Senate The Middle East Discussion Thread

Iranian government has confirmed that it unintentionally shot down the plane.

 

oy vey

 

There was little else for them to do.

 

What's a Gaullist anyway? As far as I can tell, it's about the same as an Einsenhower Republican...which would make you a liberal today.

 

This helps.

 

Pompeo is one of the most annoying liars of all time. We killed a general who was obviously not a threat to us, and it blew up in Trump's face.

 

Everyone in the West should be supporting the secular majority in Iran to domestically throw off the oppression of the theocracy. This is perfectly consistent with not wanting a war with the Iran.

 

The problem is that its so difficult to trust that NATO won't just make a puppet government or destabilize the region for their own hegemony. Not saying we shouldn't support secular movements, but I am hesitant when it comes to regime change. We use human rights as a bludgeon to get what we want and then brutalize those very people. It is not as easy as just supporting domestic coups cause that can so easily open the door for US intervention.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/secular-despots-coming-arab-state-171105142851556.html
Really relevant article for today, theocracy is awful, but we must be wary of secular strongmen or the co-opting of human rights to justify destabilization. Cause when that happens, hardliners get the perfect recruiting tool and extremists dig in.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just.....well worried about all solutions on the table

 

No one is arguing that internal regime change from below isn't fraught with difficulties and dangers. The 1979 Revolution is an example of a peoples movement being hijacked. It's easy for us here in the West to sit back and hesitate in our support when we aren't the ones who are suffering, but for the people on the ground in Iran it would matter that people support their struggle. There is never going to a moment where there is no possibility of it turning south. But we should support the Iranian people here in letting them take a chance for a better future without the theocracy.

 

The question still is raised, which movements? I do support the Iranian labor movement that is being killed RN, but I also don't know if I can just say "let's topple the government and support insurrection when the country is on the verge of invasion". It is not about there being some chance of things going south, the US, UAE, Israel, and the Saudis all want Iran crippled, regime change right now puts everyone in Iran in danger. Internal revolution is good, but who among the movements do you support, who are you aware of the long term goals of, and what will happen between different movements when they seize power? I am in support of revolution any day, but I think we need to remember that much of Iran supports the theocracy, and those that are protesting mostly just want reform not governmental change ASAP. What revolutionary movement you support could be the difference between intervention via proxies, secular despots, actual grassroots revolution reform, or full civil war in which everyone is weakened. It is also easy for us here in the west to look for simple solutions to the plights of the Middle East without addressing the nature of their situation. If they revolt I'll probably support them, but I am not cheering for secular uprisings cause right here and now I am not gonna speak for the will of the Iranian people as a whole.

Like the NIAC is not asking people to support revolution. You can, I probably would, but I don't think it is fair to say all leftists here should universally. Particularly given how many Iranians are afraid of interference and really badly just want to feel safe. Set up a UN human rights monitor there like the NIAC has been trying to, push reform; but that does not necessarily translate to supporting regime change cause again, the population at large wants reform but are not opposing the theocracy. That could change and I hope it does, but we have to deal with the immediate problems they face, they protest economic problems first and foremost.

I found an interesting poll from 2018.https://www.iranpoll.com/publications/after-protests I recommend checking out all of it, but here are the ones that stood out to me



I loath Khamenei and theocracy, but don't mistake my wanting the iranian people internally to decide their fate democratically for taking the easy route. I cannot just condemn those who will die on behalf of the theocracy due to intense nationalism. Right now we need to be strategic and so do they, they are literally under attack and frankly nationalism will grow right now. Peace feelers are most important, preventing intervention, and getting UN human rights involvement on an observer level are the primary goals. I defer to groups like NIAC cause I really don't feel I can make a call beyond supporting labor protests and social reform, any governmental change is up to them and I'd wanna know who exactly I'm giving my support to.

 

With respect I think you're taking what I'm saying and running with it. I'm not saying that we should funnel funds to the protestors or have other countries being to influence the protestors. What I'm saying is people in the West should support the Iranian people in choosing their path forward (whether it helps or not). It's their choice to take the chance. We shouldn't call out Trump's decision to go to war, because of how this would affect the Iranian people, but then not even say we support the Iranian people in choosing their own destiny. It comes across as only paying lip service to supporting the Iranian people when it helps attacking Trump, but not really caring when the Iranian people begin to voice their opposition to their regime.

 

The Murdoch press, particularly its tabloids, are far more in touch with ordinary people than the elite press such as The Guardian. If they were not, their lies wouldn't matter, would they?

 

What does that even mean? They are popular because their false narratives and lies provide comfort to those with established biases. They tell people what they want to hear and that's why they're popular. They are disgusting and immoral operations.

 

The two, are, unfortunately, all too compatible truths.

 

Exactly. Guardian readers are the urban, cosmopolitan(*) elite, not the ordinary people.

(* - meaning multi-cultural, not Jewish)

 

Pretty sure their is a sizeable portion of 'ordinary' people who find the Murdoch press to be utterly abhorrent. You seem to be insinuating that 'ordinary' people are hateful and dumb.

 

Yes but you are not an ordinary person. It's the intellectual multi-cultural elite that read the Guardian, support Antifa and complain about "U.S. imperialism" and etc.

Such people are not the Average Person... and never will be.

 

Either you're deliberately oversimplifying and ignoring a large section of people who read and comment there or you've never actually been there at all. I should know, I've spent a while in those comment sections.

 

What do you know about me?

It seems like you're conflating 'conservative' with 'ordinary person'. Of course this is a lie spun by conservative elites.

 

Someone who isn't university educated, cosmopolitan and overtly political. As I said - just using my own home city - the Murdoch owned Herald Sun far outsells the leftist The Age. Going by that, many progressive activists do not speak for the average person.

 

So you're from Melbourne.

Labor has held state government there since 2014 and currently have a sizeable majority.

Lower House: 55/33 (3 of the cross benchers being the more progressive Greens)
Upper House: 18/22 (much of the cross bench being micro-parties)

In the last election (2018) the two party preferred vote was 57-43 to Labor.

Federally the majority of the seats in Melbourne are progressive.

All of this despite the terrible racially charged propaganda by the Murdoch press in that state.

 

Yes but most people in Victoria still buy the Herald Sun over The Age. That's a better indication of how superficial progressive views are for many. Scratch away the surface and things become very dark.