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Full Series The Mortis Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by I know, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Lucas never said that they are the same thing. He's talking about the duality of opposites, which is true for God and the devil, yin and yang, the good and the bad, light and dark, right and wrong. It's an everlasting contrast that exists virtually everywhere.
     
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  2. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 27, 2019
    But he seems to use them interchangeably when it comes to the two sides of the Force. The Mortis trilogy seems to present the Force in terms of yin and yang. You need both light and dark, too much dark or too much light is a bad thing, and the desirable state is balance between the two. This isn't what I get in the movies. There the dark side is seen as evil. The Jedi don't seem to want balance between light and dark, but they seem to see the dark side as the enemy. It's debatable when and how Anakin brought balance to the Force, but I think the most obvious place is when he killed Palpatine, the last of the Sith. Under the Mortis conception of the Force - how is that bringing balance to the Force if it rid the galaxy of dark side Force users? If anything didn't Palpatine unintentionally bring balance to the Force by making it so there were two Jedi and two Sith? Maybe this is being too literal (i.e. balance = the number of Force users on either side), but I don't know what bringing balance to the Force means.
     
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Evil comes from giving into the dark side, it's not the dark side itself. The dark side is anger, fear, greed, hate, selfishness, etc... By giving into the dark side, you affect the balance (your inner balance and the balance of those around you). In order to tell good from evil, right from wrong, both sides need to exist. But the existence of the dark side doesn't mean you need to give into it or act upon it. It means you need to be weary and refuse to fall into it. You can't destroy anger, or fear, or hate, but you can fight back and not give into it. By doing so you achieve balance.

    No, they don't. They see the dark side as a path to evil (which it is), therefore they don't give into it, thus keeping themselves and their actions in balance.

    He brought balance by destroying the Sith, both his Sith persona (Vader) and Sidious. Because the Sith were the cause of imbalance. Through their actions, they made the dark side grow and take over the light side.

    That's not the Mortis conception of the Force. Balance is what I explained above.

    It's not the number of Force users. Not only the Jedi and the Sith aren't the only Force users, but all living beings are connected to the Force and thus are users of it on some level.
     
  4. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 27, 2019
    Interesting post. Meditate on this, I will. :yoda:
     
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  5. Blorg

    Blorg Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 21, 2021
    My question about Mortis has always been this: what does it mean? George Lucas reportedly was heavily involved in creating the episodes, so they must mean something ... but what?

    Here is my theory: the Mortis episodes provide an answer to the following question: If the Force ultimately planned the events of Episodes I-VI as a way to create balance, why did that plan involve so much suffering, both for the Skywalker family and the Galaxy as a whole? Why not just create the Chosen One, have him/her overthrow Sidious in a quick, bloodless coup, and leave it at that? Why have Anakin fall to the dark side and kill tons of Jedi? Why allow an entire planet to be blown up?

    I think the answer is basically that the events of Episodes III-VI were not the Force's original plan. The Force's original plan was to have Anakin go to Mortis and bring balance to the Son/Daughter; in doing that, Anakin would then use his God-like powers to bring balance to the Force without too much more suffering. But the Force also allows for free will, and it gave Anakin the choice of whether to accept that plan or not. He decided not to. That is what led to all the suffering in Episodes III-VI. But, in the end, even after Anakin made that choice, the Force figured out another way to bring balance--basically, the events we saw in Return of the Jedi.

    In my mind this implies something about how the Force and evil interact in Star Wars more broadly. The Force itself is not evil; it's either good or neutral. And if it were to fully plan out every action in the universe, there would be a lot less evil and suffering. But instead it allows for free will, and that is what allows evil to exist.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    George was heavily involved in creating most of the episodes.

    The events of the movies aren't "planned" to begin with. What's "planned" is each one's destiny. But one's destiny isn't always fullfilled. If one works (knowingly or not) against the will of the Force, he deviates and ceases to follow and fullfill their own destiny. Anakin's fall had nothing to do with his destiny. It had to do with him feeding his attachment and greed. He chose to give into the dark side instead of resisting it.

    Anakin was faced with his own destiny on Mortis. Most of the events on Mortis mirror the events of the the movies, that's the purpose of the story arc (and the embodiments of the Force itself serve to illustrate how it works). When balance was disrupted on Mortis, Anakin was able to restore it.
     
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  7. silentfault

    silentfault Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 5, 2021
  8. Meeko Ghintee

    Meeko Ghintee Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2015
    That would be an interesting way of interpreting things and would make sense. Anakin's out of control love for his wife allowed evil to prosper but Luke's love for the idea of his father ended it. But the problem is that Mortis never seems to show a redeeming side to the brother. As a manifestation of the Dark side, he a red-eyed cackling villain cloaked in evil spiky stuff. And there is never an explicit defense of the "good" part of the dark side in the series. All dark siders are portrayed as evil. Sometimes they are portrayed as sympathetic such as Anakin or Maul, but only in ways that makes you pity the characters, not agree with their deeds or philosophy. Despite Lucas saying that the order had fallen by the time of the prequels, Obi-Wan and Yoda always seemed to be presented as unambiguous teachers of truth. The Jedi told Anakin not to forge connections and the consequences of him not following their orders led to the Sith ruling the galaxy. Yoda told Luke not to go to Bespin and Luke got his hand cut off. There never was a scene in Return of the Jedi where Luke got a "hey looks like I was right and you were wrong about Vader" moment with Yoda. That could have been an interesting area to explore in the sequel trilogy.
     
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He never said that.

    In regards to the Son, even though he's a representation of the dark side, he's not the dark side itself. He's his own being, and giving into the dark side is a choice. And having free will, he had the choice of rejecting the dark side.

    And the Jedi don't forbid connections, they forbid attachments. They don't condemn love, they promote it. They condemn passion (selfish), which is the opposite of compassion (selfless).

    It wasn't Anakin's love for Padmé that led him to the dark side, it was his attachment, which was consolidated when he broke his Jedi vows and married her. He chose to act selfishly. Likewise, Luke almost fell due to his attachment for his friends, specially Leia.
     
  10. Meeko Ghintee

    Meeko Ghintee Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2015
    Lucas has said multiple times that the war forced the Jedi Order into a position they shouldn’t be. It’s what Ahsoka’s “Wrong Jedi” arc was all about. And I guess you could distinguish between connection and attachment but it will always seems kinda inhuman and weird to condemn the idea of attachment in its entirety. Yoda and Obi Wan seemed to condemn Luke saving Vader as much as they did Luke trying to save his friends on Bespin. As for the nature of the Son, that’s part of my question. The Mortis beings at the very least seem to be allegories for different parts of the force from a storytelling point of view (if not in universe actual manifestations of it).
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, forced. He never condemned the Jedi for it nor did he ever say that the Jedi Order had fallen. The Jedi of all people aren't happy that there is a war.

    No, it isn't. That arc is a statement on the Republic and the Jedi's powerlessness in contrast with the military.

    Attachment is the inability to let go, and a Jedi needs to be able to let go, to be selfless. That's what being a Jedi is all about.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan never condemned Luke for saving Vader. If anything, Obi-Wan condemned Luke's refusal to accept the possibility that he might have to kill Vader.

    "A Jedi can’t kill for the sake of killing. The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him." ― George Lucas

    Luke's problem in TESB is not the desire to save his friends in and on itself, but to do so out of fear and at the expense of his training. Attachment is driven by fear and Luke was acting on that fear.

    The Mortis beings don't cease to be beings. They "embody" aspects of the Force, but they are still individuals, not the Force itself. It's explained in the episodes.

    "Some call us Force-wielders."

    "We can take many forms. The shapes we embody are merely a reflection of the life Force around us."

    "My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other, therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."

    The Son (like the Daughter and the Father) is a "Force-wielder", a being that "can manipulate the Force like no other", only devoted to the dark side. Like the Daughter was devoted to the light side. But they are not the dark side and the light side.
     
  12. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 7

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    Oct 3, 2016
    A metaphorical arc, and of course Anakin, Asohka and Obi-Wan misread the signs right in front of them.
     
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  13. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    The Mortis gods each were supposed to represent something about the Force. The brother was the embodiment of the dark side of the Force , the Daughter was the personification of the light side of the Force . While The Father represented the center between the two, balance - which was a very similar position taken up by the Bendu creature on Rebels.

    Their range was was broad and outside of Mortis, (Son & Daughter) are worshiped on Dathomir and the family mural was found on the Lothal temple.
     
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  14. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 27, 2019
    Was that in TCW? I don't remember that.
     
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It's not in TCW, no. It must be Disney related.
     
  16. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Its found in the new canon literature.
     
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  17. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    Serms like we will slowly get more of the Mortis Gods. They only vanished from the galaxy 2000 years before the clone wars. They are kown trouthout the galaxy, forgotten too.
     
  18. Meeko Ghintee

    Meeko Ghintee Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2015
    I feel this Filoni quote is relevant:
    “In the Phantom Menace, you're watching these two Jedi in their prime fight this evil villain, Maul couldn't be more obviously the villain. He's designed to look evil, and he is evil, and he expresses that from his face, all the way out to the type of lightsaber he fights with. What's at stake is really how Anakin is going to turn out. Because Qui-Gon is different than the rest of the Jedi, and you get that in the movie. Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows he's the father that Anakin needs, because Qui-Gon hasn't given up on the fact that the Jedi are supposed to actually care, and love, and that that's not a bad thing. The rest of the Jedi are so detached, and they've become so political, that they've really lost their way. Yoda starts to see that in the second film, but Qui-Gon is ahead of them all and that's why he's not part of the council.
    So he's fighting for Anakin, and that's why it's the Duel of the Fates. It's the fate of this child. And depending on how this fight goes, his life is going to be dramatically different. So Qui-Gon loses, of course, so the father figure is gone]. Because he knew what it meant to take this kid away from his mother when he had an attachment, and he's left with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trains Anakin, at first, out of a promise he makes to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him. He's a brother to Anakin, eventually, but he's not a father figure. That's a failing for Anakin. He doesn't have the family that he needs. He loses his mother in the next.film-He fails the promise to his mother, 'I will come back and save you.' So he's left completely vulnerable, and Star Wars is ultimately about family."
    As for the Son, yes, perhaps within universe he is a being who can choose light or dark but obviously, outside of the universe as a construction of the episodes’ authors is he not supposed to be a metaphor? Isn’t the entire point of the arc to be a metaphor? If so, are the storytellers intending the Father as the balancing force to be the mouthpiece for the moral of the story they are trying to tell? Cause that’s the whole issue for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
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  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I don't see the relevancy. He's arguing from the false premise that the Jedi don't care or love, as if that's somehow a point of contention between Qui-Gon and the other Jedi, when the movies (and this series) and Lucas himself don't corroborate that. Anakin explains it quite plainly: the Jedi are trained and encouraged to love, compassionately. They are trained to not form attachments, not to be "detached". All Jedi, including Qui-Gon, follow those tenets and philosophy. It's what makes them Jedi.

    A methaphor? Partially, not completely though. Is the light side and dark side in the Star Wars saga a metaphor for good and evil? Partially, but not completely.

    You can see the Father as the moral cornerstone for this arc, yes. All he says, the advice and guidance he gives are valid and true.
     
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  20. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    And "Twin Suns" can be interpreted as Maul and Kenobi. Maul and Kenobi believed that Luke was the key to destroying the Sith, that Luke was the chosen one. But the whole Chosen One thing is strange to say the least, since Lucas also wanted to make Leia the chosen one for his ST, while he was publicly adamant about Anakin being the Chosen One. He built the PT ad TCW around Anakin being the Chosen One, although in universe their is speculation and doubt from various characters and how things play out. Disney's ST is basically their is a new chosen one every so often to restore balance.
     
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Anakin is the Chosen One. Not only has Lucas confirmed it multiple times, but the Jedi prophecy automatically excludes someone like Luke or Leia since they were not conceived by the midi-chlorians. Obi-Wan knows that, so why Disney decided to pretend that Obi-Wan of all people believes Luke to be the Chosen One is beyond me.

    And Lucas didn't refer to Leia as being the Chosen One of Jedi prophecy, but as being the "chosen one" in the context of being elected by the people to restore the Republic and peace in the galaxy.
     
  22. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Lucas said a lot of things before 2011, but his ST would've had Leia as being the "Chosen One".

    “By the end of the trilogy Luke would’ve rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One".

    So the whole Mortis arc was at the end very dubious, even for Disney's ST. Where the dyad storyline supplanted everything.
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I have that book. He would have Leia as the chosen one in the sense of being the one chosen by the people to be their leader, Chancellor of the Republic, the one who restored it back to what it was and brought peace. The context is pretty clear. In the very same book he reiterates what he always said and established in the movies: that Anakin is the Chosen One of Jedi prophecy, the one conceived by the midi-chlorians, who destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force.

    There's nothing dubious about the Mortis arc in that regard, or in Lucas's past and current statements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
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  24. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I have the book too, he would've made Leia the Chosen One in Lucas's new view point he was shaping of what it meant. The Sith never were even destroyed in Lucas's ST, since Darth Maul and Darth Talon carried forward and the eventual corruption of the young new Skywalker character. Its that clear cut. So no balance and no destruction of the Sith. Moreover if the EU still existed during Lucas' ST , in some shape or form so did Dark Empire Trilogy.

    It would've made the Mortis arc irrelevant and even his PT with regards to Anakin. The ST did it away as did Dark Empire which was still canon.

    In the recent book "Secrets of the Dark Side" Sidious mocks the Chosen One myth and for the Jedi for believing it. And he also said Vader's betrayal, and Anakin's rebirth and quick demise was all for nothing and a pathetic display, for Vader was dead and the Sith would return cause they never were even destroyed,lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
  25. Meeko Ghintee

    Meeko Ghintee Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2015
    Quotes from the show runner of the show we are discussing who worked closely with and was mentored by Lucas has no relevancy? Agree to disagree I guess