oh.

    Yeah. What confused me when I was younger was how did Yoda see that? He must have had strong force-vision.

    Not sure what post, not that I know of.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  14. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Haha yeah. That's what I like about these universes. There's something for everyone, and what someone else dislikes, someone else may find relatable, etc.
    You kinda cater it to your own personal needs and perceptions, it's true.
     
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  15. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    There's a lot of contextual mirroring which I think is more important than one-to-one that may not have a deeper meaning but be an accidental simialrity. For example

    Anakin wields a red and a blue saber symbolizing his struggle with the Dark and the Light side of the Force

    [​IMG]

    No character in TLJ wields two but Rey and Kylo are given to use each other's sabers to show that both characters struggle with Light and Dark

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So, context-wise, these characters mirror Anakin in ROTS.

    Also, I'd say that Force Bond is Padme's Ruminations on steroids





    They are both sitting, then get aware of feeling each other/seeing each other, get up, walk to the window/outside. However, what really matters is what it leads to going forward. Both bonds have profound impact on Anakin/Rey/Kylo decisions. Anakin disobeys the order to stay put during Palaptine arrest, goes to save Palpatine in order to save Padme, becomes complicit in Mace Windu's death, becomes a Sith. Rey goes to Kylo in order to turn him. Kylo kills Snoke to save Rey then takes the reigns of the FO.
     
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Nice!

    I touched on that red/blue duality for Anakin and the "chosen" two / dyad.

    Ruminations and the force bond is a good catch.
     
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  17. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    I also want to point the circle of life and Eros and Thanatos.

    Fire in SW symbolizes life and death, as do circles. So we have Rey and Kylo in a circular hut holding hands above the fire in almost like a Hindu wedding ritual manner (Eros, life, birth)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    while Qui Gon funeral pyre (Thanatos, death, rebirth) takes place in a circular temple. Pyre is also drawn from Hinduism (The Funeral Theme by John Williams has lyrics in Sanskrit):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Also this circle of life. Padme dead in the coffin (death, Thanatos):

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Rey enters maturity/adulthood (loose hair) in a coffin on the way to her love interest (life, Eros):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Both images obviously draw from Snow White.

    But to elaborate more, Padme's death separates her and Anakin, while Coffin Rey reunites with Ben:

    [​IMG]

    Again, life and death cycle, Eros and Thanatos.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  18. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    @vaderito Great catches, both of your posts! Well done! =D==D==D==D=

    Also that ambient score in the scene with Padme........whoa
     
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  19. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    The track's name is Padme's Ruminations. :)
     
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  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Have you not seen Revenge of the Sith? :confused: :p
     
  21. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    Years ago! The prequels were never my faves (not anything against them, they just didn't scratch that itch) - so I'm not very familiar with the OST. Perhaps I am due a re-watch! [face_thinking] I mean... Maul is pretty solid with that dual weapon hehe
     
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  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    The Phantom Menace has aged well. It feels mythical to me.
    Attack of The Clones is not bad, but I don't watch it as much.
    Revenge of the Sith made me a hardcore SW fan. It's a little rushed but there is a lot of meaning condensed into its runtime. They edited it meticulously. Let me know if you watch em again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
  23. chained_vulptex

    chained_vulptex Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 12, 2020
    I know we talked about this in either of the threads (I'm 99% sure atleas hah) but I couldn't find an actual post about it, so I thought I'd chip in. Sorry if it's already posted, I went back and checked but I might have missed a few spoiler tags.

    Luke could never stop looking towards the horizon.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (New Hope screencap I snagged online and re-uploaded. I don't have the movies on hand anymore, and certainly not in that quality! But the TLJ screencap is "mine", but free to steal!)

     
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  24. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    If we compare TLJ and AOTC, the dice seems to be saying 'Lars' at some backstory level (=not Lars, just the idea of Ben finding about having more family after being sent away) in retrospective...there's Rey Solana in the DoTF script and AOTC Cliegg was the father Anakin never had, just what Rey felt about Han (the father Luke never had, the freighter navigator of ANH, was TFA Han when he and Rey met)
     
  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    TFA - Finn ends the film injured and unconscious after trying to protect Rey.
    TLJ - Rose ends the film injured and unconscious after trying to protect Finn.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    More inversion between Vader and Kylo.

    TFA
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    ROTS
    [​IMG]

    TLJ
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    TROS
    [​IMG]
    You can actually see Kylo/Ben's facial scar disappear as Rey heals him.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Rey heals Ben and the "Kylo" persona fades with the waves.
    [​IMG]

    Sidious "heals" and enslaves Anakin after immolation in fire.
    [​IMG]
     
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