PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

sorry - what I meant was : in the Sith con did they arrange to make it look like Dyas got the money from somewhere plausible ?

in reality was Dyas someone who had argued that the jedi needed an army , did the Sith pick him because he would be believable as someone that would order a clone army in secret ?

the Sith knew that when the jedi learned of the clone army they would do some investigation into it's genesis , so I assume the Sith scheme had elements to make it plausible .

.

 

Alexrd

So that when the Jedi discover the army, they wouldn't be surprised about the name Sifo-Dyas being involved.

I totally agree that whomever played Sifo-Dyas used that name for the sake of the Jedi. My questions is more how could Dooku pose as both Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus on Kamino without the Kaminoans recognizing him as the same guy and risk them telling the Jedi? In ATOC it's possible Dooku is Sifo-Dyas for the Cloners and Tyranus for Jango. But on The Clone Wars Cartoon show the Cloners on Kamino talk to Tyranus via hologram for orders and use his name. So I'd imagine they have meet both Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus.


It's irrelevant who pretended to be Sifo-Dyas, Dooku or Sidious. Bottom line is that the Sith did it.

Agreed 100%. And really the mystery is solved at the end of ATOC with that revelation. It's all the other details that we don't learn. (I like that little bit of mystery.)

How so?[/quote]

How so as in 1) Maul being involved is far fetched, or 2) how did he reveal that info to Savage Opress.

1) It seems a little bit far fetched for Maul to be involved in ordering the Clones on Kamino when he isn't brought up at all anywhere or by anyone for having a part in it or anything to do with Sifo-Dyas or his death. However if Maul originally started process of ordering the Clone Army using the name Sifo-Dyas and then was killed, it could explain Tyranus coming in. And maybe even the need to kill off Sifo-Dyas earlier than originally planned. (But I really don't think that happened)

2) Maul revealed it to Savage after regaining his wits and being updated on the current state of the galaxy.


Darth Maul: My hatred kept my spirit intact even though my body was not. As I was lost and became a rabid animal, and such is how you found me, brother. Discarded, forgotten... I have missed soo much. The force feels... out of balance.
Savage Opress: Yes, there is conflict. The Clone Wars.
Darth Maul: Ah, yes. So it began... without me.
Savage Opress: You can begin again, brother?
[Handing Maul his lightsaber]
Darth Maul: I was apprentice to the most powerful being in the galaxy once. I was destined to become... so much more. But I was robbed of that destiny by the Jedi, by Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Savage Opress: Then you must have your revenge, my brother.
Darth Maul: Yes, we will start with revenge...

 

Well if the Jedi only get second hand info via Palpatine as opposed to going to Kamino and talking to the cloners themselves, that can make all the difference. Then they might only have some vague details about around ten years ago and since they can't question Sifo-Dyas, they have no leads.
They don't know Jango, they don't know the name Tyrannus or much of the stuff they found out in AotC.
Plus if the clone army is revealed and the war starts the same week, the Jedi have no time to dig deeper.

RE: money, the film doesn't say but if Palpatine is the chancellor, it wouldn't be hard to divert funds to pay for this.

RE: Palpatine and deniability. He has that already, a Jedi is said to have ordered the army and if the date mismatch is never known, then if there is any heat, it is directed against the Jedi. Which could be part of the plan, that this makes the senate and the public wary of the Jedi. "The clone army is useful no doubt but that the Jedi went behind the senate's back like this, can we really trust them?"

RE: the timeline of Palpatine being chancellor, I didn't get any sense in AotC that Palpatine had sat longer than what was allowed. RotS had that plot point yes but not AotC.
So maybe ten years is the normal time you are allowed to be chancellor. Since it took a bit less than that to make the clone army, it fits fine that he set the wheels in motion after he became chancellor.

RE: why Dooku used Jango. Simple, he knew him already. He hired him to be the clone template and probably had regular contact with him. So when Dooku needed Padme dead, he turned to the guy that already worked for him. Jango was competent and reliable. Things worked in Dooku's favor here. When he was putting together his seps and asked Nute about it, Nute agreed but at a prize, Padme's death. Since this was around the time the army bill was being debated and Padme was interfering in his and Sidious plan for the army bill, he could kill two birds with one stone. Killing Padme would pass the army bill and satisfy Nute.
If Zam was part of the plan or if that was just Jango playing it safe is unknown.
Also, Dooku probably didn't have time to go look for an assassin to kill Padme. He had one at hand so why not use him?

I think that as far as Zam and Jango goes, they thought the bomb at the start of AotC would do the job. Padme dead, a false trail to Naboo miners existed so no nothing lead to them. Then that failed and they had to change plans. Why they used bugs makes little sense. If they have a droid than can get this close and cut through the window and not raise any alarms, why not use a bomb, weapon or gas? This is a far more direct way to kill Padme and leaves less room for failure. And why does the droid idiotically return to Zam when discovered? Self-destruct would make a lot more sense or simply going in a total opposite direction while sending a signal, "the jig is up."

And how come the attempts against Padme just stop after this? Dooku still needs her dead to satisfy Nute. If he doesn't deliver then Nute might leave and the seps falls apart.

EDIT, one issue that hasn't been mentioned, the failure of the droid army in TPM.
That this big army was disabled so easily in TPM could have played a part. That Sidious saw that the droids was not as useful as he though and looked elsewhere for better troops. So he thought of clones.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The Kaminoans don't care, they care about getting paid and delivering the product. Their deal is with Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus. And Tyranus doesn't show his face to them as seen in the episode itself.

Like I said, Dooku doesn't show his face in the hologram.

Maul revealing that he knew about the Clone Wars means just that: he knows about the clones and Sidious plan of making an army of them. It doesn't mean he was involved in going to Kamino and what not. It just means he knows his master's plan. Just like he knew about Naboo's invasion in TPM even though he wasn't involved in it.

 

Samuel Vimes -

but the thing is , imagine you're Dooku , you're going to pretend to be Dyas but now his body has been found and the jedi know when he died so now in 10 years time it won't fit in with the invented story .
it would work if Dyas had just gone missing and never been found .

thats why I was wondering if the sith knew that the jedi had found the body .

.

 

Term limits - I thought there was a line in AOTC that mentions this. Doing a quick online search of the script - I can't find it. The old EU had the Chancellor in office for a maximum of 8 years - or two four year terms. If it's not in the movies then it's not official. And the War Powers Act Jar Jar passed got rid of this.

Droid Army - Good question. Are you asking if before Naboo did Sidious consider using droids instead of Stormtroopers to enforce the will of his empire? Or if he considered a second droid army for the Jedi? I'd say maybe for the Empire and never for the Jedi.

With Jango - I'd think after hiring him for the Clone Army the Sith would never hire him for another job. Why risk accidental discover of the plan? Also does Jango know Tyranus is Dooku?

Agreed - but the Jedi would care and could perhaps get that information out of the Kaminoans. (However it doesn't look like the Jedi knew Tyranus was still in contact with the cloners - so it wasn't a problem.)

 

If I am Dooku and the plan is this, I will create a threat, the seps and when the clone army is ready, I will make some threat, the senate will get scared and approve the army and no one will have time to look too closely at the dates.
Remember, Kamino was removed from the Jedi archives so the Jedi were not meant to find it.
And as long as the Jedi are not given time to question the Kamino people in detail, they won't notice the date issue.

Plus did Dooku have a lot of options here? Either he had killed Sifo-Dyas himself and possibly he figured that the body would not be found, or if it was, the Jedi could not determine an accurate date of death.
Or Sifo-Dyas death was not on him.
Either way, he had the name of a Jedi master, one who was on the council, so quite useful.
What else could he do? Use a made up name? That would most certainly be noticed.
Use the name of an alive Jedi Master? Well then he has to make sure that he could kill that Jedi Master and not be caught. Plus he needs to do this pretty quickly.

@Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

To the second, Jango knows Dooku and I think it very likely that he knows that Dooku is Tyrannus.
For it to be otherwise, Dooku would have to have both used a mask and some way to mask his voice when hiring Jango. And this could run the risk of Jango refusing this job when the guy that hires him hides both his face and voice. Jango could very well think he is being set up.

As to the former, the Sith consider Jango quite capable and killing Padme is not all that hard.
Esp if they suggest he use a second assassin to cover his tracks.
The movie doesn't say but I would suspect that Nute's demand for Padme's death was a new thing.
So Dooku doesn't have time to waste looking around for an assassin to do the job.
He has Jango, whom he knows is quite capable and reliable. So why not use him?
The only reason Obi-Wan found Kamino is because Jango used a specific weapon and Obi-Wan just happened to know a guy that could id it. Dooku had removed all info about Kamino from the jedi archives. So had it not been for Obi-Wan's connection, the Jedi would have gotten nowhere.
And if Jango gets caught, I would imagine that he would keep his mouth shut.
If so, the Jedi still has no clue about the clone army. They got Jango for being involved in trying to assassinate a senator. Not making a clone army. Also, who is to say that the Jedi would be involved anyway?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

AOTC novelization page 46:

In the middle of the main floor, standing at the stationary dais, the one unmoving speaking platform in the entire building, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine watched and listened, taking in the tumult and wearing a expression that showed deep concern. He was past middle age now, but a series of crises had allowed him to stay in office well beyond the legal limit.


It makes sense to me that Mace's ROTS comment "Our allegiance is to the Senate, not to its leader - who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired" is a case of this AOTC plot point being picked up and actually brought into the movie.


The "War Powers act" didn't get rid of limits - it allowed them to continue being overridden for the duration of the war - yet another crisis allowing him to keep in office.

Newcanon tie-in materials (The Databank, Ultimate Star Wars, Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know) all say yes, he had something to do with it - he placed the order - but the Sith murdered him "to take control of the Jedi's clone army".

 

What is the deal with the Sifo-Dyas/Felucia discrepancy? The Felucians claimed that he was killed there and that he was with another Jedi. They say they cremated him, but don't mention if the other Jedi died. Dyas died on the moon of Oba Diah. The Felucians lied about Dyas' death and cremation. Were they told to? If so, by whom? Then again, Obi-Wan may have been misinterpreting their ancient dialect. (For that matter, did Dyas understand their language, in order to foster negotiations?)
Perhaps there were two Jedi on Felucia at that time but Dyas was not one of them, (or two beings posing as Jedi).


Is there any chance Dyas approached Valorum with the idea of creating an army for the Republic, to which Valorum agreed. I get the feeling he sent Dyas to negotiate with the Pykes in order to have a valid reason to seal the file. Perhaps a detour to Kamino was going to be part of that mission.


How did Dooku/Tyrannus take over as the liaison? They do not refer to him as Jedi Master Tyranus. Dooku as Dyas must've told them "my associate Tyranus will soon be providing you with the template and will take over for me from here." I guess the Kaminoans really don't ask many questions, as long as you've got manners and money.

 

TCW showed that a few Kaminoans knew Dooku and Tyrannus were the same.

 

Dooku was the other Jedi.

No.

No, they didn't. Tyranus hid his face when speaking to them.

 

He did? It's been years since I saw it.

 

Yes he pulled a Sidious and had his Hood disguising his features from them.

 

The other Jedi was Dooku and, imo, the Felucians did not lie at all. What seems to have happened is that Dyas's ship is shot down and crashes on the moon of Oba Diah. The Pykes retrieve Dyas's body and give it to Dooku as proof. Dooku than takes Dyas's body to Felucia where he presents the body to the Felucians with the explanation that he was killed in the fighting when he tried to intervene.

The Felucians wouldn't know that Dooku wasn't supposed to be there, and it was more than likely Dooku that insisted the body be cremated right away.

Highly doubtful. The Chancellor was already skating on thin ice when we see him in TPM, so doing something that huge, without the permission of the Senate would have further destroyed Valorum's Chancellorship. Just doesn't fit with what little we know about him.

This is the problem with the narrative that Dyas's ordered the army than was killed by Dooku to pretend to be him... If the army was already ordered, than there is no reason for Dooku to need to pretend to be Dyas.

I know some like believe that it was possible that Dooku needed to pretend to be Dyas just once so he could tell the cloners that a Lord Tyranus was to be a contact. This theory doesn't make sense because as we see from AOTC, the cloners don't ask for proof, they're all but ready to drop the clone army in Obi Wans lap just for showing up.

 

In the fight after killing Silman, Dooku claims Sifo-Dyas helped him:


"Sifo-Dyas saw the future. That is why he helped me."

 

Makes sense. What fits together best is that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones & confided in Dooku, who probably suggested & hired Jango as the template. Dooku then killed Dyas & co-opted the plan for the Sith.

Did TCW state definitively that Dooku impersonated Dyas?

 

Going by the OP - we've got Silman's statement:

but it's possible Silman doesn't quite understand what exactly happened.

 

Because the parallel thread title doesn't remotely suggest we are currently discussing the same issue there, too, this is essentially a heads-up: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...mbittered-fans.50034387/page-16#post-53594250

I had been told that the AotC screenplay transcript at IMDB is an earlier one, but it makes it clear that George Lucas didn't intend to have a Jedi place the clone army order:

LAMA SU Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He's still a leading member of the Jedi
Council, is he not?

OBI-WAN Oh, yes. Sido-Dyas.

LAMA SU (rising)
You must be anxious to inspect the
units for yourself.
...

OBI-WAN (V.O.) ...I've never heard of a Jedi
called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?

MACE WINDU No. Whoever placed that order was
not a Jedi, I can assure you.

 

Sure but earlier scripts say alot of things.

Yeah those ramblings tell us very little. Could still mean Dyas ordered the clones & Dooku wanted to take over the clone program from after. Doesn't mean he literally impersonated him in front of the Kaminoans. In fact the movie implies that he didn't.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

Sure but earlier scripts say a lot of things.

As I've just argued in the parallel thread, all the relevant (maybe partially hidden) information is in the Kamino dialogue, which appears to suggest that Sifo-Dyas died before the order for the clone army was placed.

You said that George Lucas should've been clearer on that and I quoted from what I heard to be the earlier screenplay which is very close to what actually ended up on screen, and according to which (too) no Jedi ever placed the order.

If in doubt it really helps to verify what George Lucas' actual intentions had been.

 

The movie is ambiguous. The Kaminoans say Dyas ordered the clones, Obi-Wan says some inconsistent things about the timeline & we find out Dooku arranged for Jango to be the clone template. It doesn't address Dyas' actual involvement, but other non-movie sources later do. Including material that Lucas was involved in himself where Dyas was named as the one who placed the order.

 

The Kaminoans say Dyas ordered the clones

A man who claimed to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas who claimed to be acting on behalf of the Republic ordered the clone army almost ten years ago (and probably had enough cash to persuade the Kaminoans to treat the subject with utmost discretion).
It's obvious the Kaminoans never verified the deal with the Jedi Council unless it was Dooku they talked to at the end of the communications line.

Obi-Wan says some inconsistent things about the timeline

He just plays along with their "almost ten years ago" timeline, but during his message to the Jedi Council he suggests that Sifo-Dyas could not have placed the order because he remembers Sifo-Dyas died over ten years ago, i.e. before the order was placed. No one in the Jedi Council thinks it necessary to correct him, so Kenobi's memory is obviously intact.

Including material that Lucas was involved in himself where Dyas was named as the one who placed the order.

What material "Lucas was involved in himself" would that be?

 

Lucas said there was more to the Sifo-Dyas situation & it would be revealed in Ep III. Instead it was explained in Labyrinth of Evil, the official lead-in novel to RotS. In that Dyas is confirmed as the one who ordered the clones initially, before Dooku murdered him & co-opted the plan. A scenario which has been carried fwd into the post-Lucas canon.


LoE was as canon as any novel was in the Lucas regime. The events of it are even referenced in RotS when Obi-Wan tells Anakin that saving his life on Cato Neimoidia doesn't count. It was called the official prequel to RotS. Seems clear that this was where Lucas provided his final version of the Syfo-Dyas scenario.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

Lucas said there was more to the Sifo-Dyas situation & it would be revealed in Ep III.

But it wasn't and for good reason, IMHO: All the vital information had already been revealed in AotC for us to piece it together.

 

I agree with you, but it's not our story. Seems Lucas decided that Dyas was a Jedi who ordered the army & then the Sith took the idea & corrupted it. He was going to explain this in RotS. He used the prequel novel instead.