Saga The Morality of Star Wars

Can you expand on this? F.ex. explain how the PT was Jedi was just following the rules because those are the rules instead of truly understanding/contemplating WHY those rules were made?

Beside Yoda and Mace, where is it stated that the council members were among the most powerful?

 

I can try Gamiel. The examples I tend to fall back on are Qui-Gonn and the way they treat/react to Anakin, as there is admittedly no point when any of them actually outright state 'because rules, end of.' In the case of Qui-Gonn we have a Jedi who is portrayed as a bit of a roguish type, with his 'live in the moment' philosophy and Obi-Wan's allusions to other times QG has gone directly in the face of Council orders, as he was going to do with Anakin before Maul made the point moot. At no point however is he portrayed as doing anything vaguely interpretable as 'Dark' nor can his loyalty to the Republic be questioned. Now to me, logically it would seem a pretty good idea to appoint such a figure onto the Council because he goes against the generally accepted view, having a devil's advocate type to raise alternative perspectives and point out flaws can help them understand the situation better even if they do overrule said Jedi in the end. QG himself would probably have turned the role down anyway, but someone like pre-fall Dooku who also had issues with the Council but would have wanted to work with them would have been suitable for the role too.

In the case of Anakin and his eventual fall it's magnified by his own flaws but it has to be said the Council mishandled their end of the deal too. He came to them older than most Padawans, having made attachments to his mother and to QG and Padme, and with his slave past it's not illogical to suppose he just might have a few issues with authority figures to deal with. The Council DO decide he'll get training but we never see any sign that they might need to adjust the process for a clearly exceptional case (in terms of his power, and the aforementioned issues he's carrying), Padawans train this way so dammit, he'll train that way too. Even later on, when it becomes more and more apparent Anakin is not in a good place no-one (except Palps) offers anything other than typical Jedi platitudes to a guy who is obviously not a typical Jedi and despite the fact this approach hasn't worked for Anakin before. They keep on reacting to the situation and treating it like they would with a more typical 'normal' Jedi despite the fact Anakin IS NOT A NORMAL JEDI. I don't mean he should get special treatment necessarily but they persist in thinking that eventually the Jedi way will get through to him... because it's the Jedi way, that's how it worked for them.

In both these instances no-one on the Council seems to even contemplate thinking outside the box even a little. They do exactly what the Code says they 'should' do without anyone seeming to consider the fact the code was written in a different time for a different Galaxy. After hundreds of years, even the most foresighted and forward-thinking code of rules and regulations is going to be outdated, but this is swept under the metaphorical carpet.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Darth_Pevra yeah we clearly disagree on this one. I respect your argument though even if I don't agree with it! I may well be totally off base but I just call what I see and it's not impossible I am seeing what I want to not what is there.

 

OKay..so, the Jedi test Anakin. If they were just following rules why would they test him? By which I mean, if the rule is "he is too old" and they were simply 'following orders' there would be no reason for them to test him, they would just say "he is too old. End of."

They test him and see that his thoughts focus on his mother, that he is attached, that he is fearful. In fact the insights they have are exactly what lead to his fall, and why Obi-Wan berates Qui-Gon with the question of why he can't see what the other Jedi do.

And....you say that Qui-Gon is shown not "doing anything vaguely interpret-able as 'Dark'" but.... he is indignant at the other Jedi's refusal to see what he sees and is clearly intent on going against their collective wisdom. He is not willing to contemplate the very real danger that they all sense 'in the moment'. Qui-Gon even hides his true thoughts....lies and manipulates his words...which the Jedi see through

Qui-Gon - "I don't presume..." [that Anakin is the Chosen One]
Yoda - "But you do. Revealed your thoughts are"

and then a little later

"He is the Chosen One. You must see it"

Also, when Obi-Wan is questioning him he responds to Anakin that "His future is uncertain..." but, he sees a certainty in that future which blinds him (ironically) to the state of Anakin in the here and now. He follows this argument of 'uncertainty' with "He is the Chosen One. He will bring balance to the Force"

In terms of how the Jedi train Anakin...I'm not sure what they are supposed to do to 'make allowance' for Anakin. If he can't, on a very basic level 'get' what being a Jedi is (which, throughout AOTC and ROTS, he demonstrates he can't)...then, what are the Jedi to do with him? Allow him to be a Jedi but not be like a Jedi??

I could go on but....like Darth Pevra I don't give unlimited credit to Lucas. There is a lack of narrative cognizance that strides through the PT. Qui-Gon is supposed to be a 'rogue'...I get that, but he goes further than that. He is hypocritical, cold, manipulative and truly dogmatic..yet TCW (and Lucas' ideas of him having 'discovered the path to immortality err..'the ability to be one with the Force and retain consciousness' ) portray him as the 'Ultimate' Jedi.

Decisions that are made have little explanation. Why did the Jedi decide to change their mind and train Anakin? Because they now believe the prophecy? But...Anakin's acting on his vision is shown as what brings about his fall, but here we're supposed to believe that acting on a different incomplete, poorly understood vision is the right thing to do? Even though by doing so Anakin helps to bring about the dark times?

In a way the whole structure of the PT might be seen as ....a lazy narrative structure. What I mean by that is, it is a given that Anakin will fall (he becomes vader). To that end Lucas ensured that he will be discovered at just the right age, with just the attachment issues, with just the insecurity (having been a slave) that his fall will be 'inevitable' as a result of his Jedi training. But how to get the Jedi to agree to train him. Oh.....a prophecy, that'll work, That will force the Jedi's hand.

Anakin and Padmé are going to be Luke and Leia's parents...how to get them together....err,,,let's not put too much thought into it, Padmé can have a malleable character, her characterisation will morph to fit her role...which is simply to be what she is required to be at any given point of Anakin's story.

There are so many unanswered questions. If the Jedi are so bent on 'purity' (and other argue it is their lack of this notion of 'purity' that is there downfall...make of that what you will in terms of narrative cognizance) then how did they allow a mass-murderer to become a Jedi Knight, for instance.

If you look at any set of events in any sort of detail then the narrative breaks down. The minute you put any sort of thought into trying to understand motivations then..scenes and the story break down. It's not as if there is a narrative structure within which there exists some dissonance it is that the whole narrative structure is implicitly dissonant.

 

What we've heard of the Prophecy, at no point did it ever say that a Jedi would bring balance to the Force. It just said there would be a Chosen One, and everyone agreed that it was Anakin who was referred to. The Council changed their minds mainly because Maul's appearance was the first confirmation they had that the Sith were back - before then only Qui-Gonn (who had fought Maul in person) actually believed there was any imbalance in the first place, hence his insistence on Anakin being trained - he had seen something that the others hadn't yet. Now I do concede that his reputation far exceeds his actual characterisation but he was absolutely correct that it would be Anakin who bought balance to the Force, and he was killed well before he actually managed to do anything other than get Anakin off Tattooine so can't really take too much blame for how things played out - he didn't manage to contact Yoda through the force until late in Episode 3 by which time Anakin's already gone well off the deep end. The whole point is that in the prequels the Chosen One, this super special individual with all that power, is a deeply flawed person. Vader always had elements of tragedy even when we knew nothing more than he used to be Obi-Wan's apprentice, the prequels just made it explicit.

There are problems with Lucas' writing, no doubts about that. Lots of them, from the ropey dialogue and boring political scenes all the way up to Padme who flip-flops between three or four different characterisations then drops dead from plotitis. But your criticism of the lazy plot structure seems a bit of a dig for it's own sake. Yes, it's a given Anakin will fall. But if he'd grown up perfectly happy and well adjusted and a normal Jedi then it would be incredibly contrived for him to just switch sides and decide to be evil. No-one just wakes up one day, looks at the calendar and sees 'October 16th - commit genocide: 9:30, overthrow democracy: 13:25.' The whole point of how Anakin was found was that even then it was obvious there was potential problems, hence Yoda's express comments regarding 'the path to the Dark Side' (subtlety is not Lucas' forte). Not training him was the right thing to do, that was the entire point. He WAS too old. He DID have too much anger and fear. The Jedi were wrong, their mistakes were just as much to blame for the situation as Anakin's own flaws.

You can break down any narrative if you pry into it enough, that's hardly exclusive to the prequels.

 

I agree. That's very lucidly put. I've found the same in looking at the narrative lots of times. I'm also a big Harry Potter fan but the story there is tight and detailed and does hold together under scutiny - it really works, all the way through. Even the parts of the story which Rowling has said that she would change if she wrote it again (the Hermione-Ron relationship) still works well and fits. Lucas' story is very different in that respect. I've often thought that he really doesn't like fixing things as facts, but prefers ot be able to change anything at anytime. I think this is one of the reasons his story has some of these weaknesses. I also think this tendancy causes multiple inconsistencies and vaguely bad-fitting answers to narrative questions. It's why there are so many widely differing veiws of meaning in the films, including the morals of all of the characters and groups. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE star wars and I am thankful that GL wrote it - watching it for the first time was one of the most wonderful moments of my childhood - but I think the narrative is weak, especially in the PT where the story he's tellling is more complicated.

I think the prophecy did say that the chosen one would bering balance to the force...
Dialogue from ROTS:

Obi-Wan: You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.

The prophecy written out from 'The Jedi Path: A manual for students of the force':

In the time of greatest despair,
a child shall be born
who will destroy the Sith
and bring balance to the Force.

I never understood why they changed their minds - this makes perfect sense! Very insightful. Thank-you!

True, but I think the prequal's narrative falls apart much more easily that most others. The Dune TV series, the Harry Potter books and films, Firefly film, TV and comics, Do Anroids Dream of Electric Sheep / Blade Runner, LOTR, The Inheritance Cycle, all of Pratchett's Discworld novels - all of these have much much stronger stories as far as I can see. I think the PT narrative structure is very weak as soon as you dig into it. (Still enjoyed the films though - it's just that afterwards there were many things which didn't seem to make sense, fit properly, or just seemed wedged in that they caused a lot of distraction for me from enjoying the films.)


Edit: Added this...
PS:

Sorry, in my diagram I meant to show the Jedi up near the ultimate good end - not at it! I chose Obi-Wan because he's my model of exactly what a Jedi should be - but it's just a personal opinion and he's just an example of a good guy.

 

We have a prophecy that says a child will be born and bring balance to the force, check. It doesn't say a child will be born, trained as a Jedi, and use that skill to bring balance to the force. In fact as quote there it doesn't even mention that the chosen one actually has any force connectivity whatsoever. For all we know that poor shmuck who crashed into the Star Destroyer in Return Of The Jedi was the REAL chosen one - he bought down the Star Destroyer, which hit the Death Star and would have blown it up and killed the Sith. All of the shenanigans with Yoda's and Obi-Wan's manipulation of Luke and his heroic refusal to turn etc is just a sideshow to the real will of the force!

(I am joking. At least, I think I am.)

 

LOL

I see what you mean - I thought you meant that they chosen was was not prophesied to bring balance, but you actually mean that the chosen, who will bring balance, need not have been a Jedi. Good point. Thanks!

 

At what point did I suggest he had to have grown up happy and well adjusted (though at least seemingly happy and well adjusted might have been more convincing in terms of Obi-Wan's OT viewpoint)?

And....the idea that someone might wake up one day and commit atrocities...isn't that pretty much what we end up with Anakin's fall. As in ' I need to you go kill all the Jedi...and I mean all the Jedi...you know what I mean, like all of them' and Anakin switches from a passion lead maniac to a passionless, cold killer...just like that (clicks fingers)....I mean, we even get him turning round with 'Sith eyes' at one point for crying out loud.

Surely there isn't simply a polarity of options here (ie immediate switch vs damaged goods)? How about, I don't know, a good man who becomes seduced by the darkside...ie starts to believe justifications for his actions, starts to swallow Palpatine's justifications. Just a thought.

And I get that at points narratives can break down, but with the PT it seems to be the case that whatever scenarion you put any thought to...it breaks down. I can't, honestly, think of one scenario from the PT that doesn't just fall to pieces the minute you consider the motivations or abilities of the characters involved. It isn't 'criticism for it's own sake' it is an observation.

To highlight something Joanne2108 said regarding the huge variance of opinions; you say here that

" Not training him was the right thing to do, that was the entire point. He WAS too old. He DID have too much anger and fear. The Jedi were wrong, their mistakes were just as much to blame for the situation as Anakin's own flaws."



this is entirely contradictory to another poster I debated with (regarding the exact same problems), because he claimed that the Jedi were right to train Anakin..because ..."faith" or some such notion.

The more I've thought about this the more it has become clear there really is no true narrative structure. It's like a series of events that occur that involve characters who appear to be the same but actually might only share a name and appearance with each other.

 

Yes, faith that Anakin would adhere to the Jedi training and become the kind of Jedi necessary to defeat the Sith, rather than stray from the path of righteousness.

 

In which case...their faith was misplaced.

And, of course, your position is that they were right to train Anakin (for the reason you gave above) but...somehow wrong in how they did (or just wrong on some other notion...which appears to be a form of 'impurity' which contradicts another argument here regarding their over-insistence on 'purity'), so it is still an opposite position from the one I was responding to here (that the Jedi were wrong to train Anakin).

 

Except it wasn't since in the end, Anakin brings balance to the Force.

 

Which (in context, with regards to the discussion as it stands) is an entirely opposite position from the one I was responding to - and that was my point (in context)


But as for faith...faith in what? The prophecy? Did the prophecy say he would destroy the Sith through his power and capabilities? Lucas has said the prophecy is fulfilled in ROTJ. Given that it is a prophecy that means that the events of ROTJ are what were foreseen - that they were the prophecised events.

It doesn't make sense for a prophecy to be coherent with any number of possible outcomes...that's not a prophecy then is it, it's a vague forecast.

 

The prophecy itself is really too vague in fairness, like I say there are problems with the writing and that is definitely one of them. However, what we do know of the prophecy turns out to be correct: Anakin does bring balance to the force, by killing Palpatine, then in his own death the last of the Sith dies too. The prophecy doesn't say 'don't worry, Jedi dudes, the chosen one's got your back, you'll all make it out unscathed' and it doesn't go into enough detail either in-universe or out for us to be sure whether if QG had never met Anakin he'd somehow have got off Tattooine and brought about balance some other way, which is weak writing frankly and I acknowledge that.

The prophecy doesn't say exactly what route the chosen one's going to take, it doesn't say the Jedi won't be nearly wiped out too along the way, merely that the Sith will be gone... and they are. So QG wasn't wrong to insist Anakin was the chosen one, and the prophecy was 100% correct... it just didn't give enough detail. Which is kind of sloppy truth be told. At least with things like Harry Potter the whole predestiny thing actually makes sense than just 'this will happen one day. the end.'

 

The faith is in Anakin and the Force. Faith that he was the Chosen One and faith that what was foreseen was the correct outcome. As to the last part, it still doesn't change that Anakin's deed was foreseen, but not the choices that he would make in his life. It was always a vague forecast, but it was recorded as a prophecy by someone who apparently kept tabs on all these different visions of the future.

 

The Chosen One destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force, just as the prophecy said.

A prophecy is simply a prediction of the future. It's not necessarily completely exact nor does it imply the nature of what will happen.

 

Sorry to have to pick the point up again here.....But, what is this business about 'faith in the Force'? You've mentioned some vague forecast (which somehow its right to act on if its really old, but not right to act on if you've just had one - a la Anakin's vision of Padmé's death), and something about Anakin's choices but.....what has any of that to do with the Force?

 

There's a bit more to it than that though, isn't there? It isn't necessarily right (given what you have said) that Qui-Gon was correct, except in as much as - following his acting on the prophecy the prophecy came true.

What I mean by that is....if Anakin hadn't been trained, if Qui-Gon had not either discovered him or forced the issue then would all that came about (the dark times) have come about? Anakin is pretty integral to those later outcomes.

To put that another way. If Anakin hadn't acted on his vision would Padmé have died in child-birth? Are they not both prophecies/visions made in the context of fear?

Didn't acting on this vision bring about the events in the same way that Anakin acting on his brought about the fulfillment of his? So, if training Anakin brought about the dark times how could Qui-Gon's choices then be seen as being correct?

If not, then what is the difference? How come one vision is good to act on, and the other is bad?! You should be wary of premonitions but not if they're really old?

 

It was right to follow through on Anakin being trained, because it was a decision born out of logic and without emotion. i.e., "The Sith are back and this boy may be the Chosen One and so we must train him, if the prophecy is true." Anakin acting as he does is wrong, because he is emotional the whole time. He is making choices based out of fear, rather than logically. i.e., "I lost my mother when I ignored my visions and now I'm going to lose my wife, unless I do something to stop it. I promised myself, I promised my mother and I promised Padme that I would learn to stop people from dying. I will not fail again."

The Jedi must have faith in Anakin that he will make the right choices and they must put faith in the prophecy that he will do so and that he is the one, since it was foreseen that he will bring balance by destroying the Sith.

The dark times were already going to happen because Palpatine had a plan that didn't include Anakin. He had trained Maul from a young age and he had converted Dooku in order to get the job done. Maul got himself taken out of the equation, but here's an unexpected bonus. Someone who may be powerful enough to get the job done.

If Anakin hadn't acted, then she wouldn't have been choked by him and Padme would still be alive. Her death in childbirth was a future based on Anakin's dark deeds when he killed Dooku.

 

I'll ask the question again (as you haven't addressed it) what has anything you have said to do with the Force?

Well...it wasn't his power that did the job was it? So, that aspect of the prophecy is actually irrelevant to the outcome. You say that his plan didn't involve Anakin but...it didn't involve Maul dying either. However Anakin does get rid of Dooku for him (and Dooku may have been an obstacle to Palpatine's sole power) and he stops Mace from finishing him off... He played a pretty important part in putting Palpatine in control.

Exactly my point. So....."Premonitions, premonitions. Difficult to see the future is" "Always in motion the future is" only applies to recent visions? If Anakin had written his vision down in some vague way it might have become right to act on it at some future point?

Surely a prophecy of a "Chosen One" bringing balance to the Force and destroying the Sith is a prophecy made in fear (the vision is clearly of a time when the Force is out of balance and the Sith reign - so a pretty apocalyptic vision. A paranoid vision?)....so, why is it a good thing to act on this prophecy (or as you put it earlier " it was a decision born out of logic and without emotion. ") whereas its a bad thing to act on Anakin's vision? I mean to say, you argue that it is logical and not emotional, but how can it possibly be no emotional when it is inspired by the appearance of the Sith (so...fear). How is it any more logical to follow this vision than it is logical for Anakin to act on his?

 

This is further supported by the fact that Padmé was perfectly [medically] healthy when she died, it was her loss of the will to live due to Anakin's actions that killed her.

 

I'm not sure why Lucas didn't make Anakin the murderer of Padmé, she could have died of asphyxiation or another choke-related cause. What's the point in using this most weird cause of death? It's not like Anakin didn't murder a bunch of children before, not murdering his wife wouldn't really make him a better person at that point. It doesn't prove that "there's still good in him". I try to understand why Lucas did it, but I can't. Did he think it romantic that the girl dies as soon as the guy leaves her?

 

I don't think that's why she died of a broken heart at all. It wasn't rooted in her it was the devastation of his ruin and how it warped him.

 

Yes it was grief that killed her, her grief for a man.

Neither her job nor her newborn kids motivated her enough to fight on. Padmé was used as a pretty porcellaine doll in ROTS.

 

I think Lucas is trying to communicate how strong their bond was, and how much hatred Anakin has left in him after the encounter.

Padmé dying of a 'broken heart' just shows how necessary it was for them to be together. They literally cannot live without each other.