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The Mandalorian The Mandalorian 2.05 - Chapter 13 - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Todd the Jedi , Nov 26, 2020.

?

Grade the Episode

Poll closed Dec 4, 2020.
  1. 10

    50.9%
  2. 9

    28.3%
  3. 8

    8.2%
  4. 7

    6.3%
  5. 6

    3.1%
  6. 5

    1.9%
  7. 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 3

    0.6%
  9. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 1

    0.6%
  1. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Thinking about it, in the 1st season after Mando drops off Baby Yoda to Warner Herzog (can't remember the character name) why didn't they immediately take the Child to the Imperial Base thats so near that you can drive to it or even if it wasn't you can still fly a TIE fighter too. I mean they are literally operating on the child in the town when obviously, they've got a base with better facilities round the corner.
    Just imagine if Mando had gone in all bad ass to rescue the child in town only to find there's no one there and its empty :boba::D

    I do need a reason more than the writers probably hadn't thought that base up in S1 ?
     
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  2. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Because they had a sufficient facility right there and wanted to extract the blood as quickly as possible to get it to Gideon? And because they had no idea that the bounty hunter was going to have a massive fit of guilt and come back to kill everyone and take the kid back? This isn’t hard. There was no need for them to spend a half hour or whatever driving the kid back to that lab.
     
  3. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    That makes no sense. You're not going to take the child that you want to do experiments on to your secret lab where you've been doing them previously but will instead do it there in town that's easily targeted. Then take that blood back to that same base anyway. Think about that for a second just a tiny second
     
  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I agree which is kinda sad as it breaks the streak of him appearing in every major project Filoni was involved in.
     
  5. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    It makes perfect sense unless you’re desperately grasping at straws. First, they weren’t doing experiments on the kid. They just needed his blood. And they had a lab/ facility right there and wanted to get started immediately.

    Second, Nevarro wasn’t exactly a totally secure place. It’s got lava tides, criminals running around all over the place, and huge flying venomous reptiles. Driving isn’t totally safe. So perhaps they were preparing to have a security convoy?

    Third, and this is probably the simplest and most important point, Mando came back like an hour later. They may have had plans to rush him to the lab soon after they got the sample. And while they were getting ready to leave, they figured “let’s extract some of his blood now.”

    It makes perfectly fine sense. And I have to say, this may be the biggest stretch of a “plot hole!” complaint I have ever seen. I mean, why didn’t the villains waste time unnecessarily before taking the thing they wanted? Is that really the critique you want to go with?

    Just think about this for a tiny second longer.
    That’s perfectly plausible too. And I like it better.

    In that context, what if we’re facing a massive retcon here too, and Yoda was referring to Grogu when he said “there is another”? I’d much prefer that stay as Leia, but I wouldn’t put it past Filoni and co. to do it. Probably not, but it’s possible...
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  6. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    I have thought about it a second longer and if you don't think that's a plot hole then you are the perfect fan for Disney because no matter what they throw on the screen no matter how bad or contradictory you will accept it
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  7. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I just offered an entirely logical explanation for why the villains used the lab they had right there in their hideout to take the thing they wanted as quickly as possible. You offered nothing in response. It makes perfect sense and you’re insisting, without even the semblance of a logical argument, that it “makes NO sense.” Unless you’re trolling - in which case forget it - this is an epic stretch of a complaint. There’s probably a reason why nobody has raised it until now. Because the villains taking what they want right away is logical and realistic, and the option you’re arguing for is not logical or realistic. Especially if you allow for the fact that they were likely planning to take him to the lab shortly thereafter anyway. So...why not take his blood right away?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  8. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    No what you said makes no sense. The Villains have a lab that's only a short drive away from Town. As soon as they got the baby they should've taken him there. They chose not to because well reasons and the ones you attempted to give made no sense in the context of the story.
    You have no problem with it hence why I said you are accepting it.
    Also for you of all people to call a person a Troll is hypocrisy at its best and worst.
     
  9. Sproj

    Sproj Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2019
    You do realise there are merits to both arguments here right? It isn't it MUST be this or it MUST be that. You have been provided logical reasons why it isn't a plot hole and you have raised legitimate reasons why it could be argued.

    It makes sense to take the baby straight away to get him out of there BUT it also makes sense they weren't able to due to having to wait for transport, it looked like it was a covert operation AND there were heaps of bounty hunters still after this kid don't forget. Couple that with the dangers as mentioned from the planet itself, it makes sense they weren't able to take the kid straight away until they had a secure transport option. It also makes sense they really should have said transport option there once they knew the baby was en route, if indeed they did know before Mando showed up on their door step.
     
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  10. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    That's certainly possible but we know from the chase scene how near that base is. It would be easy enough to take Gro-gu there. Hell they couldve used a Tie fighter amd flown him if they'd wanted too. Plus it would seem like harder work bringing all the medical equipment into town and probably attract more attention too
     
  11. Sproj

    Sproj Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2019
    Yeah of course, that makes sense but there are possibilities to mean it wasn't necessarily a plot hole. I am happy enough to let it slide even though I can understand why it might cause some frustration.
     
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  12. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    That's fair :)

    I think my frustration is more that Mandalorian could really be a great classic show but the writers are cynically taking the quick and easy path. Now it doesn't make it bad but it doesn't make it memorable either.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  13. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Not only is it not a plot hole, it makes far more sense the way if was done in the show than the way proposed.

    1. Herzog had a mini-lab in his hideout already. So why not extract the blood right away in case there’s a problem on the way to the big lab? You take the high value thing right away. That’s the opposite of the cliched villain habit of delaying until the good guys find a way. And in this case, the Imperials didn’t think there were any good guys around...

    2. They are ex-imperials and are therefore laying low. Flying around in TIEs and driving around in transports with stormtroopers is not the way to lay low. So it’s safe to say they could have been planning a secure and hush hush transfer to the base/ lab soon after. It’s only after Gideon smells blood that he arrives on his one TIE fighter, and a force of arms, as he deems the show of force worth the risk because of the high value of the target.

    3. Taking Grogu to an obvious Imperial facility may not have been their plan, in the interest of laying low. A nondescript back alley bunker makes more sense from a security perspective. I mean, what if the New Republic discovered the base before Greef and co. did? They could’ve blown it to bits like they did that space station last season. They are far less likely to find and blow up an old hideout in the back alleys of a town.

    4. Again, time. Din Djarin returns to raise hell in what seems like an hour’s time. We don’t know what the Client was going to do next because Din didn’t give him any time. In the meantime, they were snatching some blood.

    5. Last but not least, the Imperials had no flipping idea that a bounty hunter was going to risk his life, reputation, job and pay for a bounty he just delivered (and after having been paid with a ton of beskar that is of special importance to that bounty hunter’s culture). They felt secure in that bunker. They live amongst criminals that’ll take their money, and that might attempt to take Grogu if they left the hideout. There’s also no hint of do-gooders around that might attempt a break-in and disrupt their plans. And so did what they did. The drive to the lab would’ve been less secure than using the lab in their secret hideout. That’s it. That’s a perfectly logical reason for what they did.

    I think it’s totally fine to point out plot conveniences, etc. I’ve done that regarding other episodes in this show. But in this case, what is presented on screen is simply more reasonable than the alternatives being suggested by the critic. It’s a massive stretch, and certainly not evidence of the creators “cynically taking the quick and easy path.”
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  14. Sproj

    Sproj Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2019
    I am happy to go with all this but I would argue it was more than an hour. He has time to go back to see the Guild, get a new suit of beskar armour and go to the ship. That would likely take a few hours, so the imperials really could have gotten rid of the kid if they wanted to. Although, I reckon a more likely reason in support of your view that you haven't mentioned is that Herzog's character didn't actually know there was a base there. I don't think Gideon had told him and Herzog's troopers were pretty dirty and roughed up compared to the shinies at the lab and under Gideon.
     
  15. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    That’s an excellent point too. It’s possible, even, that the scientist was aware of the base (and it seems may have been primarily loyal to Gideon), and that he was also keeping that information from the Client. Quite probably due to significant trust issues between the Client and Gideon. Which is further supported by Gideon deciding to wipe The Client and his entourage out, and the poor state of his stormtroopers’ armor relative to Gideon’s crew. In this context, Gideon and the scientist may have simply been using the Client as a convenient inroad into the bounty hunter’s guild. They found his contact with Greef and the guild useful for tracking down Grogu. And once he was tracked down? They didn’t need the Client anymore and so they kill him. And in the process neutralize a potential rival, and neutralize someone who had critically sensitive information about Grogu and his midichlorian bounty.

    That’s all to simply say that it’s clearly NOT a plot hole because there are so many reasonable explanations for the way things went down. I would even say that it is objectively not a plot hole, if we are respecting the definition of that term.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  16. Darth Megatronus

    Darth Megatronus Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 17, 2020
    I think it’s a Joseph Smith reference.
     
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  17. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    We don’t need to speculate because the episode gave us a reason why they were doing what they were doing. The Client wanted Dr. Pershing to extract the material as quickly as possible and get rid of the Child because he could no longer “ensure they’re safety.” Gideon on the other hand wanted the Child brought back to him alive. So Dr. Pershing is trying to satisfy both of them by extracting a sample while also keeping the Child alive as he told Mando. This is basically just a case of the underling undermining the boss because he gets nervous. The Client is then killed for his incompetence later on. Very realistic IMO.
     
  18. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    If it takes ten minutes to draw the blood and twenty minutes to drive to the base, that also has a lab, and is far more secure, why not take him there first. Let's see? 20 minute drive and 10 minute blood draw in far more secure facility, or 10 minute blood draw in unsecured facility and 20 minute drive? I'll take him to the base first.
     
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  19. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Right, exactly. Should've been more specific about that earlier. There's a clear difference of opinion between the Client and Dr. Pershing that's forecast in the first episode, and then during the third episode during the conversation Din overhears. The Client wants the blood, and doesn't care if the Child lives or dies. Dr. Pershing wants the Child alive. And the events of last season with Gideon and the Client, and the hologram recording of Dr. Pershing this season, demonstrates that Gideon was of the same mind as Dr. Pershing. So this also reinforces my speculation that Dr. Pershing and Gideon were aligned with each other, and may have been using The Client as a convenient means to their end. Otherwise, why would there have needed to be an "agreement" between Dr. Pershing and The Client, as we heard in the first episode? Dr. Pershing says "that's not what we agreed upon." So there was an MOU or something between The Client and Dr. Pershing. And as we now know Dr. Pershing is/ was working directly for Gideon, it's clear that Gideon struck an agreement with the Client on securing the child ALIVE. And the Client shrugged that agreement off, and included provisions for snatching up the Child dead, if needed, and getting some of its blood quickly (and likely, for himself). Gideon is then alerted to this (by Dr. Pershing or just the clear botch job the Client made of it), and Gideon then decides to off him. This is quite possibly the most realistic socio-political-criminal dynamic we've ever seen in Star Wars. And yet...it's still not immune to half-baked "plot hole" bomb throwers. It's not a plot hole whatsoever.
    See above, and @Darth Chiznuk's point, which is stronger than mine. The Client and Dr. Pershing/ Gideon weren't fully aligned. The Client wanted to extract some blood and be done with the Child, while Dr. Pershing (and Gideon) wanted it alive so they could continue experimenting (presumably, out of the nearby lab in the base). This makes it crystal clear to me that the lab in the nearby base was already envisioned when season one was written. Gideon and his troops came from the base with the lab, and The Client operated out of Nevarro city. The Client wanted to snatch some blood before the whole business ended up in Gideon's hands. Dr. Pershing was caught in the middle. They lost the Child. Gideon decides that The Client did him dirty or was plain incompetent. And he reduces the guy and his crew to ashes. This is the way...it happened. And it's all completely airtight.

    If you want hyper-simplicity (one bad guy takes thing to other bad guy base) that's a stylistic issue you have an issue with, not a logical plot problem. The show was giving us something a bit more complex and mysterious. Bad guys in conflict with each other, and with different motives and interests. This led the little fish (the Client) to keep the Child in the hideout, when the big fish (Gideon) likely wanted him back at the base.

    And...there's always a bigger fish. A big blue fish, to be precise. A big blue fish called THRAWN.

    Man, this show is great. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  20. Fin McCool

    Fin McCool Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2015
    I think this is right.

    Also, do we know Gideon is at the Imperial base when Mando brings the Child to the Client? Gideon could be on his cruiser for all we know. If so, there is logic to keep the Child with the Client and Dr. Pershing until Gideon is ready for it. As I see the arrangement, the Client is Gideon's straw purchaser. Dr. Pershing, Gideon's agent, has bailment status and possesses the Child when Gideon does not. Dr. Pershing gets to work and is entrusted with the Child until he delivers it to Gideon, under the terms set by Gideon. Although the answer is unknowable, it is conceivable Dr. Pershing started taking blood from the Child at the Client's safehouse because he received no instructed to the contrary from Gideon. I get the points to the contrary, but ambiguity does not supply a plot hole.
     
  21. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2014
    I can't say I understand what the Client ever had to offer that made him beneficial or convenient to the proceedings. The base, which is basically in walking distance, couldn't spare five guys?
     
  22. Kole

    Kole Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Perhaps Gideon was initially trying to keep a low profile by using the client as a proxy. Gideon doesn’t seem to be the most popular guy around the galaxy, an idea underscored by Bo Katan in her little chat with the imperial captain. I imagine the existence of that base was a well-kept secret until Gideon rather dramatically decided enough was enough circa episode 7
     
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  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Oh god this debate again. If the “other” gets changed to anyone but Leia I think it will be the worst mistake in the franchise
     
  24. DarthFixxxer

    DarthFixxxer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    That argument doesn't stand very much. I hate Disney and I wish Lucas had never sold SW to them. That is irrelevant with the conversation, as I agree with @Bor Mullet 's every single word on the matter of why Grogu was not transported to the dangerous facility instead of the town.

    Btw don't worry Bor. They are never retconning "There is another" with someone else other than Leia, even if Yoda knew about Grogu and that Grogu is alive. Filoni respects Star Wars and George Lucas way too much to change that.
    "Should" is a strong word. I personally see no reason at all why they wouldn't keep Grogu in town briefly before they move him. The secret lab is not a short drive. The lava river has a tide. Maybe the secret lab was not for everyone to see. Maybe the medical facility was in town and had more resources suitable for treating Grogu, and the cloning facility was in the secret lab and was specialized in that. There are a million reasons why what you claim is not a necessity, but merely an alternative.

    The Mandalorian is a great classic show and it would not be over the top to say that it currently is receiving an approval that might be even higher than 90% among Star Wars fans, to a certain degree. Most people I know love it, almost everyone likes it, and very very few dislike it or hate it.

    No writer is taking the quick and easy path. If you have been following the creative process and the interviews and documentaries about The Mandalorian, you will see that all the creators, writers, directors and special effects people have thrown their heart and soul into it. I would argue that it's one of the most memorable things in Star Wars, and the best live action content we have gotten since Revenge of The Sith. Easily.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  25. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I agree completely, but with all the other known Jedi running around the galaxy, it does water down the importance of both Luke and Leia. This is part of why I didn't like the idea of having three Jedi working for the Rebellion in Rebels. From the Rebellion's, and subsequently the viewer's, perspective, it makes it look like force users/Jedi are rather commonplace. This is then contradicted by the movies where we see Mothma saying to Organa about his Jedi friend under the pretense that Obi-Wan is only Jedi left, even though we see her interacting with knowing of the Jedi in the Rebels crew.
     
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