Saga The Morality of Star Wars

@only one Kenobi Yeah, the whole prophecy thing is the one bit we both agree was definitely weak. I would say though that in both cases of prophecy/foresight the action/inaction was never actually part of the original vision. The Prophecy about the Chosen One never mentioned the Chosen One's training - for all the Jedi knew he could be a Sith who tries to pull a Darth Bane, overdoes it and wipes out every single Sith in existence. Or maybe he's some non force-sensitive muggle who somehow invents an anti-Sith weapon that leads to them being wiped out. The Jedi's own pride is what leads them to assume the Chosen One is a Jedi.

In fact, in both cases the worst came to the worst because people (in one case the Jedi Council, in the other Anakin himself) decide the prophecy NEEDS acting upon instead of realising that if the prophecy is actually prophecy not just a prediction of a possible future then whatever they do is immaterial.

 

Because it is the Force that allows these visions to exist.

Anakin's power is why he was able to kill Palpatine. As Anakin Skywalker, Dooku overpowered him with the lightning. But as Vader, he's able to stand up to it. The power levels that he has is the result of how he was born. As to the rest, Palpatine's plans changed based on events that he didn't foresee. Dooku was to be a scapegoat from day one and his elimination was part of the plan for ending the war. All that changed was that it would be Anakin who kills him in order to help secure his turn to the dark side. As to the confrontation with Mace, circumstances would have been different had Anakin not be found or he had chosen not to come to the Chancellor's office when he did. Palpatine is always altering the plans based on the actions of those surrounding him. Anakin was supposed to have turned earlier, but he didn't. So Palpatine devised a new scenario. The one with Mace was only contingent on Anakin making a choice to join him or not. He had a back up in case Anakin didn't show or he sensed that the boy wasn't going to side with him.

We don't know when the vision was first recorded. It could have been four thousand years ago, or even further back. But it was a time when the Force was in balance and the Sith were not wiped out. After the last battle with the Sith, the Jedi had believed them to be wiped out and so they no longer placed any faith in the prophecy. Qui-gon believed in it based on his encounter with Serenity and his own journey before going to Naboo, as well as evidence that said this is what's going on. The Council disbelieves because of their arrogance and pride. Later, they opt to train Anakin but still skeptical which is why Mace and Yoda always say "If the prophecy is true". They're putting faith in it and in Anakin, but they aren't sure. Later, their faith starts to waver because of what Anakin does. Then he turns and they lose complete faith in Anakin, but Yoda and Obi-wan have faith in his children. They believe that they might have misread the meaning of what was foretold and that it could mean either child.

The Jedi trusting is sound because they make the choice logically. They conclude that if it is true, then this boy who is quite exceptional and was discovered at the same time the Sith made their presence known, means that they might be connected. That if he is the one, then he should be prepared to face the Sith. Anakin isn't thinking things out logically. He is acting selfishly and through fear. He doesn't trust in the Force, he only trusts in Palpatine. He doesn't ask himself why he is seeing these visions. He is believing 100% that she will die and he cannot stop it, whereas the Jedi aren't 100% certain Anakin is the Chosen One, but they're putting their faith in him as they are taking precautions by training him.

It isn't that he leaves her, but that he betrayed their love by becoming selfish. By turning his back on everything that he once cared for, simply because he wanted power. Earlier, she says that love has blinded Anakin. Well, it was that way with her as well. She was blind to how bad he was becoming and when she saw the truth, it was a shock to her system. She is selfish as well for not finding the strength to press on. Years later, Leia proves to be stronger as she is able to prioritize her emotions and not let them overwhelm her.

 

We never actually see Leia deal with her emotions properly, which is unfortunate. She is able to set them aside temporarily which is commendable but seeing her entire planet destroyed and her family and friends exterminated (and having to deal with the guilt - Alderaan was chosen simply because Leia herself happened to be Alderaanian, she's not to blame but will feel responsible initially) is not the kind of thing you can just suppress forever. It could have been a pretty good way to give the relationship with Han a bit of a more tender moment to go with the perpetual 'old married couple' bickering - he sees her hurting and helps her, or heck even just bites back a particularly scathing comment. Still preferable to Padme who after two movies of appearing to be a genuinely awesome young lady devolves into a hormonal weak-willed wuss and dies because plot.

 

No one said that Leia suppressed her emotions. She just didn't give into despair. As she told Commander Willard, "We don't have time for our sorrows, Commander." She kept her priorities straight and mourned Alderaan and her family later.

 

Exactly. The Jedi 'dogma' was their pursuing the prophecy, it was Qui-Gon's dogma that they took on board. For all we know...maybe Anakin was destined to do a 'Paul Atreides' with the Tuskens on Tatooine

You should have faith in something because it allows something to be? So...I could have faith in, let's say, a punchbag...because it allows me to let off steam?

The first part is very tendentious, it isn't Anakin's power that brings about the destruction of the Emperor, it is simply his self-sacrifice (and just to note that the Emperor's lightening doesn't send Luke flying anywhere). And you say that things would have been different had Anakin not been there, and that Palpatine is "..always altering the plans based on the actions of those surrounding him"...he also has to change his plans because things don't go as he planned. He didn't expect, for example, Maul to get himself killed. Mace had Palpatine defeated all ways up and Palpatine alters his plan with the arrival of Anakin. Your claim is that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming and when he was coming; that Palpatine is feigning his weakness but...that isn't what Lucas says. He says Palpatine feigns his weakness only at the end to get Anakin to act. And Dooku may well have always been intened as a scapegoat...but Palpatine still needs to dispense with him in order to have "unlimited power"...he doesn't want to share, and Anakin is responsible for that. Above you claim that the Jedi were right to have faith in the Force because it allows visions (and..ahem, one of those visions it allowed lead to Anakin's fall....) but here you try to diminish what Anakin allowed...?!

Hang on...so the Force was in balance when the Sith weren't destroyd...but the prophecy equates balance in the Force with the destruction of the Sith? And if 'misread it could have been' then it could have been misread in many ways. By the same token Anakin's own vision (which the Force in it's wisdom allowed Anakin to have) was also misread. Should Anakin, then, still have faith in visions? If by following the prophecy they brought about the dark times...why would the Jedi still have faith in it? Sorry but that just strikes me as gormless, We don't know what the prophecy actually says, we seem to have got it wrong this time...perhaps it means something else....(or maybe...just maybe it meant exactly what came to be you idiots)

Just to start off by saying...there is truly a problem with a narrative (as I see it) when it can be argued as "logical" to follow a prophecy. How are they acting "logically"? In the same way as...I don't know, an earthquake following on from religious warnings of impiety is seen as a message from the gods, a punishment. In that sense (and that sense only) is the idea 'we have become aware of the Sith...and we have discovered this boy, therefore...' "logical". In other words, in any other realm apart from that of the religiously insane it is not "logical". It is a decision made in fear.

 

No. A punching bag does not grant one wisdom and knowledge as the Force does. That is part of their creed as Yoda states to Luke in TESB and what Serenity states in TCW. A Jedi is ever seeking knowledge and wisdom, ever learning from the Force in order to become stronger. In order to gain a deeper connection to the Force and thus to life itself. Part of that knowledge is precognition. Learning of possible futures and how to best act in accordance to what is seen. And part of that is to have faith in the Force that what they see and the actions that are or aren't taken, are the correct ones.

Luke falls to the ground and cannot stand up to it. When Anakin was blasted, he couldn't stand up to it. Mace couldn't stand up to it. Yoda could barely stand up to it. But as Vader, he is able to stand up to it long enough to pick Palpatine and walk three to four feet and deposit him down the reactor shaft. Vader could only self sacrifice if he used the Force to stand up long enough to kill Palpatine. Or are you going to tell me the power of love made him stand that long, much less walk.

That's not what I was saying. Palpatine anticipated that Anakin wouldn't stay in his office and join him. And in anticipating, he prepared for an outcome that would deal with that possibility. He was overconfident with Maul, a mistake he wouldn't repeat. When he senses Anakin's arrival, that is when he chooses to fake weakness. But he is not without resources. He still has the Force and he still has his other Lightsaber. If the boy chooses to act or not act, he will deal with that. He will not let himself be cut down by Mace.

As to the visions, they come but it is up to the person to decide how to respond to them. They show the path, but they cannot force them to take it or to not take it.

The Force only starts to go out of balance during the time of the films. Not during the last war with the Sith. It is the actions of Palpatine that causes it, not the Sith in general. When he blurs the line between good and evil.

"In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

Ergo, the balance was fine and now it is starting to decline. What Yoda refers to about it being misread is who will bring balance as he is not so sure that it is Anakin. He knows that the destruction of the Sith is key, but the one who will do it is uncertain. This is why they put faith in the twins.

Faith is always a welcomed thing, but one must use caution and wisdom in when trying to understand a vision. Anakin did not which is why he fell.

The dark times were going to come regardless of training Anakin or not. The plan was already in place and the Jedi were already powerless to stop it. The only thing Anakin did was participate in it, not stop it. If they didn't train him, they'd still be up **** creek only there wouldn't be anyone to train Anakin and Luke and Leia wouldn't exist.

No, it isn't made in fear. The Jedi know that they are in a conundrum. They have someone who is strong in the Force and has no father. He is an unusually gifted child whose birth defies all conventional norms. He is unique. A child born without a father, created by the Midichlorians and the Force is not an every day occurrence. A prophecy states that such a person would be discovered one day. This same prophecy states that the Sith would disrupt the balance of the Force, yet the Jedi have believed that the Sith are no more and could never make a comeback without their knowing it. Yet, a mysterious warrior has appeared who appears to be a Sith and is later confirmed to be one. Yoda, the strongest and wisest of the Jedi, can sense that the Force is not kosher and hasn't been for a while. He believes this is why they didn't know of the Sith sooner. The signs were there and the Council makes the choice to train Anakin on the off chance he was the Chosen One. It is the logical thing to do because if they don't and the Sith are truly back and things go to hell, then he is the only one who can stop them.

It is a decision that was carefully weighed and decided upon. It was not made lightly and not out of fear. They considered all options and different scenarios and they decided that this was the best course of action. They're still not certain, but they're having faith that it is. Just as they put faith in Luke being trained after he was raised by the Lars and developed an attachment to his loved ones.

 

The idea of countless millions of self aware, sentient beings being bred specifically to send like lambs to the slaughter makes me feel kind of sick, frankly.

 

Which is one reason why "Dooku's a good guy at heart" advocates cut little ice with me. He's Tyranus, the man who hired Jango and got that army created, in the first place.

 

Sorry.....at what point did you say anything about giving wisdom? I asked you what the things you spoke of initially had to do with faith in the Force, because none of it seemed to reference the Force. You then said it was because it "allowed" these visions.....how does that relate to "wisdom". But, you answer that with the conceit that "precognition" is part of the knowledge. Now...is it?

Every time we hear of precognition (apart from the prophecy) we are told that one is to be wary of it. That "difficult to see, the future is" and that it is "always in motion..." In fact in every other instance if precognition it is deemed irresponsible to act on visions, on premonitions. And part of that is the the future is always in motion. So...what brings Anakin's vision about, what makes it come true is his acting on it. At no point are we shown acting on visions as ending well. Anakin falls and throttles his wife; Anakin loses his rag and slaughters a village of Tuskens; Luke nearly gets himself killed/captured and loses his hand in the process.

Yet here, in this vaguely remembered, poorly understood vision....because it is 'from the past' we are supposed to believe that all good things will come from it? What have visions to do with a Force it is right to have "faith in" if those visions are a path to destruction? And having possible futures...how does that help to know how to best act in accordance with what is seen? It clearly doesn't. And you misrepresent what Yoda says to Luke, for he does not imply that acting on visions is a good thing at all. He does not put that idea forward as "part of their creed".....quite the opposite in fact.

So...why would every other vision be seen as a bad thing to act on ...because here is limited information and one really cannot predict what will bring these events about. In fact by acting on them then that very act may indeed bring about what occurs. The thing about the prophecy is that it is so vague....."misread it could have been". Now, you say that the Jedi come to believe it may be another that is the "Chosen One", that it may be Luke or Leia but....that doesn't make any sense in terms of what we know about the pprophecy. Listen to the discussion in TPM. It is a convergence of the Force, about a person. It is Anakin. The only sense to be made of what we know of the prophecy is that what occus occurs because of the prophecy (ie because they act on it) and that that includes the dark times. And, of course, that makes sense entirely with every other incident of Jedi acting on visions.

So....you're really arguing that at the end of ROTJ it is about Anakin's power? So...the whole emphasis from the OT in these scenes must be obliterated for the sake of this version of events? The whole point of those scenes is that it isn't about power. This goes to the heart of what I have said about the PT changing, massively, the story..and losing so much of what the story was in the process.

Of course....you know how lightening works yes? By having hold of the Emperor Vader limits the power that he can use....because he will be frying himself along with Vader.

It's just a nonsense, in my opinion, to argue that Vader's destroying the Emperor is about his power...

So....though you say that's not what you're saying you then go on to describe it as exactly what I was saying..??! You have to invent/imagine so much of this story, it simply isn't implicit in the movie. There is no way Palpatine can be certain that Anakin will come, even less when...unless we ascribe absolute prescience to him...but as we know he gets much wrong then it would be foolish to do so. It would be very, very weak story telling to have him in this instance gain a level of prescience he never has at any other time in the movies. Lucas says Mace is defeating Palpatine, and he says that his feigning weakness is at the end of the fight only, once Anakin is there. Given your usual reliance on what Lucas says I'm surprised that you deem it acceptable to ignore him in this instance and go with a power of sentience for Palpatine that is never seen anywhere else in the movies.

And...second lightsabre....later invention. There is no such idea in the movies.

Hmmm...but aren't the visions down to the Force "allowing" them? Then why did it "allow" Anakin's vision? Of course "allow" is such a...vague, loose term. This is the problem with a 'greater power' as agent. Because, the minute one starts to question why it allows this bad thing or that bad thing.....but doesn't allow this or that good thing then, it's powers conveniently (in the moment) shrink away and it becomes then subject to some other influence...which makes it a bit of a ...well, pathetic kind of deity, hardly worthy of faith really.

To quote (allegedly) Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil. but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both willing and able?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

???! What? There is something particularly evil about this particular Sith? This is a special condition of Sith-ness...other Sith aren't all bad? Just what sense does this even make? What is this story?

That doesn't say anything about a specificality of imbalance around Palpatine, or that only in this period is there an imbalance. You describe one set of ideas and produce a quote which says no such thing.

And..what makes you think Yoda is talking about only "who" will be this "chosen one"? You say it as if it is a fact but, he might mean any number of things. He might mean that by following the prophecy they may bring it about (just as Anakin misread his vision). It might mean they may have been wrong in thinking he ought to have been trained as a Jedi. You are beginning to state an awful lot as 'facts' which are no such thing.

What sort of faith? In what? Who welcomes it? Not just Anakin but....every time we see someone act on precognition...but you argue not in this case where the precognition is really vague and very, very old....??!

Again you are stating things as 'fact' which are not. Anakin helped Palpatine bring about the dark times. One cannot say, if not Anakin then someone else...Anakin did. Had he not would someone else have? Is it not precisley for his power that Palpatine desires him on his side?

I've been looking but...I can't find these scenes where the Jedi deliberate on their decision. Is this another 'fact' which is not. In the films we see them deliberate regarding the danger of training Anakin (and their deliberations were correct)...the next we see is, the Sith have been confirmed and decided to train the boy the Council have agreed. I don't see deliberation, they know what dangers that path holds and they disregard it (to their cost)

And, odd that you keep insisting that Yoda, particularly, is a believer in the prophecy for, when he informs Obi-Wan that the Council agree....he states clearly that he does not. It is Yoda who is sceptical throughout "a prophecy which misread might have been"

 

Yoda doesn't say a Jedi shouldn't act on visions. He warns that a Jedi must be aware of the dark side when looking to the future. That they must not act on fear when dealing with future omens. He never says that a Jedi must not look to the future. He even teaches that as Obi-wan says.

OBI-WAN: "Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future."

He wouldn't teach that to the Padawans, now would he? Nor would he and Mace say what they say about the Clone Army.


YODA: "Blind we are if creation of this Clone Army, we could not see."

MACE: "I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."


Yoda warns Anakin and Luke to not make decisions about the future based out of fear.

YODA: "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."


The Skywalker men act out of fear because they're not fully trained as Jedi. They have yet to let go of their hubris, their fear and their attachments. When seeing visions, especially like these, they must view them without emotion. Without attachment.

SERENITY: "You must pass through the valley of extinction. Pass through without emotion, without attachment, for you will see our faces there and they will seduce you."


Likewise what Kanan and Ezra discuss.

EZRA: "You always say I should trust the Force. I thought that's what I was doing."

KANAN: "Your emotions clouded the vision. It takes -

EZRA: "Training and discipline?"

KANAN: "To see things clearly, yes. Visions are difficult, almost impossible to interpret."

Emotions are the problem. When one reacts emotionally, they can and will make poor choices based on what they see as they will come at the problem emotionally. When it came to the prophecy, the Jedi were still weary. First of it being true as the Sith were thought to be long dead. Then they find out that the Sith are back, but they are unsure of the boy. But they choose to err on the side of caution by training him. But they are always uncertain.

Qui-gon thinks that Anakin is the Chosen One because of how he appeared at the same time the Sith returned. But even he wasn't entirely certain.

OBI-WAN: "I have trained him as well as I could, but he is willful and balance eludes him."

QUI-GON: "If he is the Chosen One, then he will find it here."

He believed, but even Qui-gon wasn't entirely certain because Anakin's future was clouded, even from where he was in the Netherealm of the Force. And Yoda himself also stated that Anakin's future was clouded. He could go many different ways. With the emergence of the Skywalker children and Anakin's conversion to the dark side, Yoda and Obi-wan believe that the future lies with them. They have the same potential as their father and it could be either one of them who is the Chosen One. All they knew, all the prophecy said, was that a person strong in the Force would bring balance by destroying the Sith.

The PT didn't change anything. You're just not paying attention or I think you're misunderstanding. Anakin defeats Palpatine because of his love for Luke, but he is able to withstand the barrage because Anakin is using the Force to keep himself upright long enough to destroy him. The PT didn't change this since we see Luke is unable to block it himself. Seeing other Jedi being knocked down by it doesn't change anything. It re-enforces how powerful the dark side can be to those who are not prepared for it.

I'm not ignoring Lucas. Palpatine has his hooks in Anakin. He knows that the boy is being lured by power. He is playing a dangerous game, but he knows that the boy will go for it. The boy wants the power to save his wife, but is struggling with his loyalty to both sides of the conflict. He anticipates that the boy will come back after he leaves for the Temple. Either with the Jedi, or on his own accord. But he is very certain that the boy will come. When Anakin does come, Palpatine changes his advantage, but he is not beaten yet. Mace has an advantage, but the fight is not over yet.

You might want to re-watch the film. Palpatine's Lightsaber falls out the window when he is kicked by Mace. Meaning it is gone down where Mace follows shortly after. He cannot retrieve it, but he has another Lightsaber. Palpatine always had two Lightsabers, long before TCW. That's why the novelization and the visual dictionary both state that Palpatine had two Lightsabers. Both books came out right before the film did. TCW just showed him using both at the same time. When Lucas filmed the duel originally, Palpatine used Anakin's Lightsaber.





When Lucas re-did ACT II, he changed the start of the duel so that Anakin wasn't in Palpatine's office to begin with. In having Anakin arrive almost too late, Lucas needed to have a Lightsaber for Palpatine. But he also needed it to be unavailable when Mace has Palpatine cornered. Hence when Mace kicks Palpatine, the Lightsaber goes out the window. But in order for it to be there in the duel with Yoda, Lucas said that Palpatine has two Lightsabers.

Because God allows people to do good and evil, so that they can experience life according to themselves and not so much to God's design. Mankind can only evolve and learn if they are a flawed race. If life is perfect, then they can never truly grow. That's why the tale of Adam and Eve ends as it does with the both of them being kicked out of paradise, because God gave them freewill to choose their paths and choose their destinies. And they chose to eat the forbidden fruit. Evil is the result of letting mankind have freewill.

Anakin has his vision because it is a warning of what he will do because of what he has done. He chooses to let his emotions dictate his actions, because he refuses to listen to his training and to the wisdom of Yoda, and the love of his wife.

Palpatine manipulates the people into giving him the power to rule over them, which brings the Force out of balance. He blurs the lines between good and evil, which is unacceptable and causes the Force to go out of balance. He makes good look evil and evil look good.

Lucas said that the balance is starting to slip, not that it has long since slipped. Meaning that there was a balance at one point and it is going away now, but there will come a time for the balance to be restored.

YODA: "Destroy the Sith, we must."

YODA: "Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

The outcome is certain, the person is the only thing that is uncertain.

Palpatine had Order 66, the Confederacy and Maul and Dooku before the Battle of Naboo. These people were sufficient for Palpatine's plan to be enacted. Then Obi-wan came along and screwed things up by removing Maul from the equation and Dooku needed to be promoted. But fortune smiled on Palpatine because he was Anakin Skywalker, a boy who was strong in the Force. Who could be the fabled Chosen One. The boy could be stronger than either he or Dooku, which is one reason he trained him.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

The other reason that Lucas stated was his revenge against Obi-wan for what happened with Maul. So the dark times were going to happen, it was the salt in the open wound that it was Anakin who does it. A final giant middle finger to the Jedi.

You really need it spelled out for you? They know the boy's future is clouded, but they also believe that it is possible for him to make the right choices in life. The fact that the Council changed their minds and Yoda is the lone holdout. Meaning that they've gone over it and they have thus deliberated on it. They have weighed their options and thus made their choice.

He doesn't trust Anakin, but he does trust that destroying the Sith will bring balance to the Force.

 

First of all, being mindful of the future is not the same as 'act on your visions you must'/ Secondly, yiou are being a little mischievous here. Let me remind you what I was responding to;

"That is part of their creed as Yoda states to Luke in TESB.."


...and now you're talking about another entirely different scenario. Why would you change the focus? Because what Yoda says to Luke doesn't support your argument. He tells Luke that the future is always in motion, that he cannot know the future, that he cannot know the future. It is implied in his and Obi-Wan's words that knowing the future is beyond the Jedi. Knowing the future is not a Jedi power. Being mindful of the future is distinct from knowing the future. We should all always be aware of the future..what we do now helps form that future.

A couple of things to say about this. This has little, if anything, to do with prescience. They are talking about something that has already occurred...it isn't a discussion of not having foreseen it but have not having become aware of it. Also..this seems like a 'cheat' line - by which I mean to say.....it has been placed to represent the 'shadow of the darkside' affecting their abilities but...just what sort of abilities are we expected to believe the Jedi had? This seems to imply an expectation of omniscience...which is odd. They weren't aware of Maul, or Anakin in TPM...it took them ten years to figure their omniscience is gone? It's a weak line. Why would they know of everything that's going on in the galaxy? Why is this not knowing different from their not knowing in TPM?

Whenever you act on a vision you will be acting in fear. Anakin sees his wife dying...acts in fear. Luke sees the possibility of his friends dying..acts in fear. The Jedi have a prophecy of the dark times...act in fear. If a prophecy is a foretelling of a future only then..it will come to pass, one need not act...but it seems that the visions that the Jedi have are born of fear. Luke's thoughts dwell on his friends. Anakin's on Schmi and then Padmé/ With Anakin's vision of Padmé it appears that it results from his actions (so, his fear drives what comes to be - which is a causal loop paradox but, hey, never mind...the Force allowed it so we should all rejoice..or something)

Your insistence that it is Anakin's power that determines that outcome completely alters the point the scene makes. It is not I that misunderstands. As for "The PT didn't change anything"...you have given me something of a platform to address these ideas (that OT viewers just didn't see what was there all along etc.) which I will get to in a short while, but here; do you think people left the cinema in 1983 thinking 'Well, wasn't it good that Vader was powerful enough in the Force that he could take out the Emperor in that way'?

Just stop and think about this for a moment or two. The way you've written it it might appear perfectly reasonable except. Palpatine is on the back foot to Mace throughout the battle. When he loses his lightsabre - if he let himself lose it then he would have to know that Anakin was going to show up and exactly when. And....how does he know that Anakin will go for it. He may have confidence in that but he can't know. All of this relies upon a level of prescience for Palpatine which we never see him have at any other point in the movies.

Errmm...why would I need to re-watch the movie. I know that Mace has kicked Palpatine's lightsabre away. What new thing is there for me to learn here? Where will I see Palpatine's second lightsabre.

Now...you say here that in the novel he has a second lightsavre. he does but not on his person...which you doubtless know. You say that in the originallly shot scene Palpatine uses Anakin's lightsabre...as evidence that he has two? If he had two....why would he need to use Anakin's?

What you say that is most interesting though is that; " Palpatine always had two Lightsabers, long before TCW."


I say it is most interesting because it is a similar claim to those you make about elements from the PT always having been in the OT. Unlike the OT, however, where you can simply argue that fans have misremembered or 'made it up in their own heads' we have discussions on this very board about these scenes and....nobody prior to TCW ever argued that 'fact' that Palpatine had a second lightsabre on him. Go and read the threads if you don't believe me. If he 'always had' that second lightsabre, 'well before' TCW why has nobody ever mentioned it?

This is revisionism pure and simple. It simply isn't true, and this is an argument often made about the OT...thos of us who remember...we remember very well. We aren't senile. But thank you for the opportunity to debunk these kinds of arguments.

Hang on...so, did the Force 'allow' Anakin's vision or didn't it? What is this 'allow'? And...if free will is tyhe order of the day then...why is the Force interfering in 'allowing' this 'Chosen One' to do away with the Sith (who, presumably the Force doesn't fullt allow to have free will?)? Doesn't that interfere with 'free will'? Will it allow 'free will' only so long as not too much evil has been done? How much evil is too much? Can we not say that the Force 'allowed' the Sith to take over the galaxy...especially when it 'allowed' Anakin's vision?

 

I didn't change my stance. Yoda never says a Jedi shouldn't act on the future. He says to be mindful of the future. What he also tells Anakin is to be careful when sensing the future with his emotions. He tells him that if he wants to change the future for purely selfish reasons, then that will lead him to the dark side. When he and Obi-wan warn Luke, they are warning him that he is going off half-cocked because of his fear. It is a trap and Luke is willing to walk into that trap for selfish reasons.

OBI-WAN: "It is you and your abilities that the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer."

And yes, knowing the future is a Jedi power because the Jedi, like all Force users, have the ability to see the future. Even Qui-gon says that.

QUI-GON: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait."

What they warn Luke is that it is always in motion and not everything is known. That is why they keep saying "If" regarding Anakin.

What they are talking about is that they should have foreseen the creation of the Clone Army before it happened. At full strength the Jedi can see things before they happen. They would have known that the Sith were back before they made their presence known. It was essentially like omniscience. They didn't realize their powers were diminishing because it was a gradual decline in their powers. It is only as Palpatine grows stronger that it starts to become apparent how bad things are for them. They didn't even know about the Archives being tampered with. Much less the assassination attempt on Padme.

Acting on the future isn't acting in fear unless you have fear in your heart and an attachment. The Council did not which is why they trained Anakin. The Skywalker men did have an attachment and acted out of fear. Ahsoka Tano had a vision and because she acted on it, she saved Padme's life. Meaning she did not act out of fear and did the right thing. If she hadn't acted, Aurra Sing would have killed her. Ezra Bridger was not afraid when he had his vision of meeting Senator Trayvis and the crew of the Ghost went to meet up with him because he had coded a message to meet.

How does it alter the scene? And it is not all viewers, it is some like yourself who didn't consider these things. People may not have thought that in 83, but as time goes on, they would.

I didn't say that Palpatine lost the fight on purpose. I said that despite Mace gaining an advantage in the fight, doesn't mean that the fight is over. It's like in sports when a team manages to rally back and it looks like they're winning, only for the other team to win the game because the game wasn't over. Just because Mace was winning, doesn't mean that the fight was over.

But in terms of Anakin, Palpatine knows that the boy will come back. He has nowhere else to turn. Why else do you think we hear Palpatine in Anakin's head?

PALPATINE: "You do know, don't you, that if the Jedi kill me, any chance of saving her will be lost."

It isn't prescience, it's psychology 101. Though prescience in general is Palpatine's specialty.

SIDIOUS: "Everything is going as planned."

PALPATINE: "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."

PALPATINE: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

It is up his sleeve.

No, originally Palpatine had one saber which was not on his person during the duel with the Jedi Posse. When the duel was originally filmed, Palpatine uses Anakin's Lightsaber which he takes from him since originally, Anakin never went back to the Temple to tell Mace about Palpatine. Mace learns from Obi-wan, who sees Darth Sidious talking to Grievous before Obi-wan engages Grievous. Obi-wan recognizes Palpatine, stops the attack, contacts Yoda and Mace and tells them what's what. When Mace goes to confront Palpatine, Anakin has already turned and Palpatine uses his weapon to fight Mace. The duel is similar to the final filmed version, except Palpatine never exaggerates any weakness. When Mace goes in for the kill, Anakin attacks and slices off Mace's hand.

Lucas changed the scene to the way it is now. But to compensate for the Lightsaber that falls out of the window, Lucas said that Palpatine has two Lightsabers.

Everyone has known that there were two sabers except you. We had a discussion way back in 2005 about that subject. The novelization and visual dictionary both stated as such, way before the fourth season finale of TCW was published. How can something that predates something else, be vaguely remembered?

From the shadow of a black wing, a small weapon - a hold-out, an easily concealed backup, a tiny bit of treachery expressing the core of Sith mastery - slid into a withered hand and spat a flame-colored blade of its own.

--ROTS novelization, page 424.

Iron_lord can probably post the relevant bit from the Visual Dictionary.

Anakin saw the vision because of what he had done in killing Dooku in cold blood, using the dark side. It was a warning of where he was going to go. He assumed that it was a warning to save his wife from dying. Every good and bad act that happens is up to the people to decide. The Chosen One was a person who was seen putting a stop to the darkness and restoring balance. We do not know if the Force created Anakin or the Sith.

What is important is balance to the Force and the Sith are disrupting that balance. The Force did not allow Palpatine to take over, but Anakin did. It fell to him to make it right.

 

She gave in to anger in "The Empire Strikes Back". Like Chewie. That's why no one was able to save Han from Boba Fett. That was Leia's weakest moment.

 

I think the importance of that few moments of extra time has been overstated.

 

Actually, that wouldn't count because she doesn't do anything. It has to be a choice to do something evil with the Force that leads to ruination.

 

I never said you changed your stance, I said you altered the whole context (and took on a mocking tone as part of that I might add) of the discussion. You said that precognition was a 'part of the creed' which Yoda teaches to Luke...and then referenced a line Obi-Wan says in a PT movie which referenced being mindful of the future. Being mindful of the future is not the same as seeing the future. I would argue that we would all be best being mindful of the future because our actions will impact upon it....quite naturally (cause and effect and all that).

You also seem to have invented a whole series of lessons that Yoda gives Luke here, such as " He tells him that if he wants to change the future for purely selfish reasons, then that will lead him to the dark side."...

Let's put a little context on this. The ability to see the future here (what Qui-Gon is describing about Anakin) is a limited form of precognition. This relates to Prana-Bindu from Dune and, actually, isn't as far-fetched as you might think...a similar strategy is used in many martial arts..Shaolin monks are particularly keen on it...but its also something you are taught in boxing; its about watching your opponent (eyes or body) because they will give you cues by which to foresee their next move..a slight flexing of a muscle, a flicker of an eye toward an upcoming target - only by having these senses (in the moment one might say) could Jedi deflect shots for example. This is not the same as seeing the future as in, actually foreseeing events that will unfold (except in the sense that we all make predictions about how things will come about, based upon history and an understanding of how people react...this is how, for example, something as simple as sales works; you say something which you expect to have a certain impact upon the customer...you 'predict' what their reaction will be)

As for what Yoda actually tells Luke....."Difficult to see. Always in motion the future is"....which is emphasised by Obi-Wan's words to Luke "Even Yoda cannot see their fate". Everything that is needed is there. Yoda is a very ancient and revered Jedi Master yet he cannot foresee the future, because it is "always in motion" (which is why one should be mindful of it...because one's actions will impact upon it; one's actions are part of the motion that is always a part of the future). If even Yoda cannot....how can it be argued that this is a Jedi trait?

You insist it is that they haven't foreseen this...but that isn't in any way implied in the movies; they are discussing not knowing about..not not foreseeing. This line is, in any case, one of the weakest in the movie - as you say they weren't aware that Maul was a Sith, or that he was around at all, they also had no inkling that the TF were to invade Naboo...and now, ten years later, they figure out that their powers have 'diminished'.....so that an expectation of omniscience is projected upon the pre-Palpatine era Jedi or, as you put it here "At full strength the Jedi can see things before they happen." - which makes no sense with what Yoda warns of in TESB...nor of what he similarly warns Anakin of in ROTS.

This is it? A statement of 'fact' that the Jedi weren't acting in fear? Let's look at the evidence. The Jedi council test Anakin. They see exactly the traits that will lead to his fall and they reject his training on that basis (in the here and now, on the evidence they have before them - ie rationally). Then they learn that the Sith are returned and so.....there is a fear of the dark times inherent in the prophecy so that the Jedi ignore their rational concerns and plump to follow the prophecy. It is this aspect that I have a problem with. You argue that this is 'logical'....but only in the realms of the religiously insane could rejecting your own rational reason and following a very ancient prophecy be called 'logical'; Not only because the prophecy is seemingly very vague but also because of everything the Jedi ever say in terms of 'visions' or foretelling the future...that it is fraught with danger and that the future is "always in motion". The reason it is always in motion is exactly the reason one should always be mindful of it...because it is always in motion because it is affected by the choices made.

It is, in fact, this rejection of the rational and the embracing of some notion of 'faith'...as in a 'faith in the Force'...as if this 'Force' is an active agent which acts for the good, the Force as Abrahamic deity as opposed to an unconscious, unknowable matrix which all life is enfolded in and which all life helps create. If I might extend this thought...it is the idea (that follows the deistic structure of belief) that it's 'will' can be known which is the most dangerous aspect of such ideas; the one follows the other far too naturally.

In terms of the morality of Star Wars it is this that I see most as a distinction between the PT and the OT. The OT operates on a rational basis of 'spirituality'; Luke's choices matter, as o Han's Leia's, Lando's, every rebel, every stormtrooper, every Ewok, Vader's. Their choices are what matter. The PT (and its projection onto the OT) is defined by the Force's will, at least as you tell it.

What an odd argument. You start by asking how it has altered the scene and then say that though people may not have seen it that way in '83' the simple passage of time may alter the view of it.....but it is, of course, what has followed in that time which alters, not simply the passing of time; it is what has come to be in that time which may have altered views of the scene. So, the movies that were made afterwards that alter how they are seen. Nice piece of sophistry though.

I'm sorry but....that is exactly what you said.

"Palpatine anticipated that Anakin wouldn't stay in his office and join him. And in anticipating, he prepared for an outcome that would deal with that possibility."


is what you said. You argued that Palpatine was playing Mace. Now you are changing the argument. Even in the novel Mace's weakness (his 'shatterpoint') was Anakin. It is Anakin's presence that turns the fight in Palpatine's favour. That is what we know from the movies. Mace has Palpatine defeated and Anakin makes the difference.

And now you revert to the older argument you claimed you weren't making. So, to re-iterate; No, he doesn't know what Anakin will do...you are giving him a level of prescience we do not see throughout the rest of the movies. You give some nice dialogue but....he didn't foresee Padmé's actions in TPM. He didn't foresee Maul getting himself killed. He didn't foresee Luke rejecting the dark side, or Vader turning on him. He didn't foresee Yoda and Obi-Wan surviiving Order 66, nor Luke's training. He is not omniscient. So....could you pick a position here; are you arguing that he feigned his losing to Mace because he 'knew' Anakin would come or are you not?

To keep this simple. You say that "Lucas changed the scene to the way it is now. But to compensate for the Lightsaber that falls out of the window, Lucas said that Palpatine has two Lightsabers."


whereas it is Stover who says so...

I'll ask again; in the discussions regarding Mace and Palpatine's duel prior to TCW I don't recall the idea of Palpatine having a second, hidden lightsabre up his sleeve ever being an argument made. Why would that be if "Everyone has known..."? Did everyone during those discussions forget? This is revisionism...exactly of the type I see spewed regarding what was 'always in' the OT.

More sophistry. We should praise the Force because it asllows visions......oh no, except where those visions turn out obviously bad because then that isn't the Force that 'allowed' it. Could the Force simply have 'not allowed' Anakin's vision? If not...why not?

I suppose there must be some 'logic' to it all, after all faith in the Force is a 'logical' choice.....

 

I don't think so.

Huh? I don't get it. Leia did not make an attempt to stop Chewbacca from strangling Lando. She didn't seem to mind what he was doing. That was pretty terrible to me. But more importantly, both Leia and Chewbacca's emotions regarding Han's capture failed to make them understand Lando's situation. They never understood that he had to consider the welfare of the station's citizens over Han's. And since Leia was a political leader herself, she really should have realized this.



Palpatine had a second lightsaber during his duel with Mace? Did I read that right?

 

The creed that I was referring to is that the Jedi use the Force knowledge and defense. Part of that knowledge is learning about the future and the past through Force visions. As to mindful of the future, remember the whole context of that conversation. Obi-wan senses something elsewhere and Qui-gon says that he should be focused on the moment. To which Obi-wan quotes Yoda, but Qui-gon also states that it should never be at the expense of the moment. Being mindful means being conscious or aware of something. In other words, be aware of the future. To be alert.

I didn't invent nothing. Yoda tells Luke that by leaving to rescue his friends, he puts himself in danger and is taking away their willingness to sacrifice themselves for him. That is in essence being selfish.

I do know of that aspect of martial arts combat. But this is more than just that for a Force user especially when it comes to multiple attacks via blaster bolts, or even piloting. They are brief glimpses of the future through the Force. As Obi-wan refers to, blasters are random. Where one aims and where one strikes are two different things. Likewise with something like asteroids flying through space, or knowing when to throttle back and open up full bore. This is why in the PT, we see behind the back blaster bolt deflections. They can sense the danger and respond accordingly, though even a Jedi can be overwhelmed with too much information and too much uncertainty.

Yoda cannot see if they die or live, but he does see them in danger. Anakin saw Padme dying and though he causes it, he still saw the event itself. He just didn't see how it happened. Ahsoka saw Padme being shot at, but not what happened when she was shot. That's the point. They can only see glimpses of the future, but not the whole thing. Whoever saw Anakin killing Palpatine, saw the rising darkness and saw the moment where Anakin is first found and then when he destroys the Sith. Everything else in between is like Swiss cheese. What was in motions was how and when he kills Palpatine.

The Jedi don't realize how bad things are. They're in denial due to their arrogance and the more things happen that they should have been aware of, the more it becomes apparent how bad off they are. And it is about seeing, which is why Yoda outright says, "we could not see." See. Blind. Visions. This isn't rocket science.

The Jedi Council don't ignore their concerns about Anakin since they're still there even after taking him in. They even speak of mistrust in the boy, while putting him with someone they don't trust. Putting faith in Anakin is no more insane that putting it in Luke, who was just as dangerous as his father and just as emotionally attached. Yoda doesn't even want to train Luke, but has to be coerced into it by Obi-wan. Both times they put faith on someone to do the right thing, yet, I don't see you arguing the insanity of it with Luke. They ignore his anger and his fear and his attachment and train him regardless, knowing full well that he is much like his old man.

There is also a moral lesson here in that by adhering to their own structures, they find themselves unable to deal with the problem when it rears its ugly head. In changing and adapting, they become better able to deal with Luke and that he would pass this on to a new generation of Jedi.

One can balance rational thought with religious faith. Just because you have trouble with the notion of doing so, doesn't mean that it is impossible to do. For you, it has to be one or the other and those who follow the other are morons for doing so. This is why you will never understand the hows and whys of people who are capable of doing both.

Even before Lucas made the PT, it was quite apparent that Vader only succeed because of his power. Hence Lucas didn't alter anything by showing the lightning being blocked or not blocked.

Palpatine only plays Mace on being too weak to keep up his barrage of lightning. He was capable of continuing it for a lot longer which is why his facial expression changed and he yells, "Power! Unlimited power!" He had a lot more juice in the tank. Enough to deal with Mace. Mace notes in the novelization that Palpatine's weakness is that he trusts Anakin, but before he is attacked, he realizes at the last second that he misread the situation. That he forgot to look for Anakin's shatterpoint right before he goes out the window.

Palpatine trusted Anakin to be there when the time came. He put faith in the boy that his greed and fear would lead him back to him. He anticipates that Anakin will come to him, once he leaves for the Temple. And he anticipates that if Anakin won't come, or won't side with him, that he can still avoid defeat.

Palpatine can see a lot more and push things to go a certain way. No, he isn't completely omniscient, but he is far more in tune with the future than the Jedi are at the moment. And he has a good idea of people's psychological makeup which he is able to exploit as he does.

It is up his sleeve.

Let's try this again.

1. Lucas is the one who said that Palpatine has two Lightsabers. He told this to the people who write stuff like the novelization and the visual dictionary, who wanted to know how Palpatine can have a Lightsaber after losing his earlier one.

2. Stover confirmed it in the novelization that Palpatine had a second Lightsaber on hand. The visual dictionary states it as well.

3. My saying that Palpatine had it on him at the time of the duel is my invention, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for it to be that way as a hypothetical.

The Force shows what it shows and it is up to the people to decide how best to deal with what they see. Each vision has a purpose and a meaning and the difficulty is only in trying to discern what that meaning is. Anakin needed to see Padme's death because it was a warning. He was going down a path that would lead to the end of his marriage. It fell to Anakin to figure out the meaning of that message and he came to the wrong conclusion. Not seeing the vision wouldn't change that he was on the verge of turning to the dark side and at some point, he and Padme would become opposed and he would turn on her much like he does. The warning here is like the warning Luke has in the tree cave.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

His failure is that he is lead by his emotions, rather than logical thought.

 

darth-sinister yo man only one kenobi is schooling you! I wish I had the patience to go back and forth with your ridiculous arguments like this.

 

The seeing of the future is most definitely not a part of the creed that Yoda teaches to Luke. Between Yoda and Obi-Wan it is made clear that seeing the future is not something the Jedi rely upon.

Let me remind you of the discussion they have, because everything is there, everything the Jedi consider about visions ofthe future is expressed there.

Yoda tells Luke that "difficult to see, always in motion the future is"
Obi-Wan then emphases what Yoda is saying; "Even Yoda cannot see their fate"

In the context of the OT this is very significant. Obi-Wan is the wise old teacher from ANH...but Yoda is wiser yet. Yoda it is that trained Obi-Wan. He is, in terms of Kasdan's writing, and in terms of what Lucas tells us, a Zen Master. He is the fount of knowledge of the Jedi ways. He is the very wisest of the Jedi - hence Obi-Wan emphasising that even Yoda cannot see their fate.

The discussion here is about the Jedi not having the power to see the future. Let me be blunt. These Jedi, the Jedi we hear having this discussion, would never put their faith in a prophecy. These Jedi absolutely reject the notion of prophecy.

I do remember the discussion. Obi-Wan doesn't say that he is sensing something from the future, he says it is of something "elsewhere". Qui-Gon then tells Obi-Wan not to dwell on his anxieties. It is that which Obi-Wan then responds to with "But Master Yoda told me to be mindful of the future". Mindful of. Let me try and put that in perspective. Obi-Wan senses something that Qui-Gon does not. It is something "elsewhere" (not of the future, not another time)...Obi-Wan is concerned that this feeling he has may become important - hence mindful of the future.

Qui-Gon dismisses Obi-Wan's sense here but later acknowledges it (though obliquely). When they are speaking to Amaidala Qui-Gon states that he senses something else behind all of this..... you know, exactly what he dismissed from Obi-Wan earlier. My instinct on these scenes was always that Obi-Wan had picked up quite early that that something else was behind the mission...would become important...an aspect of the mission that Qui-Gon only becomes aware of later. Of course in the St. Qui-Gon reading of the 'saga' this cannot be so, Qui-Gon cannot be 'outdone' by a mere padawan...

What's really important to understand though is that Obi-Wan at no point refers to his sense as being of the future - it isn't a 'vision' or a premonition, it is a sense of something "elsewhere" that he feels may become important - hence being mindful of the future.

I think it is the "in essence" which I would debate. You claimed (as a 'fact' of the discussion) that is what Yoda is telling him... I think there's a great deal more he is telling him than simply 'acting in selfishness on your vision is bad'. In fact he tells him that a Jedi cannot rely upon visions, that they cannot know the future. He exhorts him also to take account of why his friends have been tortured (ie to trap him) and whether his walking into that trap would be the best way to serve what they fight for and believe in.

To put that into perspective, what you are actually claiming the lesson is, is that it would be ok for him to act on his vision if it wasn't for selfish reasons - that simply isn't the case - and so the lesson you claim is being given here is misleading.

I've left a little of my initial response here. I am aware it is not exactly the same (hence my use of the term "similar"). The Jedi can perceive more than a Shaolin monk or a boxer. It is that it is reacting 'in the moment' to intention. The real issue here is that you conflate this very limited state of precognition with the ability to prophecise a longer term future.

And...as for blasters being "random"...I don't think you understand how a blater works at all. Such a weapon as you describe here would be almost useless. You just point and hope it hits the target...hahahaha. No, no, no.

You keep mixing up concepts here..as and when any such concept of 'prophecy' suits purpose. It would perhaps help if you could define what exactly you think a prophecy is...

Let me explain what I mean. You say here, in this part of the ongoing discussion, that any prophecy is incomplete - ie that only certain events are foreseen. Okay, so what we know of the prophecy is that, according to Lucas, it is fulfilled in ROTJ. In other words...what was foreseen in the prophecy came to be in ROTJ. So that what little was foreseen included (as you point out) the rise of the dark-times and Anakin destroying the Sith.

To put that another way. The prophecy was fulfilled with the actions of Anakin in ROTJ - that was what was foreseen. It follows then that everything else that lead up to that point was part of what was eventually to come to be but which wasn't part of what was foreseen. The other events that lead up to that moment were the holes in the "Swiss cheese" that could not be seen by the one whose vision birthed the prophecy. So that Anakin stopping Mace from destroying Palpatine, Anakin turning to the darkside and helping the Empire to its dominance over the galaxy are all aspects of what will come to be, but those aspects of what will come to be are unseen in the original vision.

We have an example of this already. We have Anakin's vision of Padmé dying in childbirth. But what he foresees came about because he acted in fear on those visions. By acting on those visions he brought about what he had prophecised. He had no idea what would lead to that outcome...and it was his acting upon it that brought it about.

So...here we have an old prophecy (a vision) which is built around the idea of the rise of the Sith...clearly an apocalyptic vision - of the dark-times, of a powerful Sith Lord. The Jedi, acting in the here and now, perceive the danger in training Anakin (very wisely, as Lucas tells us exactly what they see the danger as being is what leads to Anakin's fall) and they only accept acting on the vision because it appears the Sith have re-appeared...

This is an act made in fear, in anxiety. They act on the vision because they perceive a threat (an apocalyptic 'dark times') that is foreseen in the vision. This is no different to what Anakin does regarding his vision. Everything that comes to be does so because they act on the prophecy. Everything. That is the prophecy.

Let me emphasise that. There is no context for believing, for example, that Anakin's vision was of some other time that Padmé would die in childbirth (as if this were to be a repeated danger she will face), in the same way there is no context (within a prophecised event, a foreseen event) that the events we see as bringing about the prophecy (ie what occurred in ROTJ) are to be conflated with some other event (ie the events of ROTS). The events that brought about Padmé's death, the focus of Anakin's vision, were brought about by Anakin acting on his visions. The event that brought about the destruction of the Sith, following the dark times foreseen, were brought about by the Jedi acting on the visions encapsulated in an ancient prophecy.

Really? You think "Blind" is a referece to visions...and that understanding such is not rocket science. That kind of inferential leap isn't any kind of science at all, it is an example of confirmation bias. Let us put this idea to the test. I guide a person into a room, shut the door and turn out the light. Blind they are. But, that doesn't mean they have lost some concept of precognition - except in the limited sense that as they walk forward they will not know what they will walk into. Had they said something like 'if foresee this we could not...' you may have a point; but that isn't what they discuss. They discuss not knowing, not the inability to foresee.

Let me re-iterate how weak the line is. The line is used clearly to introduce the idea that the Jedi's powers are diminished; what makes it weak is that it references a power, or an expectation of power that a) we have no reason from the movies to expect and b) we have no reason from the movies to think the Jedi expect of themselves. They are unaware that the Sith have returned in TPM, they have no idea that the TF are to invade Naboo...and they have no concern that they were unaware of these things. In fact Yoda even refers to the darkside being difficult to see. Also, at no point in the OT is there an expectation from the Jedi of omniscient knowing.

Yes yes, listen to darth-sinister you should. The Jedi, despite their mistrust in the person of Anakin (ie as he actually is, in the here and now...in a rational sense) still put faith in him because of the prophecy. Their faith is not in Anakin but in the prophecy, as they repeat over and over. And it is their rational concerns, the actual here and now which is shown to be what they ought to have been working with. Their faith in the prophecy at the expense of their rational knowledge and wisdom turns round and bites them on the arse.

That is a distinction between their faith in Luke, it is in the person (and the OT precedes the PT. Take away any expectation back-projected from the PT and the difference becomes clearer)

First of all that seems to be a structure of management and organisation that is in question, so I'm not sure how it is a moral lesson. Secondly...it is by following the 'rogue' Jedi Qui-Gon's insistence, against their own better judgement (and it is a better judgement) that they follow the prophecy and train Anakin. It is that they moved away from their own rationality and followed "premonitions", "visions" and "prophecy" that leads to the situation we have at the end of ROTS, that leads to the "darktimes". They dismiss their own rational concerns at every turn (as Lucas has pointed out regarding their insight into Anakin's state of mind, and as you emphasise here by pointing out that they 8ignore their concerns with respect instead for faith the prophecy)

Another way of putting this is that, in following Qui-Gon's insistence they followed a "charismatic" leader, turned to doctrine (in terms of the written form, the prophecy) and ignored their own relationship with the real world. That, it seems to me, is a rejection of the Jedi ways that had until then prevailed. The Jedi of the OT are not following a new Jedi way..it is the following of the prophecy that seems to be the departure from Jedi teachings.

One can indeed balance rational thought and faith. The writers of the OT managed to do exactly that. Two of my favourite books are written by a person of faith (The Sparrow and Children of God), with clear references to her faith. I am perfectly aware that faith and rationality can be balanced. The idea that a vision seen many years before of an apocalyptic event is to be acted upon, however, in no way can be seen as a balance between faith and reason. The idea that some great over-arching, interventionist deity will come along and make everything better....in no way seems to be balancing faith and reason. Nor is the idea that there can be a person who is inherently good (or the opposite) in any way associated in my mind with rationality.

There are notions within the PT that are contradictory to notions in the OT...that you do not recognise.

Just out of interest...because you have used some language that makes me wonder (Like "faith is always welcome" and this argument here - that faith can be balanced with rationality)...what is, really, your position on faith?

Really? You think that's what people took from the ending of ROTJ? I call this what it is. Revisionism.

And....so it goes on. You keep referencing back to the same argument that you claim you aren't making. Here you put it in the form

"Palpatine trusted Anakin to be there when the time came. He put faith in the boy that his greed and fear would lead him back to him. He anticipates that Anakin will come to him, once he leaves for the Temple."


So...is he feigning his weakness all the way through his fight with Mace or not? You say you aren't arguing this and yet in every denial return to arguing it to be the case....

Revisionism. Much as you like the 'argument' that everybody except me "always" knew this....the discussions about whether Mace really defeated Palpatine on these very boards seem, remarkably, to bear no evidence of this imagined knowledge that "everyone" had.

 

The Jedi use the Force for knowledge, of which comes visions of the future and the past. That is knowledge as much as anything else. And what Yoda says is not rejecting the notion of prophecy, but a reminder that things change which was shown with Anakin becoming evil which was not part of the prophecy. But Yoda training Luke was foretold to him and proven to be correct.

Luke's friends were suffering which was foresee and did come true. They went to Cloud City, which he saw. He saw them in pain and suffering, which happened. What was not clear was what would happen to them. That my friend is prophecy. Anakin being foreseen as existing and killing Palpatine to bring balance. What was not seen was his turning evil and doing terrible things along the way.

I agree that he was sensing Palpatine. But at which point was he sensing his hand is difficult to determine. I never said that he referred to it as a premonition, just that he quoted Yoda who speaking of the future.

Except that the Jedi can know the future, they just have to proceed with caution about what will happen. What I said and what you said are both valid points. Furthered by what has been shown in the PT and in the animated series. i.e., Ahsoka was right to act on her visions since it saved Padme's life whereas doing nothing would kill her. How you proceed is as important as whether or not you should or shouldn't.

Tell that to Greedo and the Stormtroopers.

Here's a newsflash for you, but not every person and situation is exactly the same. Everything and everyone is different. These differences play a part in what occurs. See the case of Ezra and Ahsoka, who both had a vision but was based on different actions taken and not taken. Ezra's vision came true because he took part in the mission to rescue Trayvis, while Ahsoka's was based on trying to save Padme's life. Two different visions. Glimpses of the future seen, but based on what they will or will not do. Ezra didn't see the treachery that would follow, while Ahsoka didn't see that she would save Padme who would only be wounded. If the crew of the Ghost had not gone on that mission, then they wouldn't know that Trayvis was an Imperial agent. But if Ahsoka had chosen not to act, then Padme would be dead instead of wounded. This extends to the films. If Anakin had not acted, then Padme would live. But if the Jedi Council had not acted in taking Anakin in, then Palpatine would still take over and the Force would never be brought into balance.

The Jedi Council did not act in fear, but made a calculated and logical decision. Just as Ahsoka did.

Knowledge and foreknowledge go hand-in-hand here. The Jedi aren't concerned in TPM, because they don't realize how bad things are and how bad they will become yet. Ten years later, they get a wake-up call. A lot has changed in ten years which is what leads to that conclusion from Yoda and Mace. In TPM, they just see it as a minor situation that they had no knowledge of and don't think anything of it. Now, in AOTC, things have gone to **** and they're becoming more and more aware of their limitations.

Faith in a person or a prophecy, either way, they still put faith in something greater than themselves. They put faith in someone or something, knowing how dangerous that would be because of how emotionally compromised they are. There is nothing wrong with putting faith in a higher power, no matter how much you don't believe in it.

Except Qui-gon was right in the boy and that there was more to the Force that they didn't know about and couldn't understand. And as such, when they later put their faith in Luke via a prophecy of Yoda training another Skywalker, this turns out to be the right thing. Their Jedi teachings are fine, but flawed. They learn and grow because there is more to know. The Jedi way is not the only way. At least as it was. It needed to change and evolve, which the Jedi were unwilling to do until forced to do so. The Force is greater than the Jedi and it is a vast and unknowable power that can only be understood the more they attempt to learn from it.

The point is that there isn't a contradiction, but rather different situations to different characters. There are layers to what is going on with the smaller scale stuff, which is Luke vs Vader and the larger which is the Force and destiny.

Which is that you can have both. You can put faith in a medical treatment to save someone, but also put faith in a divine figure if you believe that one exists and can make a difference. Likewise, a person can look for spiritual guidance for what to go in their life, while also making choices in the here and now. If you believe that things were meant to happen for a reason, then chances are, they were. Whether for good or ill. You can try to make things happen and maybe you were meant to, or maybe you weren't. You're not going to see me pray to a deity, unless it is lip service in a group setting. But that doesn't stop me from believing that there is something out there. Faith is welcome because it will make people feel better, whether you believe in it or not.

So then, Vader standing up to Palpatine's power when Luke didn't is the power of love then? Not the Force being used to keep him upright. You don't need the PT for that.

The problem you're having is that you're not paying attention. Let me break it down for you.

1. Anakin leaves. Palpatine anticipates that Anakin will come back to him, either alone or with the Jedi.

2. He prepares for a confrontation because he anticipates that Mace will come for him now that the truth is out.

3. Palpatine has different contingency plans set up depending on what Anakin does. In one scenario, Anakin is present the whole time and Palpatine will conduct him with the boy there. This is similar to the version that was filmed in 2003. A different scenario would be that Anakin arrives late to the fight and he would conduct himself accordingly. A third scenario would be that Anakin either shows up not at all.

4. In each scenario, he is careful to make sure that Mace won't kill him. Whether he manipulates Anakin into defending him, or he has to turn around and use his spare saber to avoid dying. When Mace knocks him down, Palpatine senses Anakin coming and chooses to feign weakness. If Anakin didn't come or didn't fall for it, then Palpatine would switch to a new plan that was set up in advance.

Read what I posted.

 

It's interesting that most of this debate has centred on whether ir not the morality of the Jedi order is correct.

I think morality boils down to a few things in Star Wars:

Life is complicated
Nobody is perfect
You have to set your own moral compass, but be open to change based on your experience
Try to be critical of entrenched moralities, and wary of their influence
It's good to be in touch with your emotions, but don't be a slave to them
Don't give up your freedom for apparent safety

That's just my interpretation though...