The Moral Ambiguity of Star Wars

Try not to be offended but you're just splitting. Example: If a man works for a slave owner and one of the duties of this man's job includes supervising slaves who work in extremly dangerous environments for 12 hours a day would you consider this man to be a righteous man?

And that is acceptable that you feel that way about war but I'm not saying that war in general can be avoided or stopped by listening and compromising, and the truth is it's really not me who is saying a fictional Star Wars civil war can be avoided or stopped by listening and compromising. Padme is saying it and I'm simply saying what she says.

And your interpretation is algood. To me these movies are visual stories and much of the meaning is conveyed through images so I wouldn't put a bunch of meaning into dialogue because to me all of the dialogue in Star Wars is direct and to the point so there is no need for the audience to carefully examine all the dialogue because it just is what it is. Example of the visual story: The Kamino scenes where probably designed to show you how cold and empty these Kamino aliens are via their austere environment and because of their cold and empty nature they don't see the cloned children as anything more than a product that they're very proud of. Notice the babies in the jars all look very much like human newborns, this was probably done on purpose to evoke emotion from the audience and as we see Obi-Wan has a not so happy look on his face while seeing this for the first time with the audience. The cloned babies in jars and the cloned children diligently studying battle tactics is supposed to break the audience's heart as it may be breaking Obi-Wan's heart. The audience is then supposed to realize this is an incrediable crime against humanity and become enraged that this is taking place and point the finger at all responsible and associated with such a crime.

Yes, there were vexing decisions to be made by the Jedi in "Attack of the Clones". Yes, they were probably aware that this cloning was wrong. Yes, they had a commitment to the Republic, but in the end the choice was simple: Just leave it all behind because it was all wrong and there was no way a small group of people like the Jedi were ever going to be able to fix it because they can only help the people do the right thing and the Jedi were no longer helping do the right thing because of this whole cloned slaves issue. The people of the galaxy had to want to fix the problems on their own but not with cloned slaves and then the Jedi can lend a helping hand and they do just that in the OT. It is understandable why the Jedi accepted ownership of the clones in "Attack of the Clones" but what was really screwed up is that they had 3 years to think this all over, yet they still kept going down this dark path. This isn't about hindsight is always 20/20 and if the Jedi would have known that Palpatine was whomever they would have done things differently. See for a Jedi it isn't supposed to be about the Sith or the Republic or

 

One can argue that the clones aren't slaves given that they were created solely to fight and have no desires other than to fight and defend the Republic. I don't view the Jedi as being equivalent to the plantation workers who supervise the slaves though as the Jedi's relationship with the Clones seems to be a fairly equal one when it comes to the commanders. Of course, the only Jedi we see interacting with a clone commander is Obi-Wan, so that could just be his relationship with Cody and not the same as other Jedi and commanders.

Padme says it, but Padme is wrong. Negotiations would have failed as the Sith would never agree to lay down their arms.

Oh I agree. However the cold visual and Obi-Wan's reaction supports the idea that the Jedi weren't comfortable fighting alongside clones but compromised because they felt the war needed to be fought and that it's not their place to make the Republic field another army.

 

The problem with backing your interpretation with Lucas quotes is that the guy never came out with a full interpretation of what Star Wars means to him like he did with THX-1138, so he is leaving it up to individual to interpret the movie. The death of the younglings represents all the things that the Jedi were doing wrong before the Sith even resurfaced. By creating Jedi at such a young age the Jedi themselves made these children targets, and those children were victims of the Jedi's narrow minded dogma not the enemies of the Jedi. The Jedi should have never been making baby Jedi to begin with and this is represented by the New Jedi Order in the OT. Like I said the story is not driven by dialogue but by visuals. We see that Luke and Leia didn't need any bogus Old Jedi Order dogma to help them do the right thing. Did they?

 

I wasn't trying to say that Lucas's quote backs up my view. As for the blaming the Jedi for Anakin's decision to slaughter children, that's ludicrous. Your absolving the man who killed them and placing that blame on the Jedi? There also is no new Jedi Order in the OT. There's three old Jedi and one young one, and Luke did need training from the old Jedi to do the right thing as shown in Empire, Luke should have stayed on Dagobah. His decision to face Vader solved nothing and only put him in more danger. Leia, Lando, and Chewie would have escaped without his help and he would have had more training when he faced Vader and his Emperor.

 

Okay, instead of laying all the blame on the Jedi, I'll put 50% on the Jedi and 50% on the Sith. Will you see it as any less ludicrous? However, there is no difference in what the Sith did to the younglings and what the Jedi where part of doing to the cloned children. There is nothing for those cloned children. I must admit, at least the Jedi children probably had some kind of nurturing and warmth from the other Jedi. The cloned children just have computer terminals that teach them battle tactics: that was all the warmth and nurturing they were ever going to get before at the ripe old age of 10 they would be carted off to kill or be killed.

Again this giant movie is all about symbolism and representation. Yoda, Mace, and Ki-Adi-Mundi represent the Old Jedi Order and Luke and Leia represent the New Jedi Order. The Old Jedi Order needed to be destroyed in order for it to live again through the New Jedi Order. This is just the way of things sometimes. Sure it sucks but I believe I've told you this before that that is even the way of the cosmos and we are just a tiny part of all that. The Old Jedi Order just couldn't change on thier own and their destruction forced them to change, then the last of the Old Jedi Order dies and Luke and Leia start it all over but without the Old Jedi Order dogma because it was those old ways that destroyed the Old Jedi Order. Things sometimes have to change in order to survive. It just how it is and sometimes it's not nice.

All Yoda did was teach Luke about hate, anger, and what not, but the rigid code is lost to time and that's what I'm talking about. Yoda just didn't know that Luke had a date with a predetermined destiny on Cloud City. See it was time to start the chosen one's turn back to the light because the people had redeemed themselves and that's why Luke is given a vision to point him in the direction he needed to go.

Another thing is that Luke completed the training on Cloud City when Luke showed he would rather die than become evil. See that's the point I'm making about the Old Jedi Order taking ownership of the clones. They should have been willing to give up everything instead of becoming evil.

Perhaps Leia, Lando, Chewie, and don't forget 3P0 may have escaped but then again it was R2 who helped them escape and R2 needed a ride.

 

Except if Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, it's unlikely he would have ended up trying to convert Vader to the Light. Yoda and Obi-Wan are pretty much content with the plan of killing both Vader and the Emperor, because to them Vader is lost. Yoda wanted Luke to stay and receive deeper training so that he'd be willing to do such a thing for the good of the galaxy.

Luke's strength is the fact that he's not as jaded as the old guys. On the one hand, Yoda and Ben are correct that this is bad because it's very dangerous to risk the fate of the galaxy on Luke's ability to rescue one soul. But it's a risk that ultimately proves worth taking.

 

It's slightly more reasonable, yeah. There are differences between the Younglings and the Clones such as that the Younglings have free will and are able to leave the Order while the Clones can't. You also keep saying that the Jedi were responsible for the Clones when they weren't as an Order. They were ordered for the Republic with the Jedi only serving alongside them because the Jedi also happened to defend the same Republic. The Jedi couldn't just abandon the galaxy to Sith rule and as far as they knew they were fighting to stop Sith rule.

You've told me this, but it's not accurate(in this instance.) Leia in no way represents the New Jedi Order. That's placed solely on Luke. She may have the potential to join that, but she represents the promise of a New Republic that is without corruption which will work alongside the New Jedi Order. We also see that the Jedi did change on their own with the Lucas-line edited RotS novelization having Yoda realize that no lightsaber or Force power would destroy the Sith and with their decision to have Luke and Leia raised by families rather than by the Jedi.

The Code was gone as a formalized message, but much of it was still there. Luke was told to stay calm and at peace, which is what the old "There is no emotion, there is peace." tenant was trying to get across. "There is no ignorance, there is knowledge." is fairly self-explanatory given that Luke's being told about the Jedi and the Sith. "There is no passion, there is serenity." is also a part of Yoda's teaching that Luke must control his fear, anger, and aggression. "There is no death, there is the Force." is there within Yoda's statement that "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

And the Jedi never took ownership of the clones. They fough

 

Do you honestly believe that Lucas makes morality tales that say it's perfectly acceptable to send people off to kill and be killed as long as you first strip them of the ability to think for themselves?

The Jedi are guilty by association. And that's that. "Attack of the Clones" and "The Empire Strikes Backs" are the inverse of one another and the players are just different. I already said Luke was willing to give up everything instead of becoming evil where the Old Jedi Order wasn't willing to give up anything and became evil.

So when Yoda said that Leia will take over if Luke is killed on Cloud City it means nothing? So why did Lucas even bother making her a back up to Luke if she didn't represent the new generation of Jedi?

Yoda didn't start changing until after change was forced upon him. I thought I made that clear in my last post with this statement:

That is something that is not at all in the movie. When the characters of the PT speak about a Jedi code they're talking about something that doesn't allow: adults new recruits, a Jedi to train 2 students, and attachments to others. The code that the PT characters speak of is all about control.

Again, do you honestly believe that Lucas makes morality tales that say it's perfectly acceptable to send people off to kill and be killed as long as you first strip them of the ability to think for themselves?

I find it very interesting how you just easily disregard morals and subplots and even dialogue if they at all interfere with your interpretation and then expect people to appreciate your interpretation.

Star Wars is all about causality, it always was. They escaped because Luke brought R2. Dude,

 

No, I think the lack of free will is one of many reasons why the Clones had it worse off than the Younglings did.

You said the Jedi became evil, but they didn't. The Jedi were fighting to defeat the oppressive Dark Lords of the Sith and when they learned the truth about Palpatine they tried to defeat him too. The Jedi were tricked, not evil.

Yoda's statement that Leia is the others shows she could have been one of the new Jedi, but that doesn't mean she is one in the films. In the films Leia serves more as the hope of the Republic, though she was able to become a Jedi. Of course, I don't know how mutually exclusive the Jedi and Republic would be.

True enough, though Yoda had no reason to change prior to that. He realized that the Sith could return without the Jedi seeing them, that the Jedi were becoming over-confident, and that Qui-Gon was right about Anakin being the Chosen One.

True, it's simply the Lucasfilm supported EU code, so I'll drop that.

Again, no. But, it's not the Jedi's doing. They simply fought alongside them as they would any army the Republic commissioned.

 

Well dang, Vort, that last sentence that you edited was where I redeem myself for the sentence before but you left the demeaning sentence and edited the redeeming sentence.



Okay, Starwalker. We have to end this because it really doesn't matter. The point of my last statement wasn't meant to be offensive. All I was saying is that sometimes with age people start seeing things more clearly. Some people have the clarity when they're young but most don't. I was one of the most and that's all I'm saying. I once thought as you and because of this I was once a bit of a basher who thought "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" weren't near as good as the OT. I thought the PT wasn't good and didn't have much to do with the OT because I was listening to the dialogue and not watching the movie. The truth is I don't know why anyone would think much of the saga unless they watched it over and over while letting go of what the characters are saying and put all of their (audience) focus on what the characters are doing during a full viewing or two.

Years ago I was posting on a starwars.com message board, around the time "Attack of the Clones" came out, and this member, who's screen name I never really knew because I blew him/her off so quickly, told me something that I always found curious and remembered even though I blew him/her off. He/she said, "What if Palpatine doesn't know what he is doing is wrong". And I was like that is so stupid, because Star Wars isn't that deep. The funny thing is I was totally wrong. Lucas does see it this way and Lucas even sees all the characters this way as well. The Jedi don't know that what they're doing is wrong. They're doing the wrong things because they're afraid and Mace even says they're afraid in "Revenge of the Sith".

"Your focus determines your reality."
"Good is a point of view."
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend upon our own point of view."

The above three lines of dialogue which are just saying the same thing was uttered over and over for sake of the audience. Lucas is driving this point all the way home because it is so crucial for the audience to fully appreciate this.

One of the purposes of "Attack of the Clones" is to simply show the audience the deal the Jedi make with the devil by taking ownership of the clones. Now you're just splitting hairs about ownership or whatever and your argument about mandates and Sith pardoning the Jedi from their evil ways is falling on deaf ears here because it goes against the very thing that defines a morality tale. It's just all about doing the right thing and the characters aren't doing the right thing if they're commanding slaves and it's just as simple as that. Like I said Lucas is just playing some kind of billionaire movie mogul game with the fans. The answers are in the visuals just as much as they're in the dialogue and crawls. It's kind of like "Mulholland Dr.".
It's just a silly puzzle that uses symbolism, visual cues, as well as dialogue.
David Lynch was just willing to give his fans clues when the DVD came out and Lucas didn't.

I'll give you the final statement and that will be the end of all this.

 

He/she said, "What if Palpatine doesn't know what he is doing is wrong". And I was like that is so stupid, because Star Wars isn't that deep. The funny thing is I was totally wrong. Lucas does see it this way and Lucas even sees all the characters this way as well. The Jedi don't know that what they're doing is wrong. They're doing the wrong things because they're afraid and Mace even says they're afraid in "Revenge of the Sith".

that is so massively simply put

congratulations or something. just wanted to say this out loud

 

Oddly I agree with you on much of that. However, what I find interesting is that Palpatine goes farther with the moral relativity than Ben does. There's an important difference between "Good is a point of view." and "You'll find many truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Palpatine's statements shows that he believes there's no such thing as an objective reality while Ben simply believes that many things are malleable. "Your focus determines your reality." is of course true, though I never took

I don't think pointing out that the Jedi never took ownership of the clones is simply splitting hair

 

It's more like corruption-by-association. The Jedi aren't corrupt, but they have become aligned with a corrupt political system.

Who knows, maybe that's what he meant.

 

I could see that, but his argument was as I remember that the Jedi were supposed to be diplomats and shouldn't be fighting people, which makes no sense since they're Jedi Knights.

 

If it makes no sense then maybe it can be discarded...

 

That's what I did.

 

I think all we have to go on is this, in a film which also refers to them explicity as Knights:

QUI-GON: I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness, only protect you.

 

I always took that as Qui-Gon pointing out that he's physically incapable of facing an entire army, but Mace's statement that they're "keepers of the peace, not soldiers." does reflect that the Jedi didn't want to fight a war. However, Lucas's statement at least to me seemed to say the Jedi should just be negotiators, which makes no sense.