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PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mikeximus, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Arguably the biggest mystery of the Prequels is the one that surrounded Jedi Master Sifo Dyas. The Cloners on Kamino informed Obi Wan Kenobi that it was Jedi Master Sifo Dyas that ordered the Clones for the Republic. However, as we find out later on in Attack Of The Clones, Sifo Dyas died over 10 years ago. This made it seemimpossible for Sifo Dyas to be the one that ordered the Clones.

    I have had small discussions with Iron_lord a couple times across a few threads on this topic. Iron pointed me to the 6th season of The Clone Wars which addressed this very issue.
    So taking Iron_lord up on their advice, I finally sat down and watched the episode, not once, not twice, but five times. The episode, for me at least, was a tough one to follow. I actually had to sit down and take notes as I watched the episode as there is a lot of confusion over the time line of events that notes helped flesh out. What proceeds are my findings based on the movie and novelization for Attack Of The Clones as well from The Clone Wars episode “The Lost One”. All Canon material.

    In this first part I will try to be as factual as I can be without injecting my opinion or interpretation into what I write. I will give my opinions later, and they will be noted as such.

    Before the blockade of Naboo (how long before is not stated), Sifo-Dyas was removed from the Jedi Council as some of his ideas were deemed extreme. Sifo-Dyas warned the Jedi Council that he foresaw great conflict and that the Republic would need to raise an army to protect itself (TCW).

    Before or simultaneously with the beginning of the events of TPM, Supreme Chancellor Valorum sent Sifo-Dyas on a mission to Oba Diah to negotiate a treaty with an underworld organization called the Pyke Syndicate. The mission was secret and kept hidden from even the Jedi Council so as to not legitimize the Pyke Syndicate’s illegal operations (TCW).

    Valorum also sent his personal aide, Silman, with Sifo-Dyas to Oba Diah. However, once Sifo-Dyas and Silman arrived on Oba Diah the negotiations with the Pyke Syndicate were postponed as Sifo Dyas was then ordered, by the Jedi Council, to Felucia, where Sifo-Dyas was to help subdue a flare up there.

    As Sifo-Dyas and Silman were leaving Oba Diah to go to Felucia, the Pyke Syndicate shot down their ship. The Pyke’s were paid to kill Sifo-Dyas by Tyranus. The ship crash landed on one of the moons of Oba Diah. The Pyke’s searched the wreckage and found Sifo-Dyas dead, but, Silman was still alive. The Pyke’s than gave Tyranus the body of Sifo-Dyas, but, they did not tell Tyranus about Silman, and imprisoned Silman and kept him alive as an insurance policy in case they were ever double crossed by Tyranus or someone came looking for Sifo-Dyas.

    Tyranus delivered the body of Sifo-Dyas to the Felucians, and a story was concocted that he was killed during the ongoing fighting on Felucia. His body was burned and no other details were given of his death.

    Again it is important to understand that this all took place under Valorum’s Administration, so it happened prior to the events of TPM or at the very least simultaneously with the beginning of TPM.

    We now enter the events of AOTC. After Obi Wan tracks Jango Fett to Kamino. We find out that the Cloners believe Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army for the Republic. Obi Wan is not sure of the exact timing of the death of Sifo-Dyas, as he tells the Cloners that Sifo-Dyas died “almost” ten years ago, but, later tells the council the clones were ordered almost 10 years ago and he was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed before that. Obi Wan also finds out that a man named Tyranus recruited Jango Fett to be the template for the Clones. At the end of Attack of the Clones we find out that Count Dooku is really a Sith Lord, and that his name is Darth Tyranus. However, the Jedi are still not aware that he is Tyranus at this point.

    With the Clone wars well underway, the Jedi find the lost ship of Sifo-Dyas, which causes them to open an investigation into his death . Darth Sidious contacts Darth Tyranus and demands to know why the Jedi are looking for info on Sifo-Dyas, and tells Tyranus to retrace his steps and take care of any loose ends.

    The Jedi track various clues which leads Obi Wan and Anakin to the Pyke Syndicate on Oba Diah. There the Pyke’s tell Obi Wan and Anakin of their dealings with Tyranus, and use their insurance policy (Silman) as a bargaining chip to avoid Jedi retaliation for their (the Pyke’s) involvement in the killing of Sifo-Dyas. The Pyke’s lead Obi Wan and Anakin to Silman, where they are able to talk to him:

    Obi Wan: Hello?
    Silman: Who who's there?
    Obi Wan; We are Jedi sent to find you.
    Silman: Jedi? To find me? Why me? I was betrayed, forgotten long ago.
    Obi Wan; No one knew you were alive.
    Silman: Quick.Maybe you have some food. Have you have you any food?
    Anakin: Of course.
    Silman: Oh, oh! Oh, oh, oh! Oh! Thank you, my friend. A supply bar! Mmm, mmm. Delicious.
    You see, I was so frightened I would have nothing to serve.
    Oh, oh, oh! Oh, oh!
    Anakin:Serve?
    Silman: My my babies, they get so angry when I have nothing to serve.
    Anakin: We might have a problem here.

    Anakin: I think you've been cooped up in here too long, old man.
    Obi Wan: We've come to take you home.
    Silman: Home? No, no, this is my home. I can't leave my friends.
    Obi Wan: You were traveling with Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. Tell us what happened to him.
    Silman: [cackles] Sifo-Dyas? He died.Died, died, died, died. Tricked, we were. The Pykes are not to be trusted. Oh, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But the Pykes were not the ones. No, no, the Pykes were not the reason.
    Anakin: Who was responsible?
    Silman: Someone powerful, someone who who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas.
    Obi Wan:Why?
    Silman: All is deception. [chuckles] Can't you see? Because because

    It is at this point that Darth Tyranus shows up and Force Chokes Silman to death before he can finish his sentence. Tyranus, Obi Wan, and Anakin engage in a lightsaber duel, where the leader of the Pyke Syndicate calls Dooku by his Sith name of Tyranus, reveling for the first time to the Jedi that Dooku is Tyranus, and that Dooku has been involved in the creation of the Clone Army from the beginning….

    Opinions….

    My first thought to all of this is that I think it is fairly obvious now that Sifo-Dyas was killed so that Dooku could pretend to be him, as Silman was alluding to that someone powerful wanted to be Sifo-Dyas. They just couldn’t get to the why.

    However, one thing that is really a big question mark is the timing of when Dooku turns to the Dark Side and becomes Tyranus. With this new canon, it seems Dooku was already going around performing his Sith duties as Tyranus before the events of TPM came to a completion. This suggests that Maul and Tyranus existed at the same time as apprentices to Sidious. If the events surrounding Sifo-Dyas’s death took place under Valorum’s admin, then that means Maul was still in the picture…

    Thoughts… Opinions…
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It might be like Presidencies in real life - with a month or more lapsing between the election, and the new President actually taking up their office.

    This would allow Valorum to send Sifo Dyas, and for Dooku to be recruited and then arrange the murder of Sifo-Dyas - without Maul being in the picture.
     
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  3. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Nice to see Dooku is NOT him as I thought. :D
     
  4. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Wait what?

    Dooku is not Tyranus? Is that what you are trying to say?
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I was guessing that he was saying "It's nice to know Dooku is not Sifo-Dyas."

    Actually, it seems to be that in the TCW-verse, Dooku might have masqueraded as him - contacted the Kaminoans, and placed the order.

    Old EU (Labyrinth of Evil) had Sifo-Dyas place the order with the Kaminoans shortly before getting murdered - it's possible that this has been retconned.
     
  6. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    I think it is fairly obvious that Dooku was pretending to be Sifo-Dyas and ordered the clones. In fact the way the timeline works out that way. Obi Wan says in AOTC that the cloners told him the order was placed "almost" 10 years ago, which would place the order after the events of TPM.

    However, I think it is also clear in the new Canon that Sifo-Dyas is killed before the events of TPM. The new canon sets up that it is a fact that Tyranus has Sifo-Dyas killed, and Silman, before he is murdered by Tyranus, tells the Jedi that Sifo-Dyas was killed so someone powerful could pretend to be him.

    Wo we know who wanted Sifo-Dyas dead, and that's Tyranus, and we know why Sifo-Dyas was killed, so Tyranus could pretend to be him... So the logical conclusion is that he was pretending to be him to order the Clone Army.

    I got the specific distinction that it happened under Valorum's admin, because secret senate committees were involved, files being sealed etc.

    During the investigation, Yoda first goes to Palpatine, but, Palpatine says it had to have happened under Valorum's watch. Thus Yoda has to hunt Valorum down in person to ask him.

    As for the Tyranus thing, the only option that comes to mind is that Dooku was not quite a Darth yet, and was Sidious's equivalent of Ventress.

    Dooku went around calling himself Tyranus, but, not Darth Tyranus yet. Just as in AOTC when Fett says he was recruited by a man named Tyranus. Possible?
     
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  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Seems viable. Though I wonder why a point is made of how he was removed from the Council for advocating the creation of an army, if he doesn't actually get any involvement.
     
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  8. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    yeah i pondered that one too. I think Sifo-Dyas actually believed what he was saying, and had those visions. However, he didn't make it a secret, so much so it got him kicked off the Jedi Council.

    If you are Sidious, and you need to make a secret army for the Republic, but, want to make it under someone else's name, who better then the guy who's running around telling the Jedi Council and other Jedi that the Republic needs an army. I am sure Dooku had something to do with letting Palpatine know the how's and why's of Sifo-Dyas being kicked off the council.

    It seems under the new canon, Dooku was involved with Palpatine/Sidious long before must of us thought.

    Edit:
    However, there is a scene in the TCW episode when Dooku, Anakin, and Obi Wan are fighting, Dooku again tries to explain to Obi Wan that he is trying to fight against the Sith, and Sifo-Dyas was helping him. That has to be a lie, as why would Dooku want to kill Sifo-Dyas if he was helping him. Obi Wan calls him out on as it being a lie...
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Dooku & Sifo-Dyas could have worked together for a while, until Palpatine ordered Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas and assume his identity. That would fit with Dooku's reputation as a maverick even while still a Jedi, mentioned in the AOTC novel.
     
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  10. Among the Clouds

    Among the Clouds Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2001
    Given that Sifo-Dyas's transport and lightsaber are found, I think we are meant to believe that he was in fact involved with Dooku to some extent and then killed (possibly by Dooku, as indicated in Legends). Of course, this could have been staged evidence to make it seem that way. But since it's not outright revealed that this is the case, I'd like to believe Sifo-Dyas did have a hand in what was happening, albeit a very small one that ended abruptly.

    This Sifo-Dyas episode is definitely one of my favorite in TCW since it makes an attempt to answer one of the most unanswered and confusing things about AOTC. Season six as a whole in my view is the best of the series.
     
  11. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    Well there is no doubt anymore that it was Dooku that had Sifo-Dyas killed. The Pyke's spilled the beans to Obi Wan and Anakin that a man named Tyranus paid them to shoot Sifo-Dyas's ship down. The Pyke's also said that they gave Tyranus the body of Sifo-Dyas as proof that he was dead. So that pretty much concludes without a doubt that Dooku had Sifo-Dyas killed.

    Also now a fact due to the episode is that the Jedi now know that Dooku=Tyranus. As the 3 are fighting, the leader of the Pyke's calls him Tyranus, to which Obi Wan looks at Dooku and says something along the lines of "your Tyranus"...
     
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  12. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Maybe that was meant to explain why the Jedi found it so plausible that Sifo-Dyas had ordered a secret army.
     
  13. Alienware

    Alienware Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 19, 2013
    mikeximus: Thank you for writing that, a very interesting read for someone like myself who has never watched any of The Clove Wars series. Maybe I should...
     
  14. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    IL: I am not a 'he'. Yes, I am happy indeed Dooku is NOT this dead Master as many have supposed.
     
  15. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    So what brings you to that conclusion? Who was it that Silman was saying wanted to be Sifo-Dyas?
     
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  16. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    I have a couple of questions in terms of the sense of this version of events. The first is; at what point during the Clone Wars does this battle between Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin take place? Surely that Dooku was called Tyranus by the Pykes (incidentally a name that has unfortunate connotations for British viewers I think), and that Silman had just told them that the Pykes weren't responsible for Sifo-Dyas' death but that "someone powerful" was......knowing what Obi-Wan knows......just how stupid are we supposed to believe he is to not be able to join these particular dots into a cohesive picture? Because at no point in ROTS do any of the Jedi seem to have the slightest misapprehension about working with clones who have been ordered at the behest of the Sith.

    The second is; we see at the beginning of TPM that the Council are aware of the secret mission to Naboo - so clearly Valorum trusts their discretion. Why then is Sifo-Dyas sent on a mission that the Jedi don't know about? And how come none of the Jedi have any qualms about a Jedi being sent on any mission not under their authority (that being a major cause of consternation when Palpatine attempts to suggest who the Jedi council should send on a mission)?
     
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  17. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013
    I still think that the events of Sifo-Dyas's death happened after the events of TPM. Otherwise, Dooku's turn to the dark side doesn't really make sense, unless Maul is out of the picture.

    I mean, Valorum could have ended his term a few months after just like many presidencies.
     
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  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    They address this in the episode. The Jedi Council knows that something is wrong with the situation they're in, but they have no reason to fault the clones themselves. The clones are good, loyal men with nothing but pure intentions toward the Jedi. What are the Jedi supposed to do, exactly?


    They apparently had no idea he was sent on a secret mission until they found out in the episode. At that point, it had been ten years and Valorum was out of office. A bit late to get mad at the man.
     
  19. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Good, loyal men who will follow orders without question. Each Jedi on a mission is surrounded by...how many clone troopers? I'd expect to see some wariness on the part of the Jedi. And...when Mace Windu learns that Palpatine is "A Sith Lord?"....and the Sith ordered the clones, and they follow orders without question.... Who is their Commander in chief? Surely it would have been prudent to warn the Jedi out in the field, surrounded by clone troopers who (I'll repeat it again) follow orders without question and are under the overall command of a Sith Lord, who ordered the army from the Kaminoans.....Again, not too many dots to join here.

    So...a former Jedi Council member just....disappears and no-one wonders where he is? I just get the impression that the Jedi are fully aware of where their fellow Jedi are. Did none of them ask, when giving him his new mission, where he was, btw? And, to repeat, the Council were aware of the secret mission to Naboo, so why would Valorum trust their discretion in that instance, but not in the other?
     
  20. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    The Clone Wars Episode distinctly sets it up that the events surrounding the death of Sifo-Dyas happened under Valorum's Chancellorship. So it would be before the events of TPM, or at best lining up with the beggining of TPM. As in Sifo-Dyas is killed around the same time that the blockade of Naboo is going on, but, before Valorum is booted out. Part of the proof of this is that Valorum is the one that seals the file pertaining to Sifo-Dyas's secret mission to Oba Diah.

    So I was a little confused by the whole Maul/Dooku thing too. However, I think, and this is only my opinion...I think that it's going to be played out that Dooku was to Sidious what Ventress was to Dooku. Once Maul was killed than Dooku graduated to the big leagues. This keeps everything good inthe universe, as far as the rule of two. It also further helps set-up that Dooku was still in the Jedi Order when he was doing all these nasty deeds, so it makes sense that he was the one that erased Kamino as well since only a Jedi could erase the Kamino file.

    Once Maul is killed and Sidious needs a new apprentice, Dooku, who prior to that was running around doing Sidious's bidding only as Tyranus (to hide his identity), now becomes Darth Tyranus.
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Why would they be wary? After three years, the Jedi had grown to trust the clones. Even gave them names and considered them as normal people with the same face. They don't see them as a threat and they don't know that Palpatine will issue Order 66.

    Mace believes that he and the Jedi Posse can capture Palpatine before he can do anything yet. And they believe that they have the element of surprise here.


    Sifo-Dyas, like other Jedi, can come and go as they please. That is the freedom that all Jedi have. That is the trust that they have.
     
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Very interesting.

    Some here most likely know that I have been debating this thing several times and my opinion, based on the movie, was that Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the army as Obi-Wan said he was already dead. I also argued that the Jedi know enough to arrive at this conclusion themselves and I think the film implies that they did.

    Several people used old EU to say that, no, Obi-Wan was wrong, Sifo-Dyas did NOT die until after the order was placed. The Jedi found this out and they also found out that Sifo-Dyas DID in fact place the order. And all this was just going with what the film implied so there wasn't any problem or contradiction with the film.

    If this new EU indeed trumps the old one then this shows that Obi-Wan was 100% correct, Sifo-Dyas WAS killed before the army was ordered and if the Jedi double checked this, they would have confirmed it. Also the Jedi can NOT confirm that Sifo-Dyas really did place the order because he never did.

    So this means that at the end of AotC the Jedi knows or suspects that the clone army was ordered under a false name and either they didn't dig into this and the doubt remained or they did dig into this and confirmed that it was ordered under a false name. So the Jedi, at no point, would ever trust the clone army since they know it was ordered under a false name. I can see them using the army at first because the republic was about to be attacked but knowing the army was ordered under a false name would and should make them cautions with it, keep it at arms length. And when they talk about removing Palpatine in RotS, the clone army would be very relevant.
    This would also mean that since Sifo-Dyas can't have ordered the army, now Dooku becomes the prime suspect.
    Since a Jedi HAS to be involved, given the deleted file and the fact that Jango works for him, all evidence points to Dooku. So the Jedi could indeed think that Dooku did this.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  23. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Why would they be wary? Really?! They are commanding an army that they have discovered were ordered for the Republic by a Sith Lord, and thos "good, loyal men" are also created to follow orders without question.

    Couple of things to say about this. First, it would have taken maybe five miuted tops to warn the Jedi, before going to face the Chancellor. Secondly, they go to face the Chancellor because he has revealed himself to Anakin (a Jedi) who is reporting this to the Jedi......there's no reason to be confident he isn't already, as commander in chief of the army ordered by the Sith who will follow orders without question, ordering a pre-emptive clone attack upon the Jedi. The Jedi know that the clones will obey any orders, that Palpatine has overall command of the troops - if they also know that this army was ordered for them by the Sith, recently discover that their Chancellor (with power over the clones) is a Sith Lord AND Mace suspects that there is a plot to destroy the Jedi..... it makes no sense for him not to be able to join the very tightly packed dots into a very clear image.


    I don't think I have seen one scene in the movies that depicts anything other than that the Jedi know where other Jedi are and what they are doing. What evidence is there for this incredible freedom of movement and action of members of an order sworn to their duties to that order and the Republic?
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Except for when they questioned orders from Pong Krell and disobeyed him, leading to Krell's being beaten by his unit.

    There are clones in the Temple and none of them have attacked the Jedi. Ergo, he has not given them an order to attack. Thus they have time to deal with Palpatine. If he wanted them dead, he would have done so already.


    1. Obi-wan doesn't know where Anakin is until he tries to contact him and finds out he is on Tatooine and not on Naboo, where he told him to go.

    2. Yoda and Mace don't know Anakin is on Tatooine either until he relays the message from Obi-wan.

    3. Mace asks Obi-wan where Anakin is, while in the Council chambers.

    4. None of the Jedi Council know that Qui-gon and Obi-wan are on Tatooine, much less why until they issue their report in person.

    5. Obi-wan doesn't tell the Council he's on Geonosis until he sends his transmission. They just know from his last report that he was following him.

    6. The Council doesn't know that Anakin isn't spending his nights in the Temple, when he's on leave from the war. He's spending it with his wife. Only Obi-wan knows this.
     
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  25. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Sorry, I thought we were talking about the movies...where we are told by the Kamioans that they follow orders without question.

    But, from a man who we have seen just moments before fretting that he senses a plot to destroy the Jedi....?



    But he knows where he should be, and that there is a place he should be is telling, is it not?

    See above.

    What would it be to him, if Anakin is free to do as he pleases?

    Again, the Jedi knew where they were supposed to be...and I don't think their ending up on Tatooine has anything to do with being where they want, when they want.

    Eeeerrmm..that's because he didn't know where he would end up. and once he is there he reports to the Jedi - because they seem always to have this urge to know where the Jedi are. Again, this does not amount to Obi-Wan choosing to be where he is, when he wants to be there.

    Which is just deception on the part of Anakin, not a freedom he has to be where he wants, when he wants. The phrasing of your own explanation here infers that the Jedi expect him to be somewhere - not that he has a freedom to be where he wants.
     
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