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The Mandalorian The Mandalorian Season 2 Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by Jedi Knight Fett , Dec 28, 2019.

  1. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Both Pre Vizsla and Bo Katan knew Maul didn't have Mandalore's interests in mind when Pre reluctantly allied with the false Sith brothers. Bo and Pre knew it was risky allowing Maul to aid their efforts, and Pre paid for it with his life. Pre Vizsla intended to execute Maul and Savage, but Maul challenged him and Pre lost.
    Bo didn't rebel against Maul because he wasn't the rightful ruler and owner of the darksaber, she rebelled because she knew Maul was using Mandalore for his own means and not for the interests of Mandalorian society. She knew Maul was merely using them. And indeed Maul abandoned them when it was inconvenient for him to remain their leader, as Sidious' Grand Plan was enacted.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  2. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I don't disagree with what you're saying here in the notion of being used, but that's part of what I was getting at when I said it's not as simple as I was painting it. I should have been a bit more expressive in my comment.

    That said, I stand by my point. Did she rebel against Maul because he was using Mandalore, or because he was blocking her from being the one to do so? Did Maul using Mandalore become an excuse for her to rebel against him to quench her own thirst for power because with Maul in charge, her path to power was effectively blocked? She has a demonstrated history of using Mandalore to further her own agenda and interests.
     
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  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I’d say the delicious part is that, as with most of reality’s megalomaniacs, her ambitions clearly have defined self-narratives and externalized beliefs that raise the question of whether it’s pure ambition or fanaticism that drives her.

    It’s a small distinction in terms of the chaos it can unleash in the end, but it would bear importantly on two questions:

    - Was she fanatically loyal to Pre Viszla, or more loyal to herself?
    - Where, if at all, does her ambition end?

    There’s a chance Bo’s more of a fanatic, where her subconscious “golden ideal” has some externalized output and bare minimum amount of humility - where, instead of it being her legacy that reigns supreme, it’s an “True Mandalorian Way.” But she could also simply be a megalomaniac - where it’s all her legacy, and there’s no way for her to truly falter from that path.

    The two can and often do overlap, mind you. But a Bo who envisions a world where a Pre Viszla type is the proper Mandalore to aspire to would still have some rules she’d govern herself by, while one who is really at the end strictly about herself won’t have any rules or lines she’ll cross. And I’m not talking morality rules here, as much as self-narrative rules - the kind of thing where someone may choose to forgo a pragmatic victory if they feel it’s “the wrong story,” even to the point of death and defeat.

    A fanatic Bo may not end up dying fighting Din, since he could theoretically somehow find a way into her “golden ideal” of a true Mandalore - even a defeat handed to her could see her humbled before his rule as a “loyal opposition” if it fits a narrative she desires. A megalomaniac Bo pretty much has to die fighting Din, as it’s either rise or die for her.
     
  4. DarthFixxxer

    DarthFixxxer Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    I am not buying that Bo Katan is evil, a villain, an extremist or any of that.
    I still want her to rule Mandalore.
     
  5. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I think she was using Pre Viszla as a vehicle for her own ambitions, but I think her lust for power was a bit tempered until Pre was no longer "in her way"
     
  6. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Bo's an interesting character, bordering on fascinating at this point.

    I do think that some of her "arc", "character development" and "complexity" derive from there being a bit of inconsistency between her portrayals and the writers not being entirely sure where they were going with it from time to time. But the result is that her character as it is now slots nicely into the expanded world of Mandalorian factions and is pretty fully realized, and it will be really interesting to see where she goes from here. I think Katee's really owning the character and that Favreau and Filoni are shaping her with a lot of finesse and purpose, regardless of those willy-nilly origins (she was more or less created to just show that there could be badass female Mandos, something that's easily taken for granted now).

    I also may be the only person who isn't bothered by the wig -- I think she looks great,
     
  7. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    See, the scene that pops into my head in opposition to that is when Pre signals her to taunt Maul, she gets Force-choked for it, and afterwards she smiles at Pre. The implication is that she was willing to risk the potentially fatal wrath of a Force User for the sake of identifying his true potential as an ally. Add in the horror on her face when Maul kills Pre, and I think there’s an implication she would have died for him if need be.

    Now, Pre himself offers an interesting example of the crossover between a fanatic and a megalomaniac -while he’s clearly the latter, the self-narrative constraints of the former are why he ends up accepting Maul’s challenge and seeming to accept his defeat as well. The line between him merely trying to save face in defeat and genuinely believing that he only had the right to rule as long as he was the strongest is unclear, and hinges on how much of his acceptance of the duel was because his men expected it and how much was his real pride.

    With Bo, we can tell she’d ditch the fighting for power rules pretty easily when it involves an outsider, but there is space where that could be simple nationalism, rather than her own desire for power. Being willing to invite the Republic to Mandalore is also ambiguous, as it was cooperative move that she has now seemingly forsaken after the fall of the Empire.

    And Gar Saxon offers a foil that maybe discourages the idea that she’s purely power hungry: when a dude who fought clonetroopers leapfrogs a Republican ally to become the Imperial lapdog, there’s almost certainly some rules of self-narrative at play holding Bo back.

    So is she a greedy Pretender, who’s pursuit of power requires gaining her own stuff through combat now because of how obviously ambitious she is? Or is she someone who’s been broken down from accepting outside help by two previously failed attempts?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  8. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I'm not saying one way or another on her loyalty to Viszla, and your comment makes it hard to make an argument against. But I was meaning that she saw Pre as a means to gain some power for herself, but her true lust for power over Mandalore didn't truly come to fruition until after Pre was killed and no longer in her way. As long as he was alive, it's possible Bo may have remained intensely loyal to him, but with his death, she no longer had anything holding her back in her lust for power. The question now is if Pre had maintained his position as leader of Death Watch and had eventually gained control over Mandalore, would Bo remain intensely loyal to him, or would her burgeoning lust to become the leader of Mandalore lead her to turn on him and challenge Pre for the right to lead?
     
  9. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Bo-Katan comes across a nationalist believer rather than a power hungry individual. She would benefit greatly under Maul's regime if power is what she seeks since like the Sith, you just need to bid for the right time to strike and takeover. She refused that potential, instead declaring open rebellion against Maul for killing Viszla and thus becoming Mandalore's ruler. In Rebels, the same thing happens. She could have benefited greatly as an Imperial puppet ruler rather than a rebellious leader of the Mandalorian Resistance. But she chose the path of rebellion.

    It is clear that Bo-Katan is a true Mandalorian believer, much like Din prior to his character development, and she obsessed to finish what Pre Viszla started. A Mandalore that goes back to the independent warrior ways, not a pacifistic society nor a puppet for the Empire. And it's clear she has become increasingly desperate since Maul's takeover. Note how she accepts the Darksaber from Sabine in Rebels yet refuses to accept it from Din years later. The failure of the Mandalorian resistance has ironically pushes her to be more aggressive, traditionalist and self-centered than ever before, likely because the Darksaber's propaganda demands she earns it rather than be given it. The irony is that it's very traditions that Bo-Katan wants to restore that has been handicapping her ability to restore Mandalore back to its former glory.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  10. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    The mere idea of possibly seeing Mandalorian “Imperial Supercommandos” in live action is enough to sustain me for all of 2021. Those are some of the best costume designs in Star Wars.
    Absolutely, but both things can be true. She’s a hyper-nationalist believer who also believes she’s the most suited to realizing that hyper-nationalist cause. And she desires ultimate power over Mandalore to fulfill that vision. That doesn’t mean she’s not power hungry. It just means her hunger for power is not for its own sake, but for the sake of restoring her vision of the warrior nation of Mandalore.

    My hope is that this is unequivocally portrayed as...not a good thing. Hyper-nationalism is dangerous and never a good thing. I also have a feeling that this thread could also potentially lay the groundwork (if Bo-Katan succeeds) for Mandalore to become a hyper-nationalist and expansionist Empire, thus possibly setting the stage for a Mandalorian Empire Villain for the post-ST world.

    Though personally I prefer Grogu becoming the new Mandalore and ushering in an era of enlightenment for the nation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  11. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Part of the reason I want her ambition focused on some ideal of “Mandalorian-ness” beyond even her own self-interest is because I want them to deconstruct that ideal; have Din confront the fact that a “good Mandalorian” in the traditional sense of the warrior ethos not only has no guarantee of being a good person, but is almost inherently a recipe for a troublemaker unable to exist in peacetime.

    It would be nice to reconstruct some of her sister’s pacifism long after her death, by making it clear that while Satine was ultimately helpless to stop a massive false-flag operation from Maul, it wasn’t a coincidence that her policy of “Maybe don’t fight all the time?” actually resisted the Death Watch for some time. Extreme pacifism may be too idealistic for Star Wars, but so is a society based almost entirely on martial supremacy.

    (Again, this might be a point Best reinforced by some Rebels cameos: Sabine Arwen has a lot of things to say about standing up for the Galaxy instead of Mandalore and for the value of non-violent aspect for Mandalore’s culture, like art, and the Protectors’ more defensive posture as bodyguards might make them more aware of how you don’t have to be aggressive all the time either.)
     
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  12. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    I can imagine there wasn't a clear long-term idea for her, but I like seeing her in different ways. For instance, I love the moment she has with Ahsoka in Shattered, wishing she was good at something outside of war.

    Also ironic is that she's shaping up to be a tragic character, like the person she refused to accept as Mandalore's ruler.

    And LOTR cameos :p
     
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  13. Jaxxon-

    Jaxxon- Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2014
    With season 3 starting filming in April, unfortunately I don't think we are seeing season 3 until July 2022 at the earliest!
     
  14. Cyber Spark

    Cyber Spark Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2020
    I definitely think they're going somewhere with Boba's heritage. Can't just have 2 scenes about it and abandon the topic.
     
  15. Zoe Con

    Zoe Con Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2020
    The just needed 8 months post production for Season 2. So, looking at February/March 2022. Summer would just be too long.
     
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  16. yodasoda2187

    yodasoda2187 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Well, I finally got around to watching the rest of Season 2 (stopped after a couple episodes), so here are my thoughts:

    Likes
    • It feels very Star Wars-y
    • So many references to things from EU
    • Looks great
    • Action scenes are well made (although note critique in dislikes)
    • Baby Yoda is always adorable
    • Seeing Luke
    Dislikes
    • It didn't seem like they had much for Baby Yoda to do all season, other than get captured and rescued. Thought his character was handled better in Season 1.
    • Action scenes don't feel like they have stakes - characters are too much of superheroes with no weaknesses
    • Not much character development for anyone through two seasons
    • Mandalorian always does the right thing - would be more interesting if he occasionally was conflicted about something
    • WAY too many cameos this season - this probably is also a big reason the actual protagonist got no development
    • So much fan service - I mean, that's what Marvel does too and people seem to love it, but it's not my thing
    • Uncanny valley with Luke
     
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  17. Cyber Spark

    Cyber Spark Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2020
    Well, season 2, according to Giancarlo Esposito, was just setting up for what's to come. After season 2 come the spinoffs(Ahsoka, Rangers, Book of Boba) and then season 3, which will be a more serialized and coherent story. They've certainly set up some plot threads with Din and the responsibility of being the heir to Mand'alor. Still surreal that Boba freakin' Fett is getting a TV show.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    “Not much character development for anyone” seems baffling to me. Am I watching the same Din Djarin that these folks are?
     
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  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Sequel Trilogy Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The way I see it is like this:

    - The bulk of Din’s character development was in Season 1, because that’s his big transition period from a faithful if unimaginative and insular member of the Children of the Watch into a more heroic and open-minded “Questing Knight” type of character with a clear charge and familial relationship with Grogu.
    - Season 2 sees less outright change in Din’s personality or goals, so it *is* less dynamic for him from that perspective, but that’s because he has a clear purpose and drive throughout the entire season (literally all the way to the closing shots), and his understanding is expanding and he’s becoming less ignorant of the larger picture.
    - Season 3 thus has a Din who is entirely different from his earliest form at Season 1’s start - he’s more confidently altruistic and heroic towards everyone, much less close-minded about what makes a “real”Mandalorian, comfortable enough in his identity to shed his helmet around others, and actively (though not enthusiastically) involved in the wider conflict of Imperial remnants and Mandalorian politics.

    The question is how much Din may change personally in Season 3 - he’s part of the wider picture more through circumstances than outright desire/ambition/duty, and since he finished his quest with Grogu, likely feels a little lost. Bo-Katan likely has him pledged to her cause for now (as part of their deal for her help against Gideon), but he clearly doesn’t want the darksaber and seems more resigned to the idea of retaking Mandalore than anything else.

    I’m betting some listlessness is going to be a part of his characterization until he starts getting good personal motivation for whatever his long-term goal will be in the new phase of the show.
     
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  20. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    In Season 2 Din clearly starts to question the dogmatic code of the Culvert in which he was brought up in, and in fact defies those beliefs by removing his helmet in front of others several times.
    In Season 1 he was 100% a zealot and never would have done such a thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  21. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    I've seen a lot of this guy's medieval weaponry videos, he knows what he's talking about, and he has some interesting thoughts on the beskar spear.

     
  22. yodasoda2187

    yodasoda2187 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2002
    I suppose there was the helmet thing but I guess that always seemed inevitable to me and kind of silly to begin with. One thing I was confused about was what did the scan of his face do in that episode? Seems like he wouldn't have been identified in the system or did I miss something there?

    ETA: I realize I'm in the minority not loving this show. I'm still watching it but I definitely struggled through Season 2 even with only 8 mostly short episodes. My IRL Star Wars buddies like it even less than I do so that can also be kind of discouraging from watching it. There are things I like about it, which I tried to note so don't think I'm just hating. I was in the room at Celebration when they unveiled the first trailer and I was super excited. Just feel like it's never lived up to what I felt then. But Star Wars is so diverse nothing appeals to all of us, so I'm hoping some of the others shows I like better. Just wish so many weren't tied in to the Mandalorian.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  23. Cyber Spark

    Cyber Spark Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2020
    It's just programmed to scan if anyone is either A: Wanted by the ISB or B: Working for the New Republic.
    It doesn't scan whether or not anyone's actually Imperial.
     
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  24. Jaxxon-

    Jaxxon- Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2014
    I hope so.
     
  25. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    But season 2 has Din learning about the narrowness of “the way,” and violating one of its core tenets by the end through showing his face. That development only happened in season 2, and it was quite significant. Though I did find his season 1 arc to be even more substantive.