Saga The Morality of Star Wars

Yes.

 

"They're more guidelines than actual rules" - Qui-Gon Jinn (not really, but he would say that).

 

The prequel era Jedi tending to follow the rules just because those are the rules (instead of truly understanding/contemplating WHY those rules were made) is partly how they ended up losing. The Sith evolved and changed tactics, the Jedi stuck with the same modus operandi and rulebook for hundreds of years. However good the code was or wasn't, after that period of time it's going to end up outdated by default - at least in part.

 

They couldn't adapt because to fight the Sith because neither Darth Maul nor Palpatine were very chatty, whereas Palpatine had fresh insider info as Chancellor and Anakin's friend.
I think the PT Jedi completely understood the rules and their reasons and importance, that's why they followed them (they're obedient, not stupid). The Jedi firmly believed that as long as we remained pure and incorruptible, good will triumph over evil. I guess that would be their moment of 'blind faith'.
Unfortunately, Palpatine knew that.
Even more unfortunately for the Jedi, the only person who did not get that was Anakin (the fool).

 

The Jedi are too focussed on their high-minded ideas of "purity". If you don't follow the rules, they don't treat you with respect, basically as a lower being. This can be seen with Anakin in TCW. He works his ass off for the council and the Republic, but when the council talks about him, it is usually about how dangerous he is and how much he has still to learn. They are ungrateful, because he is not "pure" enough.

There is barely any tolerance for individuality. It is not enough for the council if you work your ass off and try your darndest to fulfill your task, you also have to do it with a smile and with the drone-like serenity that Jedi like Shaak Ti show. Basically, they demand too much. In many ways, the order is like one of these horrible fundamental christian schools.

 

The Jedi are just people so I'm sure from time to time they get things wrong, go off the rails, ignore their own teachings. But I don't think this is deliberate, it's something that happens through failure, mistakes, poor information and personal weakness. In terms of Jedi mistakes, I think what makes them jedi is not that they don't get things wrong, they do from time to time, but that when they do and they find out they try to put things right.

In terms of their philosophy being extreme in many ways I think it has to be. I see all sentients on a continuum between very selfish, immoral behaviour and very selfless, highly moral behaviour. The Sith are down at the immoral end and the Jedi are up at the highly moral end, just due to the principles a being of each order chooses to govern their life. I see average sentients (average morally) as somewhere in the middle. Like this...



So, the Jedi way of life, the Jedi committment to selflessness, the Jedi reverance for life all put the Jedi at the far good end of this scale, the 'exteme' end if you like. Are they a bit extreme? Well anyone who behaved as they do, who chose to live that way would be. That's the point of the Jedi - to be, as much as they are able, the good guys. If they set themselves up to be the 'mostly good guys' then they'd be less extreme I guess.

 

From No Prisoners, the Altisian Jedi seem to favour being a little bit less self-sacrificing than the standard ones:

Geith: "Emotions are our programming, the reactions that keep us alive and help us understand what's right and wrong. If I'm upset when someone treats me as having no worth or rights, isn't that how I work out that I shouldn't treat a clone trooper the same way, or a servant or anyone else? If it offends me, then it probably offends others."
Altis: "A good point, Geith, but beware the assumption that all beings react as you do."
Geith: "Master, I'd lay down my life for you, but I don't accept an argument that says if others are not like us, we can treat them differently. That's an excuse for exploitation. That is the path to the dark side."
Altis: "I wasn't suggesting that. Just that understanding others' motives and being able to see the world as they do is the key both to compassion ... and to success in battle. And while I'm touched by your devotion, I would much rather you lived a long and happy life, influencing others by your example, and raising children to do the same. You too, young woman. Enough of the sacrificial tendencies. A little selfishness keeps you alive to do more good for others, yes?"

 

This makes a lot of sense - to die for the goodness they want to uphold is a big deal. In choosing whether to die or not I guess they would need to compare
the good they would do by dying to an estimate of the good they would have done if they had chosen to live (assuming they're in a situation where they can choose.)

On top of that, being overly self-sacrificing, can put someone in a position where they become sick / ill / disabled and swo require constant help from others. The sacrfice
may have seemed important at teh time but the price is the constant care afterwards. I see ethics as a practical discipline. Being high-minded while actually causing
problems is no good at all. I think the secret is to actually make things better. This is why I suspect that Jedi are sometimes called hypocrytes - becuase they take the
high-minded stuff adn then get down to doing some genuine good with it in the real wolrd (galaxy!) In doing that they have to adapt the high-minded intentions of their order to
real benefits for real people.

 

Yep, Jedi (of the prequel era anyway) seem to be pretty keen on things like principles and the Code and the other high-minded philosophical aspects of being a Jedi. But even the best of them must sometimes bend the rules a little bit or choose one principle over another if they are actually going to make the slightest bit of difference in the galaxy, populated as it is by people who haven't got the Force to back them up and can't afford to live by the same high ethical standards the Jedi claim for themselves. Which is where Anakin probably came up short, sadly - he may have been a bit more liberal about the rules than many other Jedi but for whatever reason he never realised or understood that actually, that was part of what being a Jedi was REALLY about - making the choice of the least of all evils, saving as many as you could if you couldn't save everyone. He was under the impression that Jedi in general (and he in particular, being the Chosen One) totally HAD to save absolutely everyone, every time, because Jedi. He managed to have inferiority and superiority complexes going in tandem, which messed him right up (a lot of which thanks to Palps' meddling.)

 

I don't see Obi-Wan as a figure of "Ultimate Good". I don't see any of the characters like that, to be honest.

I never really saw Anakin as the kind of individual who should have been a Jedi. I'm not saying this as a bad reflection of his character. But I think he should have tried to achieve some kind of self realization in his own way.

 

Yeah that guy is messed up. Anakin's idea that the Jedi have the right to do whatever they want because they're all-powerful also go against everything the Jedi were taught - that great power means great responsibility to serve and make sacrifices.
I feel the Jedi are pretty tolerant of outcasts. If they weren't, Quinlan, Anakin and Qui Gon (even Mace) never would have been allowed to stay at all. There is only the basic rule of not being a maniacal, power-hungry, selfish psychopath, which is what Anakin was. There's a fine line between prizing "individual freedom" and selfishness. Other people are allowed to live however they want. The Jedi cannot, because they're too busy trying to make sure everyone has the freedom and right to be as selfish as possible.

 

I honestly think that if Anakin had been LESS powerful, and/or QG hadn't made the (perfectly logical, in fairness) leap that this slave kid might be the Chosen One and they'd all operated under that assumption ever since, it probably would have worked out better for everyone. Anakin would have ended up as basically Qui-Gonn II, perhaps more powerful than the original model but whilst the Council would view him as unorthodox and unruly they'd recognise he got **** done and leave him be.
Unfortunately, Qui-Gonn dying (and at the hands of a Sith no less) made sure Anakin was pretty much given the job of Chosen One, end of story. That meant everyone (including Anakin himself) expected even higher standards from Anakin than of anyone else, and what would have been a telling off and being sent to backwater planet #2454546 til the fuss dies down if QG did it gets blown up into some major disciplinary action. The rules ended up being applied particularly firmly to Anakin when in fact he was always the kind to resent authority (being a former slave) and proud to boot.
Like I say, he had the superiority complex ('I am The Chosen One' plus he really could kick more butt than most Jedi Masters by the age of 20) and inferiority complex ('Nothing I do is good enough for the Council!/I couldn't save my mother!') going on all at the same time. I don't see him as truly psychopathic because I don't think he was born with any lack of empathy or human emotion, if anything he had too much when he was young. He wasn't even all that selfish to begin with, nor power-hungry (he didn't need to be, he was the most powerful Force user of that generation at the bare minimum) but he ended up that way because of his CHOICES. He ended up believing might makes right, and who was mightier than he? He was going to kick Death itself in the metaphorical groin and save Padme and that justified EVERYTHING, in his mind at least.

 

He was also given a lot of examples that might makes right, hasn't he?

The Jedi used might to pacify the planets of the galaxy and free them from the grasp of the CIS.
And is it really a coincidence that the Jedi council consists of the mightiest of Jedi? That the mightiest of Jedi make the decisions on how all the other Jedi shall live?

 

Fixed it. Council appointment should not be left to coincidence, it's quite important. If power is the only thing that counted Anakin wouldn't have any problems getting on there at all.
Anakin's "might makes right" problems probably stemmed from his experiences as a slave and from Palpatine.

 

I am not for one minute saying that might actually does make right, simply that Anakin is the one who ends up drawing that conclusion. Normal Jedi end up gaining more power (or being able to do more, with less) as they gain age and experience. Generally speaking, an older Force user is going to be better than a young gun through dint of experience (c.f: Dooku's handing of Obi and Anakin their backsides the first time they fight) and the Council is made up of experienced older Jedi (quite logically of course) so the fact they ALSO happen to be amongst the most powerful is a fortuitous coincidence. They didn't get there by being powerful, but as a corollary to their appointment they happen to be powerful in addition to experienced and skilled.
Then we get to Anakin, who was as powerful as most Masters as a mere Padawan but was never a particularly intellectual soul nor given to moralising or philosophical debates internally or with others. He never seemed to learn that much because he was so freaking powerful he never had to. On the odd occasion he does lose he just bounces back with EVEN MORE POWER! until it does work. (He does the exact same thing against Dooku the second time around, and this time it works for example.) As hairymuggle says, he was a slave for most of his childhood which gives him a distinct resentment to authority anyway. Plus with Palpatine in his ear the whole time it's no wonder he ends up on a dark path.

 

I'm not sure you can call it a coincidence when all the powerful Jedi are on the council. Do you think Lucas was unaware of that detail? It just happened to be the case? People who can move starships are given council seats, not people who have trouble with simple telekinesis.

So it's not really a surprise if Anakin draws the wrong conclusions.

The entire system is strange.

For some reason, immature Anakin thought that he deserves a place on the council. Maybe he has made the same observations that I have? Huh.

Who are the most skilled Jedi? The ones who happen to have the most force mojo, aka power. I don't know of a single council member that is actually mediocre in the midichlorian-section.

As for experienced, I grant you that, but being experienced comes coupled with force mojo power in this case.

 

The Jedi who sat on the Council were strong, but they were also wise. They had reached a point where their skill, their temperament and their knowledge of the Force were in perfect enough harmony that they could sit on the Council. Being skilled means that they understand the Force and the dark side, and thus have found the balance within themselves to decide and to judge without emotion. Yoda dwarfs them all in terms of raw power, yet that is not why he is on the Council. It was his years of patience and understanding of the Force, that lead him to the Council and why he remained there to the end.

Anakin didn't think that he needed to be on the Council, but that Palpatine said that the Jedi need his help and that they should be grateful that he was using his executive power to put the boy on the Council. Anakin was upset that he wasn't going to be appointed Master, which went against the rules of the Council which was that you had to be a Master to sit as a member. He believe that all that he had done made him worthy of that rank, but that line of thinking stems from Palpatine.

 

Yaddle's a padawan, if you believe the EU story. She got on the council because she didn't turn dark even after centuries of confinement.

Amazingly, most people tend to get better at Force control and combat skills after many decades of experience and control. The council didn't get there by beating the other Jedi to the ground in gladiatorial matches, they each had their own realms of expertise that meant they could best advise other Jedi on issues that thew knew about, which probably include lightsaber combat and "force mojo".

 

The EU ... yes, the EU is different. But this is the saga forum, right? It's about George Lucas' movies, not someone elses interpretation of them.

Jocasta Nu was an old woman and she wasn't on the council, she was no more stupid than your average council member. Sinube in TCW (which was overseen by George) was as wise and experienced as any of the other masters and he wasn't on the council. He has a lifetime of detective work behind him. Both are NOT powerful force users. And they are not on the council.

In TPM, Qui-Gon is blown away when he discovers how many midis Anakin has. Midis make you special, and the more you have of the stuff, the more special you are, the more "worthy". They even memorize the count of powerful Jedi like Yoda, he is the yardstick to which young future Jedi are compared.

So no, they don't hold any gladiatorial matches, but they sure know each others force mojo count. And as you probably are aware of, it is heavily implied that the more of the bloodstream critters you have, the more super force feats you can do. Which in turn means that the persons with the most force critters get to sit on the council.

 

Again, Anakin had the most force critters and he only got into the council through Palpatine. Jocasta Nu wasn't on the council because she an archivist, when they get a question about databases, then they'll go to her. And she didn't even know or care about the archive breach. Same for Sinube. The council guys have to handle diplomacy, intergalactic relations, discipline, combat, warfare, internal administration, leadership...Neither Sinube nor Jocasta Nu fit that bill. They're both very oblivious.
Who on the council do you think do not deserve to be there?

 

The Council weren't appointed because they are the most powerful, they were appointed because they are the wisest, sagest and generally most experienced and savvy of the Order politically speaking... who also happen to be extremely powerful. Anakin's general approach to everything was 'If at first you don't succeed... do it again, EVEN HARDER!' but he had the mojo to actually pull it off, he lacked the tact and the subtlety needed to be a Council member (entirely separate to being a Master, there are Masters who weren't ever on the Council.) He was a perfect fighting Jedi, but there was more to being a Council member than just kicking butt and taking names, and he never realised that (again, mostly because Palps was in his ear the whole time.)

 

If you go by the EU, she used to be on the Council - before stepping down to devote herself to archiving.

 

jakobitis89
Again, I don't believe in this coincidence because, well, those Jedi were put on the council by the filmmaker. He decided it. And his idea obviously was that council members are more powerful than the Jedi grunts.

You're telling me your interpretation but the evidence points into another direction.

And as for Anakin not being made a council member: Not all powerful Jedi will be allowed on the council, but it is one prerequisite. Might makes right or the rules, in this case. The emphasis is also on "he is not ready yet" so they're planning to make him a council member when he is older and more mature because he has more force critters in his blood, of course. Other Jedi knights who are more wise and experienced than Anakin probably don't get the chance.

Exceptions will get made for those that don't follow the rules of purity. Like I said to jakobitis: Not all powerful Jedi will be allowed on the council, but it is one prerequisite.

What special skills does Mace Windu have besides being a warrior? Don't tell me he's a great diplomat or leader. The council could need good detectives. With Sinube and others in the council, maybe they could have uncovered Palpatine's ploy quicker.

 

Well, Mace is THE warrior Jedi of his generation, that's exactly what he did bring to the table, compared to Yoda's experience, Obi-Wan's diplomacy, etc etc. And I am not denying that the Council happens to contain some of the most powerful Jedi in the business. Of course it does - but their power is secondary/additional to their other skills and traits. Qui-Gonn was old enough and powerful enough that he could have sat on the Council if he'd wanted. There are others equally powerful, or nearly so, who don't want the position or aren't suited for whatever reason, Anakin is one of them. What insight would he bring, what new perspective? What skills does he have the others lack? The Council only acquiesced to Anakin getting a seat at all because it got them someone who could report on Palpatine directly to the Council (which he knew and counted on).

 

I'm still not really convinced, but I don't want to press the matter further. I think you give Lucas too much credit, to be honest. Your interpretation is more intelligent than what seems to be the case. So lets just agree to disagree.