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The Mandalorian The Mandalorian 2.08 - Chapter 16 (Season Finale!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Todd the Jedi , Dec 17, 2020.

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Grade the episode

Poll closed Jan 1, 2021.
  1. 10

    65.2%
  2. 9

    18.9%
  3. 8

    9.0%
  4. 7

    2.6%
  5. 6

    2.1%
  6. 5

    0.9%
  7. 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 3

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 2

    1.3%
  10. 1

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    True, but that's his starting point, and for whatever reason -- perhaps the simple fact that they saved him as a child -- he did develop the moral compass that he's now fine-tuning whilst amongst them.

    There are arguably equally sketchy things about Bo-Katan's faction, and even the overall Mandalorian ethos, but there are things he takes from each of them rather than reject Mandalorian-ness overall, just as many of us work within the various frameworks we can't help having been born into, but adapt them to the way we end up understanding the world. A lot of times we keep to the teachings of our religions while being basically appalled by how others practice them... that kind of thing.
     
  2. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Right. And after all, Luke started as an Everyman. He wasn’t a Super Jedi already when we meet him on Tatooine in A New Hope. If one is only interested in the big-time heroes of the galaxy, wouldn’t A New Hope be written off as insufficiently heroic?
     
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Exactly.

    Both the Watch and Nite Owls embrace bravery, and some level of self-sacrifice. Both are also a bit exclusionary - the Watch being religiously strict, the Nite Owls being secularly nationalistic. However, both are also able to use those principles to integrate and unite Mandos as well - The Watch is very pro-foundling and needs no tie to the homeworld, while the Nite Owls (and their predecessors in the Death Watch) want to unite everyone from the homeworld. And both have a code of conduct, as does even Boba Fett, who is the most distantly affiliated “Mandalorian” and only through his father, so he might be considered representative of any secular Mandalorian Mercs that the setting may or may not have.

    So, while Din’s more outright altruistic and compassionate nature may not be a core element of either the Watch or Nite Owls, it’s not entirely alien to them either. What the Watch and Nite Owls together could teach Din is how wide ranging the Mandalorian people are, and why they can be united, even for those who aren’t homeworlders like himself, and even for those who aren’t adherents of the Watch.

    That leaves the New Mandalorians to perhaps teach him that peaceful civilians should be included in that group as well...
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  4. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 1999
    I am willing to admit I cried as well:_|
    But overall the ending was great as well as the series.

    Darth Sin:vader:
     
  5. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Luke did'nt really start out as an everyman; he started out as whatever the term is for an ambitious young monomyth hero who has'nt yet begun their hero's journey is called.

    The point of everymen is that the don't evolve into huge, awesome superpowered heroes, but are rather humble, ordinary (at least for the setting they exist in) guys who exist in a world of big, superpowered figures; characters like Miles O'Brien, Samwise Gamgee, Samwell Tarly and Jack Ryan don't just turn into Captain Kirk, Aragorn, Arya Stark and Sam Fisher - to do so would be to defy the actual point of being an everyman.

    I mean, I get you don't like Finn's storyline, but he went from nobody janitor to a general who co-led the Resistance and was directly responsable for the sucess of one of the most critical parts of that group's final victory and is, in all likelyhood, going to end up becoming a Jedi. So I don't see how you could say he did'nt end up becoming a "big damn deal epic hero."

    Honestly short of killing Kylo or Palpatine himself I actually don't see how he could have become MORE of a big deal then he already ended up being.

    I don't think it's accurate to compare the Nite Owls and the Children of the Watch; the Children are a subsect/outright splinter group of Mandalorian societies and the Nite Owls are just a military unit; the ideals that the Owls repersent/hold are just the ideals of regular Mandalorians.

    I don't think the New Mandalorians exist anymore; support for the group seemed to have evaporated during Maul and Vizsla's coup and it seems the leadership abandoned the ideology during the revolt/after Satine's death (and if Almec is any indication they might not have ever really that into Satine's ideas to begin with). The only reference to them since is, I think, the Protectors having been Satine's guards, but as we see in Rebels those guys are clearly all into the warrior code and definantly are'nt pacifists.

    Not to mention the planet being invaded by pirates, the Republic and at least three times by the Empire has probobly made even the most stubborn people go "yeah, maybe being a pacifist is'nt such a good idea anymore."
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
    Gallandro007 likes this.
  6. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    But things have been brought forward from New Mando way... Bo-Katan dedicates a lot of what she does to her sister, rejects a lot of the Death Watch ethos, and... well, it's not like Mandalore ever got its stuff together, or had a particularly good time of things, after Satine's regime fell. The best things that happened to them (Rau would attest) tended to be when they banded together, both as clans and with the Rebellion and even their old foes the Jedi.

    Come to think of it, even a hardliner like The Armorer who knows the Jedi as "ancient enemies" isn't that set against them, or she wouldn't task Din with taking his foundling to them.
     
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  7. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Have they? Aside from Rau (who himself clearly does'nt reject the warrior code of the Mandalorians) and Almec (who clearly never really cared about Satine's ideals) it seems the Mandalorian leaders after Satine's death all either arose from the Death Watch and similer fundementalist groups (Bo-Katan, Ursa and the Armoror) or Maul's cadre (the Saxon brothers).

    She does, becuase she clearly loved her sister and seems to have reconized her intentions were good. But at the same time she clearly disagrees with the New Mandalorian's ideals, or else she would'nt have joined the Death Watch, become one of it's leaders and been so loyal to it's leader, and is probobly more inclined to build a Mandalore accordance with Vizsla's ideals, not Satine's.

    Does she? I don't think there's any evidence to suggest she does - heck even now we see her echoing a lot of Viszla's guerrilla tactics in her fight against Gideon.

    Remember, canon Death Watch is'nt Legends Death Watch and Pre Viszla is'nt Tarre Viszla; in canon the Pre and his followers align more closely as an analogue to Sparr and (ironicly) a somewhat more ruthless version of the True Mandalorians. At most I can imagine Bo-Katan might be less willing to resort to outright terrorism then Vizsla was, but then again she never seemed to have an issue with that as best I can recall.

    That's kinda my point; from the point of view of the general Mandalorian populance the New Mandalorians were'nt able to protect them from pirates, but the Death Watch did and at least tried to protect them agianst the Republic and the Empire, and it was by embracing their warrior past that they were able to drive the Empire off their world in Rebels.

    Why would they go "yeah, let's become pacfists again" when their planet keeps getting invaded? If anything getting kicked around so much lately is just going to make them want to become STRONGER and more capable of defending themselves.

    "Banding together" is'nt what the New Mandalorians were about (though it was certainly something they aspired to). They were about "discarding the warrior ways and becoming pacifists" - heck, out of all the Mandalorian groups we've seen in canon they were actually the LEAST united, as their regime was hella unstable, seemingly unpopular outside of the walls of Sundari and, despite Satine's best efforts, seemingly pretty corrupt.
     
  8. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    10/10 and 9.8 / 10 on IMDB so the highest rated live action of all Star Wars - it was just brilliant....
     
  9. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    [​IMG]
    “And another one bites the dust.” -Queen
     
  10. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Well, if I came across like I was saying the New Mando ethos was *strongly* in play going forward, I overstated it -- I was just trying to enumerate a few minor ways in which it remains relevant. And in Bo-Katan's case I should have said she *nominally* reject the Death Watch ethos, because you're pretty much correct. I would say that her claim to leadership does owe to Satine still possessing some gravitas as a leader. That alone wouldn't be a broadly unifying factor, nor would her possession of the darksaber... I think it takes both. And I think that points forward to her need in The Mandalorian's era to tick a lot of boxes for a lot of factions to get the job done (again).
     
  11. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    That's a good point; maybe I misunderstood the argument you and @godisawesome were making, as I thought you were advocating more that the Mandalorians should return to the abortive pacafism of the New Mandalorians.

    I'm sure their are clans who are still more sympathic towards the New Mandalorian's legacy then that of the Death Watch and Bo-Katan would (and probobly has in the past) played politics to appease them. The problem is we don't know what, if any, clans backed the New Mandalorians save for Clan Kryze (which is now led by the Death Watch-sympathetic Bo-Katan) and perhaps Clan Rau (but that's only an assumption based on the protectors former affilation with Satine - I'm not even sure it's ever been stated outright that Fenn has a clan of his own).

    Besides, we all know the only Mandalorians whose ideas are worth replicating are Clan Ordo.
    [​IMG]
    :p

    I think I've finally realized why Luke's fight sequence looks off to me (this is something I hav'nt brought up before becuase I could'nt figure out what my problem was, and I don't want you guys to think I'm saying I dislike the scene, becuase I 100 percent don't).

    The fighting is to "crude" and violent for Luke; by the time of ROTJ his lightsaber style is already very clean and fluid (except for when he's angry and beating up on Vader, and based on what we're shown in TLJ and TROKR it should only be getting MORE fluid as time moves on from that point, not less (I get that they wanted to mirror Vader in R1, but they should actually - IMO - be mirroring Obi-Wan in the PT mixed with Luke in ROTJ/the ST, if anything)
     
  12. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Crude and Violent .lol he's fighting droids !! , I see it as powerful and the Luke we know and love.....
     
  13. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    I agree, Luke is trying to minimize his injuries. We have to remember in the Arena in AOTC well trained Jedi Knights died at the hands of Battle Droids and Super Battle Driods. Just because they are driods doesn’t negate the threat, in terms of blasting droids are more lethal because they don’t hestiate or have emotions. Luke is making short work of the Dark Troopers because they are a major threat to even him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Something that bothers me about the fight is that Luke uses the Force to destroy some of the droids. Yoda taught him, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
     
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  15. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    I think thay display of Force prowess was for the fans, to show us he is Bombad Jedi Master, and for Din and those on bridge to realize that Luke can easily get through the door and take The Child.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  16. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    The thing that bothers me about the fight is that there's no IU reason for us not to see his face during the fight, and the two OOU reasons -- goofy suspense to build fan expectations, and the expense of CGI to make him look like -- were transparent on first viewing and hold up even less well after you've seen it once.

    My take on MandoLuke will eternally be the same as my take on R1Vader: not terrible, but nowhere near as cool as a lot of people think.
     
    Jedi Knight Fett likes this.
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    We’ve seen Jedi throw droids and enemies around before, and Yoda himself casually throw Royal Guards backwards and into unconsciousness.

    I think intent is what matters more than how the force is directed. While Force choking another human or sadistic ally ragdolling the, is pretty bluntly darkside, I think freezing someone so they can’t hurt someone else, disabling them to protect others and yourself, and with the non-autonomous battle droids, it’s pretty much 100% kosher, provided you’re not abusing them the way the Death Watch did in that TCW episode.
     
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  18. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    I concur, intent matters; defense was Luke’s intent. He was defending himself, and everyone on the bridge including Grogu/Babyoda.
     
  19. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I'm talking more about his fighting style if anything else (and again, this is'nt something I have a huge issue with), not his actions ("crude" and "violent" is just me trying to vocalize my feels as best I can when I'm not even 100 percent sure what I'm feeling, so they might not bee the best words); comparing it to both ROTJ and TLJ/TROK it looks rather out of place IMO - I think it should look like he's evolving from the latter to the former two, but if anything it looks to me like he's de-evolving back from the former to an ESB level or before, and it resembles Vader to much when I'd expect it should more resemble a mix between what we've seen before from Luke and Obi-Wan.

    Again, I'm talking about his fighting style, not that he dispatched the droids quickly; it's not even that he gets physical at some points, just that he's not as fluid and praticed as one would expect from someone who will eventually become the guy who danced around Kylo Ren and is already at this point canonically a better lightsaber fighter then Vader. He sort of has the "I've trained a little bit I'm still rough around the edges and inexperienced at this" of TROS Rey, when he should be (and is actually stated to be) well beyond that point.

    Maybe it's just becuase he's largely self-taught and his lightsaber fighting ability is built almost soley off Form I (which, in Legends at least, was descibed as "wild and raw" unless used by a master like Kit Fisto, who even in canon was one of the best duelists in the order per the ROTJ novelization) and he just has'nt used his saber enough agianst multipule opponents at once, so still lacks finess when fighting agains them; as I said it's not a huge issue, it's just I watch it and it does'nt quite fit how I'd imagine Luke would be fighting at this point.

    I would expect something like a less evolved version of this
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Where he moves fluidly around the droids and takes them out with quick, effective and dispassionate strikes (with both his saber and the Force) and by deflecting their fire back at them, rather then what happens in the episode were he's battering them down like he's p***ed off and grappling with them; heck Vader had more finess in R1, and Luke's supposed to be BETTER then him at this point.

    See, now that I did'nt have an issue with - Yoda did say that (and Luke does follow his advice in ROTJ and TLJ) but that's more of an ideal then a rule - and it's an ideal Yoda himself was forced to violate on occasion.

    Do we know if Dark Troopers are less autonomous then other battle droids? I mean, sure, they don't talk (actually don't they; I sorta feel like I remember one of them saying something when they grabbed Grogu. Or am I remembering wrong?), but then again neither did the Nazi bruiser from Raiders of the Lost Arc who Indy fought; being a strong, silent enforce does'nt mean you lack sentience.
     
  20. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    dude, none of that is even about this show :p
     
  21. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Correct
     
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  22. DarthFixxxer

    DarthFixxxer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I completely disagree. His fighting style in the last episode of the Mandalorian for Season 2 is the most fluid we have seen Luke fight with a lightsaber. Every single motion and decision serves a purpose. He is reflecting and dodging, spending the minimum amount of energy to destroy the few dozens of droids. And his fighting mirrors Anakin Skywalker, who had one of the most fluid motions with a lightsaber ever, there are many videos out there that show the similarities. Not sure where Luke in the ST/TLJ sticks with this, he literally does not ever use a lightsaber in the entire ST.

    My instant interpretation of Luke in the hallway against the droids and even from before, is that he is one with The Force, to the point where he doesn't need to use his vision. He is completely attuned and has learnt all the lessons that Ben and Yoda taught him, even the ones where he was sparring blind-folded.

    Having said that, we can all have different opinions of course. For me this is one of the best action scenes in all of Star Wars, and every time I watch it it looks even better than before. And I also do love the Vader R1 scene as well to the max. Both of them are top 10 Star Wars moments for me, and that's a pretty exclusive list.
     
  23. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I think the hallway fight may seem a little “clumsy”/overbearing just because the stunt performer was injecting his own body language into the fight while carrying those stunt sabers we have now that are a bit heavier than the old ones.

    I *do* think however, that it’s a smoother and more “serene”-looking body language compared to Christensen’s pre-suit Vader, which might be the better comparison. The way Luke swept his blade behind his back for a blaster block before twisting into a Force push was a lot more graceful than pre-suit Vader’s callous looking version of the same block in ROTS.
     
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  24. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I'm not sure how it's off topic, since it's about the episode, but I moved it to the Hamill/Luke thread (even though I'd rather not go down the rabbit whole of that kind of thread again). Sorry for upseting anyone/getting off topic.
     
  25. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Well, that’s just, like, your opinion man.