ST The Last Jedi wins 3 Saturn Awards - Including best screenplay

The screenplay (well, the dialogue at least) is certainly worth parsing, imo.

 

Thank God we don't take Saturn Awards seriously.

 

we?

 

TLJ could win Best Picture and some people would say that the Academy Awards are meaningless.

 

Mark won a Saturn award!? Well deserved! He gave the performance of his life in TLJ, and this is redemption for not even getting a nod for Best Supporting Actor at the Oscars.

OK, that news alone is enough to put me in a good mood all day.

 

Depends how you look at it really. TLJ certainly isn't without its many flaws.

 

Fantastic news - well deserved & congrats

 

I don't think anyone has claimed TLJ to be perfect. What counts as a "flaw" though is debatable. For instance, I found the Canto Bight sequence pretty flawed and unconvincing; I don't consider it a flaw though for Rey to be unrelated to the Skywalkers.

 

Really glad Mark won! All the awards for the movie were well deserved, but Mark’s especially.

 

By getting more votes than the other films. I heard it wasn’t even close. TLJ won by 14 par secs.

 

Quick response is they were beautifully made. Excellent dialogue and direction. TLJ looks fairly good on the surface production if unimaginative but I find it hard to argue that it was well made because it doesn't fit within it's own trilogy nor the overall saga.

Also on the script front I don't see how TLJ doesn't says script by George Lucas and Rian Johnson like TFA should say script by George Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan and JJ Abrams.

When doing remakes the original writers might not get credit but then they aren't always directly connected whereas with Star Wars it is.

Which is fine but in theory at least TFA and TLJ were supposed to not only fit with each other but the six movies before that. Context is key.

If this new trilogy was just outright stated and adjusted accordingly as being remakes which create a new continuity then the conversations are very different.

 

Whether TLJ was beautifully made it think comes down to each to their own opinion.

It could be argued ROTS is beautifully made if you wanna look at the visuals and imagination. but then you could look at TLJ and be put off by aspects because of certain choices and ideas, and yes choices does mean anything from scripting to visuals, then you may feel it wasn't particularly well made.

 

At last someone recognising the performance in such difficult circumstances and for a 3rd time too.

 

Indeed, Lucas got the same credit that Gene Roddenberry gets on most Star Trek films.
"Based on Star Trek, created by Gene Roddenberry."

As for the awards, I am scratching my head a bit over writing and editing as that wasn't the strongest suits of the film to me.
Mark is certainly deserving although a strong case could be made for Andy Serkis in War for the planet of the Apes and Hugh Jackman in Logan.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I've been a small-time but successful professional author for about 8 years, and follow advice from accomplished authors putting out top sellers every year (such as Brandon Sanderson). So, so many things in The Last Jedi just don't pass the basic litmus tests for what differentiates quality writing from painfully amateur content / fan fiction (e.g. a scene where Rey literally just narrated her feelings, or Luke's repeated flashback narration, or Finn declaring his desire to make the town hurt, or Rose dumping exposition about the casino place and what's wrong with it instead of them experiencing it along with the audience, like say Jabba's palace, where the characters went from wall trophies to erotic slaves to fighting pit entertainment to enslaved servants, to plots not adding up to anything coherent and even contradicting themselves, to Kylo breaking the fourth wall to rant about Rey's place in the story and answer fan theories which Rey herself was never shown to have about herself or had reason to have about herself), that I honestly can't fathom how anybody who writes professionally could not see the massive flaws here. It was so painfully obvious while watching, and not at all surprising when so many casuals like my family and friends exclaimed their bafflement at how much they didn't like it, along with how bad the audience reaction to this movie has uniquely been (despite some fan trolls claiming it's all the deplorables, who would be attacking wonder woman / black panther / rogue one / the force awakens in far greater numbers yet achieve nothing there). The writing managed to undercut itself at every corner, and made so many beginner mistakes in how to convey feelings and plot effectively. Then there's the whole ugly romance between the first female jedi lead and her abuser because she saw him without his shirt on and heard a short sob story, managing to make Attack of the Clone's romance actually look good by comparison, which seems an unbelievable feat a year ago.

Worse, the movie plagiarized heavily from ESB and ROTJ, far worse than TFA did from ANH. There were entire lines of dialogue being recycled. I also can't fathom what people are talking about regarding deconstruction or adding new things, something like 90% of major scenes were ripped from ESB and ROTJ and just done with less skill, with the exact same outcomes. Absolutely nothing changed except the story didn't move forward and lots of plot threads were incoherently dropped, or subtle stuff like characters and tech functionality were contradicted - often times within the very movie, where multiple ships were left to blow up with their captains, then it turns out they can be used for hyperspace ramming with their captains, as a specific major plot point not long after.

Who are the judges here? Are they accomplished writers? Ever since release it feels like there's been this group desperately using The Last Jedi to hang their pseudo-intellectual hat on, claiming to see something deep and special which isn't there just because it presented itself as if there was, or to be above all the 'stupid regular masses' who didn't like it.

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Agreed that Mark Hamill played a bitter old man who had Luke Skywalker's face and name and none of his characteristics pretty well. As he put it, Jake Skywalker, who he played quite well. Though anybody who has followed his work in Batman / Avatar The Last Airbender / etc will know that he's far more talented than many have had a chance to witness, and I'm glad that people finally got to see.

 

I worked in a production company where my job was to read screenplays earlier in my life. I've recommended movies that were produced. I was hired to write treatments for some adaptations earlier in my life. I agree with some of what you've shared regarding The Last Jedi screenplay but absolutely not all of it.

Writing for the page and writing for the screen are very different. In many awards competitions the screenplays are actually submitted as part of the process for analysis. Some are post-conformed. Others are not. I have a strong suspicion that some of the most painful cuts that didn't make the final cut of the film actually helped make Johnson's TLJ screenplay a more enjoyable read for people. Another quality you've omitted entirely is dialogue and humor. You may not enjoy either but these are subjective and others love both. Writers learn the established rules but as they grow they tend to prioritize some higher than others and bend others. You clearly have yours and show don't tell is very obviously one of yours from what you've shared. That's a common one and it's one I subscribe to as well but where I think there's leniency is when writing for age ranges as wide as Star Wars. Especially when getting into areas of social commentary. Johnson does utilize show don't tell at Canto Bight numerous ways that you've largely ignored though. Finn's binocular moment was precisely that and one can sense much of that thread is aimed at some of the youngest audiences watching. The kids function as audience surrogates. The Fathiers add an element of fantasy and adventure. BB8's antics were some of the moments in my theatre viewings that had kids laughing hardest and looking up at their dads like, "Did you see that, Dad?" I think a lot of writers can appreciate the challenge in producing mass entertainment that has different elements for different age demographics.

Again, some of the borderline meta elements are again massively subjective. You obviously loathe them but others don't. The arc of Luke Skywalker and how Ben Solo put a wedge between him and Rey is probably one of the most divisive blockbuster screenplay choices of the past 5 years. This is a dealbreaker for some and it sounds like it was for you and when the deal has been broken, suspension of disbelief is lost, and the gloves come off. In your case you're then bringing 8 years of writing background to attack it while ommiting its strengths. That's significant bias. Surely, on some level, you must acknowledge it as such. Others are the opposite. A lot of critics, and writers, and former writers, love the Luke Skywalker arc. They're doing the opposite as you. They're enjoying the subtext and bringing their own stories to it. Make no mistake about it. The subtext that exists in The Last Jedi is its ally and a lot of people that love it enjoy that about it. And of course the opposite is true. Those who hate it will frequently cite that they aren't seeing what others see.

Your complaint about Rey is one I've addressed many times before. It's not like she goes into the cave and asks, "Who are my Jedi parents?" It's not that she's upset that they're "nobodies." Rey is defensive when people probe, both physically and emotionally. When Luke asks her where she's from she says "Nowhere." In her first trailer she referred to herself as "No one." She's cutting off Kylo Ren the same way she did Luke in the tree because she's not comfortable with this conversation. She's telling him, "They were nobodies" as though to say, "Why are you going on about this?" And he's not saying it for any other reason than to make her feel small enough to value him and his offer to rule alongside him. He's been chipping away at that all movie long. He's telling her that she should understand killing parents because hers were awful. He's telling her that nobody wants her except for him. It's textbook emotional manipulation because he is still the antagonist in the story and he is in full Kylo Ren mode there. There's not REALLY a romance between them in The Last Jedi beyond the hut moment. Which comes off more like Ben Solo finally emerging and letting his guard down and consoling Rey at the opportune time and Rey enjoying it and wanting physical contact with him. It plays out more like a rebound than anything else. It complicates perhaps where things will go if they spend more time together in IX but all of this talk of VIII as a romance is disingenuous. Rey is hiding info from both Luke and Ben and making choices that she feels are best for her and the future fate of the Resistance.

It's laughable to say that The Last Jedi plagiarized at all within a saga that clearly started as a soft reboot. that's like saying Creed plagiarized Rocky. This was their intent from the start. This likely came from the powers at the top. Soft reboots have long been the rage in Hollywood. It's not like this is a different property that's just revisiting some of the old beats. This is the first Star Wars trilogy in over 10 years in an era where Hollywood remakes everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Johnson himself who in fact convinced Lucasfilm that for IX to be the best it could be and the most fresh and original as it could be, that moving past the iconic beats of TESB & ROTJ in one movie, rather than spreading them out over 3 was the way to do so. More than that, he absolutely did explore the "what if" during these parallels to the past. We see what happens if the guards actually did something. We see what happens if the villain survived to take the throne and didn't turn simply by killing his boss. We see what would happen if Hoth wasn't as successful. We see what would have happened if Yoda truly didn't want to train Luke and he had to work at it more and if we realized Yoda had more reservations and issues. All of the ST has greatest hits elements mixed in to reach new and younger audiences but TFA is unquestionably more of ANH directly than TLJ is any other existing film. The fact that you have to cite two (and there are ROTS elements as well) shows that it's more of a tapestry than a direct carbon copy of any one thing. Your claim that 90% of the scenes are ripped off is absurd beyond the most zoomed out view of one sentence scene/purpose descriptions while ignoring dialogue, different character dynamics, motivations, and complications. Remember that time when Luke and Vader were talking while he was training with Yoda and Yoda didn't know? Remember when Yoda was shut off from the Force and didn't want to help train any more Jedi because of the temple massacre? Remember when Han beat Boba Fett in that side-scrolling fight? Remember that time that there was all of that bridge drama between Ackbar and Wedge and Ackbar pulled out that crazy kamikaze move? Remember when nobody came to help the Rebels when they called for help? Remember those cops in Empire and how those kids helped create all of that Chaos? Remember Han's plan at Cloud City that was going to save all of the Rebels? Who can forget that time when Vader and Luke joined forces and took down the Emperor's guards? Remember that time when Yoda came back to help in the end? Me neither.

Falling back onto anecdotes and the lone Rotten Tomatoes score, which is an outlier in even even Magnar's data table, and far below the average score, is beneath you. We all have anecdotes of casuals. Guess what? My best friend works at an Animation studio and everyone there loved it so much they have a screening again for it recently where I literally overheard people talking about how they didn't understand why some hate it so much. Anecdotes are as meaningless for true perception as Youtube comments. Okay, I take that back. NOTHING is worse than Youtube comments or Youtube view bait aimed at tapping into fan rage.

Tech functionality is one of those areas of writing that some writers and fans are huge on to the extent where holes in logic are dealbreakers. Obviously, any speculative fiction writer, alternative history writer, hard scifi writer, or political thriller writer whose currency is plot and tech detail is going to have FAR more issues with this script. For others it's just technobabble or magic to explore interesting setups for drama. I think you'll find that there are more people in the latter camp than you realize.

The other clever trick Johnson employed that probably helps him on first viewings and initial reads -- which I believe you dislike -- is that as much subtext as he invites at times he still makes a point to work an aspect of his primary thematic exploration into the dialogue in some way. For some writers such as yourself this might be too on the nose. It might be a cardinal sin. For others it's a solid way to ensure that even on a first viewing, or an initial read, or with younger audiences, that some of the primary themes being explored aren't missed. The Last Jedi presents quickly as thematically rich for a lot of viewers because of this and if any of the themes connect it forms a bond with the viewer. I'm sure reading it likely benefited the experiences of some the same way.

Last thing I'll say ties back into the subtext I've commented on earlier. You don't get to tell an a man in his 50s who's watching The Last Jedi, and perhaps hasn't talked to his family in years because of a mistake he made, that there's nothing for him that's psychologically interesting to him in The Last Jedi. You don't speak for all veterans of war who's tired fighting and literally living out on a farm and who wants to be left alone that there's nothing interesting for him there. I'm going to break my own rule about anecdotes but I have relatives who served who find it difficult to watch war films to this day. They took something very different out of The Last Jedi than I did. You don't get to decide for someone who's lost faith in their religion after being raised in it that there's nothing profound for them in The Last Jedi. You don't get to tell an atheist who wishes no ancient texts had survived at all and that all religion was gone to see how the world might be different that there's nothing for them in The Last Jedi. Why? Because life experiences add a lot to The Last Jedi. Star Wars has always benefited from this. Some of the people I know who have the strongest bonds with Star Wars, myself included, have complicated relationships with their fathers. Some of the people I know who enjoy The Last Jedi the most have come to better understand their father now that they have kids of their own and are 30-50 years of age. Some of them have deliberately chosen to live life differently than their fathers but still catch themselves in moments where they realize they are doing some of the same things regardless. The Last Jedi has people who love it not only because of deconstructionism but because it's personal to them in ways that it isn't for someone like you. It will continue connecting to some for the rest of the time for the same reasons.

 

TLJ will be one of those cases where the future generations, not too attached to what Luke was supposed by the current generations to do/be, are going to recognize it as one of the high points of the saga.

 

Well earned across the board!

 

Yes, Mark Hamill was great in TLJ! I just love his work with Rey and Kylo at the end, he deserved this.

The editing is nothing special to me, but I guess it's better than TLJ's competition this year.

And the screenplay. It works OK on a micro scale, it's less adequate not only within the nine part saga, but the trilogy also. TBH, TFA won it also so it doesn't mean much.

In fact, I'm glad Blade Runner 2049 won the best SF film award, it definitely was the best last year, but Hamill made it all better.