main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Lit The Legends Equivalents of Snoke

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth-Darth Binks, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Darth-Darth Binks

    Darth-Darth Binks Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Snoke, technically, is derived from many sources, and the source that stands above the rest are cut ideas for Emperor Palpatine, namely that he's tall, is humanoid but not human, looks exceedingly old but not decrepit, has bright blue eyes, wears a gold robe, mostly just communicated through holograms, was a puppet of somebody else, and is a Master of the Dark Side of the Force, but unlike Darth Vader, probably didn't identify with any one movement.

    But that can't be the only source, not at this point.

    So what other sources are there?

    Well...

    I think that first of all, it's clear that Snoke wasn't always meant to be Force-grown, because he was said to be "handsome in his youth" and "a couple of hundred of years old", unless Andy Serkis was talking about Darth Sidious, which are both tremendously easy to believe, given what young Ian McDiarmid looked like and that Force-sensitives living tremendously long lifespans is the most normal thing in the world, but otherwise, I would think that some of the plans for Snoke changed over the years, and the real reason why he knew so much about the Second Death Star events would boil down to either the fact that like Yoda, Snoke could see things happening from far away, or that like Darth Vader, he could pluck the knowledge from Luke's head.

    But we'll start by focusing on the Snoke that we got, shall we?

    A very close equivalent to the Snoke as a whole, both what we ended up getting and what we were likely supposed to get, would be Atha Prime, a character created by Kenner during the 1980s to continue the Star Wars toy lines. Though he's technically not a Legends Character unless we're talking about Zeta Magnus, if we were to combine everything we know about Atha Prime with that of Zeta Magnus and Lord Shadowspawn, we pretty much get Snoke. Atha Prime himself was described as a "Ruler of the Dark Worlds" like how Snoke ruled the Unknown Regions. He was an arbiter of the Clone Wars, and though he was exiled for unknown reasons (remember, back in those days, the Clone Wars was most probably envisioned as a Jedi rebellion defending senators who were against Palpatine against Shocktrooper cloned warriors, meaning that it's likely that Atha Prime wasn't exiled for opposing Palpatine but rather, Palpatine gave Prime's clones a "Night of the Long Knives"), he emerged from exile and apparently ended up helping Imperial Loyalists after the Emperor's death, who apparently made him a mobile command post in the form of a gigantic Star Destroyer

    Atha Prime's status as an arbiter of the Clone Wars, genetics terrorists, and grower of clones, likely implied that he himself was a clone, something that Zeta Magnus serves to confirm. Zeta Magnus was the closest thing to a canonical Atha Prime we got, and he was genetically engineered by the Arkanian Dominion's scientists to be a super-soldier. While Snoke doesn't really resemble any one kind of Star Wars species, he does most closely resemble a weird kind of Arkanian offshoot. The Arkanian Offshoots, unlike baseline Arkanians, were often almost devoid of melanin, five-fingered, and tall. Also, remember that Arkanians came in even more varieties than we really saw in Legends, so there's a chance that there's some kind of race of Arkanians out there that looks like Snoke.

    But Zeta Magnus was not the first attempt to make Atha Prime canon. An earlier attempt was to consolidate him with Lord Shadowspawn, and Snoke has some particular overlaps with Lord Shadowspawn as well. Shadowspawn was what Lord Cronal called his puppets, namely Nick Rostu wearing the Shadow Crown for Cronal's control. Cronal needed that puppet because he was weak, and was planning on using Shadowspawn as a tool to take over Luke Skywalker's body. Likewise, Supreme Leader Snoke was the puppet of Darth Sidious, who was physically weak and planning to possess the body of a Jedi.

    But that's covering Atha Prime. There are more characters whom Snoke bears semblance to, such as Joruus C'baoth. Joruus was the rogue clone of a Jedi Master from long ago, and he was likely meant to be the same character as the Guardian, or the Guardian was another Jorus clone. Whatever the case, the Guardian's task was to watch over Palpatine's stuff in Wayland, but Joruus, whether for reality or in his insanity, seemed to believe he killed him. Like Snoke, he heavily specialized in telekinesis and telepathy, knew Luke personally and seemed to support Luke's Jedi endeavors, and sought the son of Han and Leia to train to his ideology, which asserted that Force-sensitives had a right to reign over those who were not, which Supreme Leader Snoke also seemed to believe.

    Then we have Supreme Prophet Kadann. The character who operated under this name was many things, namely because there were two of them. The fake, Rajah Ubooki, was prone to using tricks to make himself seem more imposing, such as Snoke does with his blood-red throne room, and he was actually working as a puppet for, again, Cronal, to keep the warlords divided and the masses united before he went out of control and tried to take over the Imperial Remnant for himself. As for the real Kadann, he was a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side, seeing value in both sides of the Force. Like Snoke's depiction in The Force Awakens, he was soft-spoken, and was not prone to displays of power, before the personality retcon in The Last Jedi.

    And we have the Sith Emeperor, who had also specialized heavily in telepathy to the point in which he was able to sculpt Revan to fit his desires, and he had many puppets, his essence partially divided across them.

    Then we have Lumiya, who was the Sith apprentice of Darth Vader, who trained Jacen Solo to become Darth Caedus, just as Snoke trained Ben Solo to become Kylo Ren.

    And of course, it's similar to how Shimraa Jamaane, the Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong, was the puppet of the sadistic and powerful Vong Shaper, Onimi.

    Snoke seems to have been many things in pre-production: Possibly an alien possessed by Palpatine but not a clone (which would explain his knowledge of the DS2 events, though that could easily be explained by how omniscient a lot of Force users are), possibly a warlord and guru from the Unknown Regions who helped the Imperial Remnant (which would fit with hints in the books, but the hints could have meant anything), possibly a former Imperial Inquisitor and ex-Jedi who resented both the Republic and Empire (which would suit the Mengele imagery, but that could have been meant to fit with the idea that the First Order is like Nazis hiding in South America), and possibly even the former Darth Plagueis (which would explain why the arrangement was like the opera's and why the melody was similar to the melody that played during Palpatine's story, but that could have been a Palpatine hint too). The only point was that Snoke was the "uber-villain" who would be indirectly responsible for much of the conflict, so tons of ideas were seemingly placed on the table.

    The very first of these seems to be nicknamed "Uber" as a "working title". "Uber" was apparently an ancient Sith ruler who was locked in a tomb long ago, one that could only be unlocked with the crystal in Luke's lightsaber. But his mind still worked, and from afar, had been affecting various darksiders, motivating Talon and later others to do whatever it took to find him and release him..

    With this in mind, Uber's design seems to come from Marka Ragnos, and his role in the story seems to come from both Ragnos and Exar Kun. Ragnos was an ancient Sith leader whose spirit persisted in a tomb for a long time, and he was being recovered by the Imperial Remnant, Exar Kun's spirit was trapped in a tomb in Luke's Jedi Temple on Yavin IV, and he communicates with Kyp Durron, a pupil of Luke's who Kun was turning to evil.

    So these are the Legends roots of Snoke. Let me know in the comments which ones do you think fit Snoke the most, or which ones would have been the most interesting, or which ones do you think they were shooting for to begin with!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  2. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    A lot content to unpack here. But I will remark on the one the resonates the most with me.

    Lumiya seduced a Skywalker to the Dark Side, just as Snoke did. Both were hiding a secondary agenda and another Dark Side Master from their apprentice.

    Unlike Ben Solo, Jacen Solo never truly discovered the existence of Darth Krayt and the One Sith. He only saw the vision of the Dark Man, whose rise he was determined to halt. At the end though, he only managed to slow Krayt's ascension by a century or so. The true Dark Lord of the Sith still triumphed in the end.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
     
    ColeFardreamer and PCCViking like this.
  3. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Perfect writeup, couldn't have said it any better and you even added some nods I didn't consider yet. I am sure he is a combination of all you mentioned. Which writer or storygroup member though based him on what influence from Legends will remain a mystery but there really are traced of all of them in him. Be it directly as Legends inspiring canon or as the same story beats and character hooks that Legends used from Myth and storytelling 101 are repeated by canon for him without pulling it from Legends.


    I'd even add a few more Legends characters to the Snoke menagerie:

    +Abeloth: Back when conceptualised as some ubervillain, Sith God (probably left handed) entity or else this character had Abeloth like qualities for the story as can be seen in Art of TFA. The same concept briefly resurfaced in TROS planning as post Snoke main villain instead of Palpatine before going for Palpatine. Be it the Son of Mortis (another possible influence not from Legends) or a new character in the tradition of both.

    +Brakiss (YJK books): A character that has history with Luke and tries to corrupt the next generation to the dark side, has a mobile command Shadow Academy and kidnaps children as the FO does. He too has a female enforcer (Nightsister) where Snoke had Phasma.

    +Lord Hethir, High Procurator of Justice: Loves fancy title and has a worldship as yet another oversized moving command post, also kidnaps children to train them in the Force and is tied to a mysterious entity as Snoke was before it was settled to be Palpatine. Namely Waru, who is as golden as Snokes robes!

    +Valkorion from SW TOR MMO also is a Sith Emperor loving to use remote control and puppets, speaking and acting through others.

    +Last but not least there is Jerec, former Jedi turned Darksider who trained his own cadre of Forceusers and Darksiders and hunts for artifacts for he is a former Jedi archeologist exploring the mysteries of the Force.


    The ST for all its flaws and high points really did an incredible job of summarising the entire EU and condensing it into a trilogy. For that alone one has to applaud it.
     
  4. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I can't think of a direct parallel, but the first person who comes to mind is Nomi Plo for some reason.

    Lumiya and Snoke have very different aims and agendas. Krayt wasn't her master, and while Krayt saw Caedus as a useful distraction, that was it. If Caedus had won his war, Krayt and his order would have been eventually destroyed. I don't get that impression with Kylo and Snoke.
     
  5. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
  6. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Wait what? How has nobody pointed to that one yet in all the years since TFA?

    It'd have spoiled the Jedi Prince influence right away!
     
  7. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Interesting. Much thought went into that. Sadly I doubt we'd ever know since the ST is a creative mess.



    Snoke in TROS is essentially a Sithspawn creation and acts as kind of grand Inquisitor and quasi Sith Master to Kylo's quasi-Sith Apprentice-like status.

    From what I read on wookie with all the "Shadowspawn" stuff from Pena's attempt to canonized Kenner's Atha Prime and even Trevorrow's Sith overlord character called Tor Vallum who was the Sith master of Darth Sidious which sounds pretty close to Tar Valon . I get too many Wheel of Time vibes in my head at the moment. I do think the ST was looking to Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings and other fantasy properties for inspiration and just mining the old EU(which they terminated that continuity and regulated to Legends) for ideas.

    Not even sure if Tor Vallum was repurposed into "the Oracle" but that was deleted too,and likely many changes were made in post production or just never made it. Snoke in the film looked to be nothing more than a hyper-Force sensitive gigantic lab created lifeform, something akin to a homunculus or golem-type which is popular in alchemy and the occult.

    *

    Snoke is the English word for the Dutch word for the pike fish, which is fresh water carnivorous fish. Its also used for the snake mackerel found in the southern hemisphere. Maybe the creators liked that kind of fish came up with that name independently. Whether they make Snoke meaning something in the Sith language remains to be seen, but it is kind of a silly name, at one point they had Han make fun of the name in the deleted scene in TFA or something like that.
     
  8. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    *looks up from something he was writing*

    Don't mind me.
     
  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Maybe Snoke is Waru, all that gold mush or whatever hes made of crammed into an organically constructed body.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
    ColeFardreamer likes this.
  10. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    That'd explain why the FO kidnaps so many children... he is still very hungry as in Legends!

    Waru pressed into shape: "Look, I am beautiful now!"

    [​IMG]

    Young Snoke on Spongebob during his youth... before Luke lightsabered him up.
     
    PCCViking likes this.