The Mandalorian The Mandalorian 2.08 - Chapter 16 (Season Finale!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

The admins don't like to work on Sundays. IT is on it

 

YES! I knew it reminded me of something but I couldn’t quite place my finger on it. Thank you, and if that is what they were intentionally going for that’s a pretty cool detail.

 

What I'm saying is that a fan of the PT characters who watched the PT first could very well view Luke as "stealing" their legacy in the same way you seem to view Rey as having stolen his; agian, it all depends on how you look at things - peaple who watched the ST first, for instance, would'nt see it that way, becuase their experience with Luke would have always been that he was leading to where he ended up and they did'nt have any preconivied notions for the character.

Yeah, except for saving the Resistence and ensuring in the process that, not only can the third movie happen, but that the galaxy can be saved for the First Order, as well as inspiring the galaxy with his example so that peaple are willing to answer Landos call when he comes knocking later.

Except, you know...Rey and Leia (and possibly anyone else who survived the destruction of his order that he did'nt know about).

Training is training. It does'nt need to be extensive nor does it need to be pysical; Luke did train Rey and he provided her with the means (Leia and the texts) to train more. Again, if Luke is'nt Rey's master, then Obi-Wan is'nt Lukes.

It's not a retcon of TLJ, as TLJ itself shows Leia using the Force and never says she was'nt trained; Johnson can say Kylo Ren poops rainbows, but unless it's on screen it's not canon, so showing him pooping coffee later would'nt be a retcon.

I mean, I'm not doing mental gymnastics, but thank's for assuming that just becuase someone does'nt dislike something you dislike their bending over backwards to rationalize it.

I don't even need to use Leia. Luke gave Rey lessons in TLJ, ergo he trained her, even if the training does not match the totally arbitrary standards for content and length that you are insisting.

I'm sorry it does'nt resonate with you, but Star Wars does not revolve around Luke Skywalker (well, it did in the 80s, I suppose)

I was speaking from an in-universe standpoint, not a marketing one.

Personally "died in the temple" is the least likely of the fates I can imagine for him, but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility.

You mean the ST were Rey needed, and specifically wanted, training and guidence from Luke and Leia?

It was never about that, though. But your right, it is'nt that hard to make the vast majority of fans happy; what it is even easier to do, however, as proved by both the ST and the PT before it, is piss off a very vocal minority to the point were they become determaimed to ruin everyone elses fun.

Why would showing his previous students moving through the galaxy retcon the ST - the ST flat-out said he restarted the Order and had students, and we already know from TROKR that his Jedi went out and did stuff.

We already know he trained more students then Kylo and the dozen he took along with him that he mentioned in TLJ (Leia and Rey), and that line never preculuded the fact that their could be others offscreen (or even that their could be survivors). Luke never said "I trained Ben and a twelve others, who are all 100 percent dead, and nobody else."

The first wo qoutes are from Mauls POV - Sidious himself thought otherwise, considering him an animal capable of a "limited" set of tasks.

The VG qoute is referring to Maul fighting a Nightsister, to whom of course he's going to have superior knowledge.

The last qoute is spoken by (a clone) of Maul, and so is just his opinion (and might be non-canon to Legends, as it comes from Tales and many of their stories are)

Based on the sources we've both posted, it seems more accurate to say
-Maul thinks he's a fully-fledged Sith Lord trained to be the sucessor of Sidious, and thinks he's better the Vader (to be fair, the clone does give him a good run and nearly beats him, so I'd say their pretty close)
- Sidious does'nt think quite so highly of Maul, and views him as a tool to be used until he's no longer useful.

Yes. I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying I perfered Legends take on the character - as I said a while ago, I felt it made him a better contrast to Dooku and Vader.

Well, I'm going to believe Palpatine's opinion of Maul over Maul's assumption regarding Palpatine's opinion of him, obviusly.

"Warriors are animals. Agents like Darth Maul have their uses, but can never expand beyond their limited set of tasks."
- that's from Book of the Sith, and if it was'nt clear when I posted it earlier, it's Palpatine whose saying (writing) it.

But at the time Legends started writing stories about Maul there were no other sources except for TPM, though.

I would answer this for you, but I don't even remember what started this conversation.

Maybe we should just move on?

 

To be fair, most visions I have read in these forums are probably more valid than Johnson's vision about Luke Skywalker.

It is, and it isn't. If I had a dollar for every time I read a variation of the phrase "Luke showing up and bringing down Star Destroyers or killing 100 troopers or destroying 1000 droids would be idiotic" from Sequel fans who somehow have started using these arguments only after TLJ came out, I wouldn't have to pay rent next month. I find this part of the conversation pretty pointless, as I don't really form my opinions about anything Star Wars by what people say, but I do find rather interesting what lengths people go to when they want to support a side, whether it's defending or criticizing TLJ (or any other movie). Especially the "this guy did everything right and you have to like everything that you saw, if you don't like it it's your fault" is a very interesting angle.

Din Djarin is a Mandalorian. I think that finding his place in the galaxy has a lot to do with liberating Mandalore, something he thought was impossible. Now that he knows Mandalore is out there, it's probably not cursed, and needs liberating, why would he not focus on that? What else does he have in life now that he doesn't need to protect Grogu anymore? I guess he could go back to Sorgan and start a family, but he can also do that after liberating Mandalore. I am super excited for Seasons 3 and 4 to be honest, I think the storytelling has been amazing and has led to this exact point for a reason.

It started from a discussion about dibs on the Darksaber. It's not entirely irrelevant, but I am not sure I understand why people felt the need to compose dozens of paragraphs about every single aspect of his character and what kind of a Sith he is.

No one is determined to ruin anyone else's fun, unless expressing a different opinion about a movie you like ruins your fun, in which case I would highly recommend to destroy all devices that provide access to the internet. As for the argument itself, the discussion was about motives and incentives. The motives and incentives behind the ST and the PT were vastly different. Another topic that I don't really wish to discuss here (100% off topic), just pointing out a false equivalence.

 

Johnson is a fan and the peaple on this forum are fans, so both of their visions for Luke are equally as valid - not more, not less, equal. To state otherwise is to express a sense of entilted ownership over the character.

Blueandwhite did'nt say anything about Star Destroyers or troopers or droids, though*; what he said was that peaple who enjoyed the ST are against Luke accomplishing anything. If anything in my experience it seems that the peaple who hated the ST (or rather Luke's portrayal in it) are the ones who insist he did'nt accomplish anything - I'll ask again, why would peaple who liked his dipiction in TLJ not want him to accomplish anything in the years between?

*peaple started using that argument becuase certain peaple who disliked Luke's dipiction in the ST disliked it one the grounds that he was'nt sufficently badass and was'nt the "true" Luke (with the true Luke, in their eyes, being the power-creep infecteted, can-do-no-wrong EU Luke).

Nobody said that.

"Fault" is the wrong word anyway. It's not your fualt if you don't like something, that's silly - just as silly as, say, thinking that becuase someone made/did something you did'nt like that's their fault and they did something "wrong" (for clarification, "you" in this sense is a generalization, I don't mean you specifically).

Rain Johnson made a movie. Some peaple did'nt personally like it. That's not their fault, but it's also not his fualt, it just means they...*gasp*...did'nt enjoy a film!

Yeah...

...you know, I'd ask if your new around here, but I know your not.

I never said anything about incentives so I'm not sure where you got that; all I was saying is that both the ST and the PT proved how prickely and easily upset certain segements of the fandom are and how easy it's easier to upset them then make them happy (look at, for instance, TROS, a movie that was tailor made to make those specific happy but only served to enrage them more)

 

The word valid is subjective anyway. For some it might mean stamped by the government, for others it might mean approved by George Lucas, for others it might mean that it has the Star Wars logo on it. For me, it means understanding Luke Skywalker as a character, so for my own personal judgement RJ's depiction has the least validity among people. And I am not claiming any title or ownership. Like everyone else, I am expressing my own personal opinion. You should probably start accepting that there are different opinions around here.

Your last sentence not only invalidates your entire post, by implying that some version of Luke should not be accepted, but it also shows that you have never read EU novels. If you had, you would see that Luke in the EU is pretty much what we say in The Mandalorian, plus a natural continuation of where we left him in ROTJ. And he is most definitely not power-creep infected, he definitely made a lot of wrongs and mistakes in the EU as well, and his depiction had nothing to do with being badass or not. Just be.... Luke.

No no, you think nobody said that, but people did. Disney's entire agenda and damage control since 2017 has been focusing on telling the fans that it's our fault if we didn't like TLJ. And it's a rhetoric that many fans have adopted. Maybe no one said it in this conversation happening right here, but people say it and insinuate it all the time.

I don't like being a grammar nazi, but man you gotta do something with those "your" and "you're" eventually. One can only read so many of them wrong
I have been around for 2 years. At no point did I see anyone trying on purpose to ruin someone else's fun. If that has happened, feel free to point it out.
Again, people are allowed to have completely different opinions, as passionate and edgy those are. No one is after your fun.

TROS was not tailor made to make people happy, it was tailor made to make profit and not be a flop.
And if they hadn't brought Palpatine back, it would have most certainly been a flop.
Rey Palpatine is not exactly what constitutes "what most people want to see", neither do the 4000 mini death stars.
Why are you talking about the ST and the PT? I don't get it.

PS1. Your signature offends me. Pineapple on pizza is a delicacy and TLJ is the worst SW film ever made in my opinion, so that analogy doesn't work

PS2. The last part of your signature straight up tells people that you think whoever doesn't like TLJ didn't get it and is biased. It's ironic that you make a post trying to tell me that no fans do such a thing.

 

Johnson understood Luke just fine. Just becuase he understood him in a different way does'nt make his understanding any less valid, and you don't get to decide whose opinion regarding a fictional character is less (or more) valid then you.

Hey man, your the one who seems to have an issue with Johnson having a different opinion on where Luke's character should go then you do

That's...not what I said.

I was generalizing a bit, of course, but IMO EU Luke was essentially a static character, and he definantly did suffer from a power creep, as he had to get steadily more and more powerful in order to deal with enemies he faced.

Mind you, I like EU Luke. All I was saying is that the critism you were bemoaning only exists becuase some fans dismiss canon Luke in TLJ becuase he was'nt protrayed in that way.

Which is what he did in TLJ.

You (and other fans) seem to think their is a set way Luke can and MUST act, and any deviation from that course, or any alternative visions for the character, is wrong or somehow invalid.

Disney and Lucasfilms called out the toxic haters who harassed Johnson and the actors, review bombed the film, started a petition to get it remade and generally acted like entitled sourpusses who just wanted to ruin everyone elses fun.

Boo freaking hoo. Those peaple deserved every single bit of what they got and MORE, and I could really care less that they could dish it out and not take it.

If it's not happening in this conversation right here, then why are you bringing it up?

I do, all the freaking time. It's part of the reason I spent the last month on the Star Trek threads, becuase anything even remotely sequal related and peaple just take it as an excuse to turn whatever the conversation is into just them constantly hating on the ST and shouting down anyone who disagrees.

Okay, so then by that logic there's nothing wrong with how Johnson dipicted Luke, right?

A sizable chunk of the film was devoted to retconning TLJ and backtracking on things it established that peaple threw fits over.

Peaple complained very loudly about Rey being "overpowered," and TROS tried to pander to them by making her Palpatine's grandaughter and saying "she had his power."

In response to this statement by @mtt02263

And I think the response to that scene has shown that it really isn't hard to make a vast majority of the fans happy.

I simply pointed out that that was true, but that the ST and PT had/have proved it's also much easier to anger a particuler vocal minority of fans (the ones who think anything that goes agianst their personal vision for Star Wars is wrong/bad/harmful/evil/non-canon whatever else and seems to, for a reason I honestly don't understand, want/need to devote considerable time, energy and resources to shouting verbatim to everyone in earshot about how they feel and reminding everyone about how much they hate X-thing for X-reason and so on and so forth)

Nobody hates Star Wars like Star Wars fans, after all. It's as true now as it was in 1999.

Pinapple pizza is either something you love or something you hate, which seems to be the case with TLJ (at least when it comes to SW fans).

You must have missed the parts of the sig were I said "personal take", "a lot of peaple" and "I think" - it's me musing on observations made during my discourse with some of the peaple on the other side of the issue and theorizing as to the subconscious reasons why they feel that way, while also providing food-for-thought for my fellow posters, not me saying "if your anyone who did'nt like TLJ your 100 percent baised and that's a fact."

It's an observation, not a statement.

 

To me, it totally does actually. I have zero respect for his interpretation. I am allowed to.

That is exactly what I am doing. I have had an amazing time watching the Mandalorian season finale 5 times so far, and an even better time discussing Luke and analyzing him with friends. Johnson can do what he wants. Look at how many posts we are having in this thread from people that are trying to convince us that we should accept TLJ Luke because he's the same Luke. In the Mandalorian thread.

Yeah, it kinda is though.
Unless you think that power-creep infested is a compliment.

For me EU Luke set 30-40 years after ROTJ has the perfect portrayal. His character as shown in the NJO, LOTF and FOTJ novel series is absolutely fantastic and I have exactly zero things that I would change about that. Your sentence about Luke being a power creep makes me cringe. I have never heard a worse interpretation about Luke in those novel series.

That is not what happening at all, and while I can't speak for others I can accept a multitude of Luke Skywalkers set post ROTJ. None of which would ever abandon their friends and family and diss the Jedi. None.

Nice language there. It's funny how your fun can be ruined by a few thousands of people that did those things you mention worldwide.
But that sounds like a personal problem, I love the prequels and everything about them and my fun has never been ruined because of any haters.

Because I can.

That's not happening though. If you think this is happening, then you can always report posts. And there are a bunch of moderators that heavily moderate this forum and take care of the conversations. I don't always agree with that, but I can assure you that if anyone gets out of line, they won't be having a good time.

There's nothing wrong with Johnson having the right to depict Luke the way he wants.
And there's nothing wrong with me saying that I find his depiction completely off target and a failed one.

Still not what the fans wanted. TROS was a film made as damage control, not a film made to satisfy fans. The proof is that fans were not satisfied.

Don't know what you're on about, but people dislike the PT and the ST for completely different reasons.

That's kinda toxic and a generalization. I think Star Wars fans are the best fans, and a small percentage that can't hold it together doesn't affect me.

The difference is that there is fresh pineapple pizza that came straight out of the oven that I love, and there is pineapple pizza that has been sitting in the front window of a shady dirty pizza corner with bad quality ingredients. Some people hate all kinds. I love the first kind but would never even try to eat the latter.

Yeah.... sure.

I love new approaches to music, to film, to art in general. I am always up for novelty and pioneering.
And yet, I found none of that in TLJ. I dislike it simply because I think it's a really bad bad film.

 

Sure, your allowed to. But you don't get to decide what is and is'nt a valid interpration of the character for anyone other then yourself. You don't own Luke Skywalker, and you don't get to dictate what the "right" way to write him is.

Um, zero?

Nobody's saying you have to accept TLJ Luke, just that you need to respect and understand that other fans have views that are just as valid as yours. And I'm just saying he's the same Luke becuase...you know...the Mandalorian and TLJ are both dipicting the same character and are set in the exact same universe, so he is.

It's neither a compliment nor an insult, just an observation.

And for other fans TLJ is the perfect portrayal, while for others neither is and they would have perferred something totally different.

I can't think of a better word for "occasionally becomes suddenly more powerful becuase he now has to deal with more powerful enemies."

He goes from being more or less where he is in the Mandalorian in TTT to being able to astral project and deflect blaster bolts from freaking AT-ATs in Dark Empire, which takes place less then a year later. Again, I don't have an issue with that, becuase I like EU Luke and Dark Empire is one of my favorite stories, but "power creep" really is the best word I can think of.

That is what's happing; if your saying "I can accept a multitude of Luke Skywalkers except TLJ Luke Skywalker" you are indeed saying that their is a set way that Luke can and MUST act, and any deviation from that course, or any alternative visions for the character, is wrong or somehow invalid.

Why do you get to decide how Luke should be dipicted? Why do you have that authority? Why do you know the character better then the rest of us?

Yeah well, it was too polite for those peaple.

It can't. I said those peaple are determinded to ruin everyone elses fun, not that they've been succesful. At best I'm annoyed.

Sure, but how's it relevent to the conversation?

It's not happening right now, but it happens.

And I'm not a narc. There posts are right out their for everyone to see, so if the mods feel the need to step in, they can. Otherwise I'm not going to stir the pot and try and get peaple in trouble.

Fair enough, but it would be equally as valid for someone to say that they find your depiction completely off target and failed too then, right?

Your kinda proving my point; that group of fans is so easily upset that even a film specifically made to appease them still managed to piss them off.

The point is that both trilogies are/were target by the same particulerly vocal and abusive segment of the fandom in much the same (identical really) ways.

Of course it's a generalization.

The analogy is'nt that TLJ is two different kinds of pinapple pizza, it's that is one kind of pinapple pizza (the fresh kind you love) and that some peaple REALLY LOVE pinapple pizza (like you) and others (like me) REALLY HATE it. It's very rare (to the point were I've never personally met or heard of this being the case) for someone to just think pinapple pizza is okay and not have strong feelings about it either way.

Which seems to be, when it comes to SW fans, largely the case with TLJ; you either really like it or you really dislike it.

Sure...what?

It's just an observation (bordering on a theory). Nowhere in the sig do I make the claim that I think what I'm saying is fact or even that I think it's correct.

And other peaple it's a really, really good film.

I'm sure there are movies you think are really good that I think a really bad. That does'nt mean their actually "bad", it just means I did'nt like them.

 

Ok dude. If you can't see the irony of posts like the above, I can't help you.
Three pages in support and appraisal of TLJ in a topic which is about the Season Finale of the Mandalorian.
I just can't even. There are topics appropriate for this. We are ruining this topic, and I hate to do so.
So... sure. Your right

 

Look man, if you want to move this to a different thread, go ahead. Or don't. I don't really care.

All I'm saying is that we're all fans (you, me, Johnson and everyone else) and all our views and ideas should be respected equally and regarded as equally valid, becuase we all love the francise and it's characters and none of us can claim superior "ownership" over them. I'm not trying to support or praise TLJ, just point out the equal validity of it's narrative choices realtive to anything else (be it the EU or something hypothecial concocted by fans).

You can dislike Johnson's choice for Luke and even not enjoy it, but as a fan what makes his interpration of the character any less (or more) valid then yours (or mine)? None of us have the authority to dictate was the "right" way to do SW and is characters are.

The point I'm trying to make is that both of us (and Johnson, and anyone else with anouther different idea) are right.

 

Yes, Grogu is very cute, but I don't really see how he's relevent to what I said.

Look man, all I can say is that at the end of the day you don't own Luke Skywalker and you don't get to decided how others fans get to view him or whether or not their vision/ideas for him are any less valid then your own; there's a word for that, and it's called gatekeeping.

 

Congrats on managing to (1) twist the truth (2) unsuccessfully try to bait me for an emotional response (3) accuse me of things that I never said, all within the same post.

I have reported your post cause I don't have time for this, and I will expect from you to never do these things in the future. Do not subvert my expectations please.

PS. Can a moderator or admin switch my title to "Unsolicited Gatekeeper" please?
.

 

I never twisted the truth (heck, what "truth" are you even talking about?) And I was'nt trying to bait you, all I was doing was point out the same exact thing I've been pointing out for the last page or so regarding all fan's ideas being equally as valid. Also, I never said you said anything, but since you brought it up you did, in fact, say Johnson's view was less valid then other fans (and that is the definition of gatekeeping, becuase your dictating what is and is'nt a valid view for a fan to hold).

Seriusly dude, what is your issue?

Your the one trying to start fights and get peaple in trouble when you could just have moved on as I was attempting to do. All I did was point out that all fans ideas are equally as valid and to say/act otherwise is gatekeeping, and you flipped out and are now trying to get me in trouble for no reason.

Let's just move on (which is what I was trying to do before you flipped out here), becuase I don't need to deal with this kind of crud and I'm really biting my tongue trying to be the better man and not counter-report you for trying to get me in trouble for...well, again, no reason. Besides, as you said before, this is'nt the thread for this conversation.

 

This is why I hope for a Luke Skywalker series that would heal the divisive nature of his appearance in Last Jedi. For those fans (like me) who were disappointed with what he did (or didn't) do in that movie, a series showing Luke's further adventures after Return of the Jedi might ease that disappointment. And at the same time, a really well written story arc for later episodes which gave insight and reasoning as to Luke's self-imposed exile might go a long way to bridging the different characterisations and forming one complete, legendary character.

 

While I like TLJ and I don't think the divisiveness is all as big as it's made out ot be, I agree with this.

I've said it before; plenty of peaple came to like - or even love - Anakin's portrayal in the PT becuase of how he was dipicted in Clone Wars; it's entirely possible that future works fetuaring post-ROTJ, pre-ST Luke could do the same for fans who disliked his protrayal in TLJ.

If anything, I'd say the biggest fualt (perhaps even the only fault from my personal perspective) with Luke's dipiction in TLJ is that we're not privy to the buildup in the years between, so it can seem jarring and off-putting to some fans (especially those who were expecting something else)

 

That is exactly what it is I believe. Fans waited three decades to see Luke Skywalker again, but the passage of time was also reflected in the character. This was a difficult disparity to take, because Luke in Return of the Jedi is preserved forever, and many fans will have gone into Last Jedi having only just watched Luke in Return of the Jedi. Therefore the different characterisation will have been severely felt. There is no context to why Luke is there in his forced exile to explain it. Fans say "Luke would never abandon his friends" but because there is no event or incident to measure his decision against, it feels wrong. A calamity of such weight as to make Luke's decision the right one would help I think.

 

Exactly.

And I don't think twenty-so-odd years of expanded universe content featuring the character helped it any; had TLJ been released a year or two after ROTJ I don't think nearly as many peaple would have been upset, but with so many years to built up assumptions and expectations it was really fighting an uphill battle (and I think even a more moderate, less extreme take on Luke would have still been subjected to outrage/critism, though perhaps not so much, as evidence by how some peaple reacted to Han's dipiction in TFA).

And I can sympathize to a degree, despite how much I personally enjoy the character, as I had a similer experience (though in reverse) when I was first introduced to PT Anakin and saw how much he clashed with my expectations and personal assumptions regarding what kind of character he had to have been before he became Vader.

 

Actually the last quote is not from Maul, its from prophets of the dark side that created clone of Maul.

Also Lockdown novel (second quote) directly says it was Sidious talked about him being eventual successor, it wasn't Maul's opinion.

And the third legends quote clearly says he was a Sith Lord, it wasn't an opinion.

 

I would agree that much needed context simply wasn’t there in the ST, especially for Luke.

What the Mandalorian demonstrates is that it’s the little moments that make the stories great. Seeing Mando and the child interact was quite touching at times, and no big effects were required. It’s been satisfying to watch both characters grow and learn I hope that the other writers for Lucasfilm are taking notes on the Mandalorian when crafting the new films and shows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Let's move on from the ST conversation. It's one thing to talk about Luke, but we have an ST part of the forum if you want to discuss that particular part of his history.

 

Their not really reliable narrators either, I'd say.

That being said, assuming that specific issue of tales is canon, then their probobly not that far off as I said; becuase if I recall correctly the clone does give Vader a run for his money.

Palpatine himself says Maul had only limited uses (and this is his frank private thoughts being put to paper we're talking about), so either he was lying to Maul (fairly likely, given who we're talking about) or he only considered him a successor in the worst case senario (I.E if he could'nt find someone better).

I'm not disputing that he was Sith Lord, just that he was'nt groomed to be one in the same way as, say, Vader; a means to an end, rather then the end, if you get my drift.

But this is'nt really that place for this, there's probobly a Maul thread somewhere that this discussion would be better suited for, but honestly I don't really care either way.

 

Thank you! I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read this thread.