PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Sure, because knowing that would be pointless in the context of ROTS.

We do learn some extra information behind the Sith's reasoning for co-opting the army, which is Order 66.

 

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it when watching AotC. Seems Dyas ordering the clones initially is both GL's version of events & the new canon's version. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

The clones turning on the Jedi & serving Palpatine. I think we all saw that coming.

 

Then doesn't Obi-Wan reply by saying "You lie!" ?

Dooku's use of the word helped could be interpreted a couple ways. We know Dyas foresaw a need for an army, but did he 'help' Dooku in death, or while alive?

 

Dooku's speciality seems to be telling the truth in a way nobody will believe- "Hundreds of Senators are under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious" springs to mind.

 

Dooku tells part of the truth, ommits part of it and lies all at the same time. He's all about deceit. That's the way of the Sith.

 

An issue that's been brought up in the parallel thread (I have decided to continue posting in this, more appropriate thread) is a quote from the AotC junior novel:

"I'm afraid Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago," Obi-Wan said slowly. More like eleven or twelve years, I think - but I could have the times mixed up. I'll have to check with Master Yoda later.

It's pretty much irrelevant, what Kenobi believes or does not believe at this point. The point is the information he (apparently off-screen) gets from the Kaminoans which he reports to the Jedi Council:

They say Master Sifo-Dyas
placed an order for a clone army...
at the request of the senate
almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression he was killed before that.

Technically speaking I can only think of three explanations:

• The Kaminoans deliberately lied to Kenobi, but what could possibly be their motive or intent? It just wouldn't make any sense
• Sifo-Dyas dissappeared over ten years ago and it was assumed that he was killed in action, hence Kenobi's erroneous "impression". In fact he deliberately disappeared, conducted business unknown to the Jedi Council, placed the clone army order and was killed some time after that.
• Kenobi assumes correctly that Sifo-Dyas couldn't have possibly placed the clone order army "almost" ten years ago because the Jedi have knowledge that he was killed "over" ten years ago.

It's the lack of reaction by either Mace or Yoda which obfuscates the issue. Neither one of them provides a statement of clarification (i.e. either "he was missing in action, we are not sure when he died" or "Yes, our information suggests he was killed "over" ten years ago").

While we all obviously enjoy such mental gymnastics, I think what's relevant is what George Lucas wanted to convey to the audience. As for myself Kenobi's report suggested an obvious inconsistency and that there was something really fishy about that Sifo-Dyas guy placing the clone army order, which later on I was certain had been actually Dooku's work, pretending to be Sifo-Dyas.

And in Lucas' earlier draft it was revealed that a "Sido-Dyas" Jedi never existed in the first place, so it wasn't a Jedi placing the order. Had George Lucas intended to convey to us that Syfo-Dyas placed the clone army order, nothing would have been easier than this:

They say Master Sifo-Dyas
placed an order for a clone army...
at the request of the senate
almost ten years ago.

Period. No good reason whatsoever to have Kenobi speculate about Sifo-Dyas' actual time of death.

 

I take it that what Lucas wanted to convey was 2 things essentially:

1. that the Jedi are given the impression that Syfo-dyas and Tyrranus ( who they don't know) ordered the clone army .

2. For the audience to click that it was Dooku and Sidious all along who did it and are fooling the jedi .

and thats what the movie does , I have some big issues with AOTC but this isn't one of them

 

I'm OK with the new canon's notion that Sifo-Dyas was involved at least at the start, before being murdered.

"Manipulate a Jedi into placing the order" does seem like a Sithly sort of thing to do.

 

I enjoyed Luceno's handling of this. With Plagueis nurturing Dyas' concern over a coming war and a need for a Republic army, and dropping suggestions to him regarding Kamino.

Plagueis later states that he is certain Dyas will order a clone army for the Republic. Or if not, that there are other ways to make it happen. We know that Sidious & Dooku soon took matters into their own hands.

 

Iron_lord wrote

I'm OK with the new canon's notion that Sifo-Dyas was involved at least at the start, before being murdered.

Then essentially you subscribe to this interpretation:

"Sifo-Dyas dissappeared over ten years ago and it was assumed that he was killed in action, hence Kenobi's erroneous "impression". In fact he deliberately disappeared, conducted business unknown to the Jedi Council, placed the clone army order and was killed some time after that."

I'd like to believe I can see both sides of the argument, now:

• From a storytelling perspective and on behalf of general audiences Lucas injected the Sifo-Dyas mystery to make audiences aware something is wrong and/or doesn't add up (suggesting Dooku placed the order). Technically that's what the film tells us and is canon.
• Yet, from an "in-universe" point of view the Jedi should be equally aware of this (i.e. if Sifo-Dyas didn't place the order, then who did? And if that individual used a dead Jedi as a cover it probably isn't on behalf of the Jedi).

For all they know this could be an elaborate trap. What a coincidence that a crisis arises, they are in need of soldiers and it just so happens that somebody placed an order ten years ago and ahead of time so they have enough of these soldiers when they need them the most.

For all they know the first thing these untested soldiers might do, is to shoot every Jedi in the back, once they embark together on their first mission.

Maybe that's what Darth Downunder was aiming at?

 

They got informed he was dead by the Felucians at least - they just didn't know exactly when the death was (and I suspect that Obi-Wan's conversation with the Kaminoans didn't tell him exactly when Sifo-Dyas first contacted them - only approximately).

 

However, you are omitting a very important line that was part of that dialogue...

The part that you omitted is the part where Dooku invokes the conversation that he and Obi Wan had on Geonosis during AOTC. By invoking that conversation, there is no way we can conclude whether Dooku is telling the truth about Sifo Dyas because we know that while Dooku was telling some truth in that conversation on Geonosis, he was also lying as well. So there is no way we can take what Dooku says seriously because we have no source that we can trust that corroborates what Dooku is saying.

Furthermore, if Sifo Dyas did help Dooku willingly, than there is no need for Dooku to ever pretend to be Sifo Dyas, whether to order the army, or after Dyas is dead to pretend to be Dyas to contact the cloners to transfer control from Dyas to Tyranus. If Dyas was a willing participant, than he would have willing transferred control on his own or at least made it known that Tyranus was a contact.

If we step outside of in-universe for a moment, the only reason the writers would have Dooku invoke the Geonosis conversation is to specifically remind the audience that Dooku is not to be trusted. To remind us he has every reason to continue to lie to Obi Wan.

However, Silman was about to reveal something more before he was killed, starting with all is deception... He knew more information than just someone wanting to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas... He was about to reveal that information when Dooku conveniently shows up and murders Silman.

LOE was no more canon than any other novel (excluding the film novelizations). Under the canon levels that were in place when Lucas owned LFL, Labyrinth of Evil, was considered no more Canon than any of the other numerous novels. It was not G-Canon, it wasn't even T-Canon, it was at the best, C-Canon.

Lucas was not involved with the book directly, instead, Luceno was allowed to see shooting scripts for ROTS and the transcripts for the ROTS novelization as it was being written. This does not prove that what Lucas thought about the Sifo Dyas mystery is what Luceno thought! The movie does not, I repeat does not reference the book, the book references the movie.

That is why there is the Cato-Neimoidia reference in the book, because Luceno, upon seeing the ROTS script decided to write a little back story to tie it together.

The book was as EU as any other book! No different that Shadows of the Empire which was the "official" story of what happened between ESB and ROTJ, only to as canon as any other book in the C-Canon level!



I have repeatedly posted this information, so I can only assume people are willingly ignoring it! This source of information had direct access to the scripts, direct access to the Lucas, was at the filing for ROTS, and worked for LFL! That being Pablo Hidalgo.

When StarWars.com Hysperspace was up and running he ran a few webchat's where fans could ask him questions about what things that were going on with the filming of ROTS! Sometimes he could answer sometimes he obviously couldn't/

He was asked directly if we saw the person, on screen, in AOTC, that ordered the Clone Army, and he said yes we did! Here is a summary from of the webchat in which he said it!

http://nightly.net/topic/3395-summary-hyperspace-webchat-with-pablo-hidalgo-11-sep/

Here is the summary from TheForce.net of the same webchat that says the same thing as the summary from above!

http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/EP3_Pablo_Hidalgo_Hyperspace_Chat_Highlights_61492.asp

We all know that Sifo-Dyas was not in AOTC. So that leaves only Dooku or Sidious himself as the culprits!

So no, the original intentions of who ordered the clone army are pretty clear, it was not Sifo Dyas!!!

Because Lucas decided to not include the scene in ROTS as he originally intended, it opened the door to others interpretations of the events, which found it's way into an EU, c-level canon novel!

 

Fair enough, but the novel was released in the lead up to Ep III & on the cover in big letters it was called the "prequel to RotS". Luceno was given access to the early scripts of RotS, to the novelization being written & was in contact with Pablo & others. Since the novel's events led into the movie it's obvious that this novel had more involvement from the LFL movie creative team that just any EU book.

As for Syfo-Dyas initially ordering the clones as explained in the novel, why would Luceno go rogue & against the express story wishes of Lucas? If GL wanted people to continue to assume that Dooku arranged everything why would LoE be allowed to interfere with that? In the novel that LFL released & labeled as the prequel to RotS? Luceno would've needed express permission to mess with the story behind the clone program. If it came from someone like Pablo he would've needed Lucas himself to allow that. Fact is AotC isn't clear about the ordering of the clones, apart from the fact that Dooku hired Jango. This has allowed some flexibility for LFL to go the way they have. For all we know the idea of Dyas ordering the clones & then being killed came from Lucas & was filtered down to Luceno. That would be my bet.

 

mikeximus wrote

He was asked directly if we saw the person, on screen, in AOTC, that ordered the Clone Army, and he said yes we did!

I really don't want to be too nitpicky, but he was not talking about one of the busts we see in the Archives Library?

After all, Kenobi looks at the bronze bust of Dooku, so I wouldn't exclude the possibility, that Sifo-Dyas' bust was in the vicinity: http://starwarsscreencaps.com/star-wars-episode-ii-attack-of-the-clones-2002/22/

Does the TCW episode "The Lost One" constitute a retcon or not? IIRC, Yoda sent Sifo-Dyas to mediate on Felucia, but he never arrived.
That's the point in time he went missing / was assumed dead.

Back to the original AotC dialogue, Kenobi isn't certain about the exact time of Sifo-Dyas' death ("I was under the impression he was killed before that?").

Can we exclude that Lucas deliberately placed that line for the audience (assuming Kenobi doesn't make errors like that) - to hint a connection to Dooku - while "in-universe" there wasn't much to write home about, because Kenobi misremembers, and Yoda just doesn't feel the need to correct him?

 

I could be wrong ( I never read the tie-in novels or databank stuff , I saw the movie and read the novelization ) - anyway , I was under the impression that Dooku wasn't the only jedi who'd left the order in recent times , and that around 10 years ago there had been fractures in the order , with certain Jedi thinking that the order was going in the wrong direction etc.

And that Dyas had probably been one of them , Dooku exploited that , after all he needed to use someone who the Jedi might believe would have done something like ordering a clone army .

 

I am sure you're right, but, that doesn't automatically mean that what we see in the book is what Lucas himself envisioned...

Here is a rare occasion, there is one thing that I will agree with you on DD, but, not for the same reasons that you do.

I have said this many times before, so I apologize to anyone that has had to read this for the umpteenth time... I agree that Lucas not including a scene in ROTS explaining the entire Papatine plot was a huge mistake. For me, it was the biggest mistake of the prequels. However, it was a mistake in ROTS, and not AOTC. I also don't think it's a mistake because it made the whole Sifo Dyas thing confusing. I have said before, I think AOTC is easy enough to follow and understand the mystery, and what the revelation at the end of AOTC implies. I have said before that I think Lucas's intentions were to confuse the audience up to the very end of AOTC, when we the audience are given the one piece of information the Jedi don't have, who is Tyranus! Then go back and plug that info in.

I think it's a mistake in ROTS because by not hitting the audience over the head with an explanation, it did open the doors to alternate interpretations. Which is, imo, what has happened here.
So to answer your questions:

Because it was the EU! The authors in the EU were given artistic license to do things with some exceptions. The big one was no killing off of major characters! For example, one writer wanted to kill of Luke Skywalker in his novel, in order to do so, they had to get permission from Lucas himself. Lucas denied them permission, so instead, they asked for permission for Chewbacca to be killed, to which Lucas said yes. However, that doesn't mean that Lucas thought Chewbacca was dead. It just meant that in this "alternate universe of Star Wars" (that's what Lucas called the Eu) Chewbacca was dead, but, to Lucas Chewbacca was alive and well. This shows the disntinciton between the EU novels and what Lucas actually thought. That even though Lucas himself Ok'ed it, it didn't equate to meaning that's how he had the story planned out in his head. Another rule was, and the one that I think pertains to this issue, and is the basis for why I think Lucas made a huge mistake, is as long as they didn't directly conflict what was seen in the movies the writers were given quite a bit of leeway.

So writers were given leeway to create their own plot points and back stories (for certain characters obviously). This is where I think the problem lies, and why I agree with you. Because there is no full out, in your face resolution in ROTS to the Sifo Dyas mystery, this allowed interpretation into the mix. Because it doesn't directly contradict what is seen in the movies and!, a very important and... the book is still only EU, and not the real story, or actual movie canon, that interpretation and artistic freedom was allowed as a plot point.

Look at Shadows of the Empire! A huge multi-media, multi-platform event, that even saw the inclusion of a couple of it's elements in Lucas's Special Editions (the outrider and swoop), but, that doesn't mean that Lucas's story, or thoughts, or intentions are that while Han was a frozen popsicle, Leia was being seduced by some lizard guy, and Chewbacca shaved his head to pretend to be a wookie bounty hunter....But because there is nothing in the movies that says that stuff didn't happen, well, the EU was given that freedom to tell that story, even though it may have completely went against what Lucas believed happen in his head!

That is why I believe it was a mistake for Lucas to not include that scene, it opened the door to the EU going off in another direction with his narrative, and because it was the EU, and not the movies, it was allowed. So now, that EU explanation has crept it's way into the actual narrative and is now officially the narrative...

I guess in the end, what people need to understand is that just because it was ok'ed to be in some EU novel, doesn't mean it was true when it came to Lucas. Boba Fett was another perfect example, he directly ok'ed the resurrection of Boba Fett, but, in his head believe he died at the sarlacc...

This, imo, is just not true, based on what Hidalgo said during the filming of ROTS. He was there, he saw the scripts, he sat with Lucas, so on and so forth. For him to give information like that wasn't merely his opinion. For him to say that we saw the character that ordered the clones in AOTC speaks volumes of the intent.

Do narratives change? Of course they do! Do writers change their minds on narratives after a few years? Of course they do! However, at the time of AOTC and ROTS, I believe the narrative that Dooku killed Sifo Dyas (or at the very least used a dead Jedi's name) in order to pretend to be him and order the clones was still very much a part of Lucas's thought process. As evidenced by Lucas's own words in the AOTC DVD commentary, and Hidalgo's comments in the webchat!

Who knows though, maybe Lucas will give an interview tomorrow saying it was Sifo Dyas all the way...

You and I will just never agree on just how good a job AOTC did with the mystery. I loved it, and I thought it was perfect!

The busts were of the "lost 20". The 20 Jedi that throughout the history of the Jedi Order renounced the Order and quit. Here is the deleted scene (@3:05) where Jocasta Nu talks to Obi Wan about Dooku leaving the Order. Sifo Dyas was killed, and the Jedi knew he was, he didn't leave the order so his bust would not be in the Archives. What is very important also in this deleted scene is Jocasta pointing out another time frame that ties Dooku to the whole 10 years thing....

Again @ 3:05



basically it is no coincidence that Dooku's disappearance is tied to the whole 10 year thing. I bet this is something that Lucas talked about in the DVD commentary that would make it too obvious and give it away before they could reach the end of the film for the reveal. So he took it out...

 

mikeximus

Starwars.com say it's a bit different: http://www.starwars.com/news/hidden-knowledge-5-fascinating-facts-about-the-jedi-temple

Contrary to popular belief, the bronzium busts lining the Jedi Archives were not all members of the Lost Twenty. The statues represented those Jedi Masters that needed to be remembered, both the venerable and those that served as a reminder of the Council’s failure. Among the statues that did not belong to the Lost Twenty were busts of Master of the Order Yoda and Chon Actrion, who was considered the “Architect of Freedom.”

Have all busts been accounted for?

Frankly, I would not have brought that up, but just a few days ago I read this in another starwars.com article: http://www.starwars.com/news/from-a...n-star-wars?cmp=smc|458766079&linkId=24234134

Hidalgo also confirmed what some especially astute fans have noticed: In addition to the brief landspeeder scene, Wioslea appeared in the Mos Eisley cantina. (And good luck spotting her — she’s like the Star Wars version of Waldo.)

I haven't noticed the multiple-eyed landspeeder buying alien in the Cantina, yet, but if we go to such levels of detail attention, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that one of the busts in the Jedi Archives Library may have been the one of Sifo-Dyas, and thus justifying Hidalgo's remark you quoted.

P.S.

"So now, that EU explanation has crept it's way into the actual narrative and is now officially the narrative..."

Unfortunately that wouldn't be the only example.

 

The novel follows an older version of the script where Jocasta calls them the Lost 20, with Dooku being the most recent and most painful...

JOCASTA NU Did you call for assistance?

OBI-WAN (distracted in thought)
Yes... yes, I did...

JOCASTA NU He has a powerful face, doesn't
he? He was one of the most
brilliant Jedi I have had the
privilege of knowing.

OBI-WAN I never understood why he quit.
Only twenty Jedi have ever left
the Order.

JOCASTA NU (sighs)
The Lost Twenty... and Count Dooku
was the most recent and the most
painful. No one likes to talk
about it. His leaving was a great
loss to the Order.

OBI-WAN What happened?

JOCASTA NU Well, one might say, he was always
a bit out of step with the
decisions of the Council... much
like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN (surprised)
Really?

JOCASTA NU Oh, yes. They were alike in many
ways. Very individual thinkers...
idealists...

So here we have a perfect example where the intent of Lucas is not nailed down beyond a reasonable doubt in the finished movie. Obviously Lucas wanted them referred to as the lost 20, meaning they were lost, think of Obi Wan yelling at Anakin in ROTS.. "Then you are lost"!

However, the EU or, other writers have inserted their own narratives and now we have the lost 20 not being the lost 20 being a reminder to the Jedi about the perils of leaving the order, but, now the lost 20 busts are used as busts to celebrate some Jedi?



Also, I highly doubt that any of the bronze statues are of Sifo-Dyas. In the DVD commentary, it is pointed out that a lot of the statues are of people who worked on the movie ie Coleman, and even Lucas himself. It's pointed out that Lucas prob doesn't even know that the busts are of who they are.

So basically if Lucas doesn't even know the busts are of people working on the movie (some of them anyway) and of himself, then he probably wasn't that interested in who they actually were story wise, meaning they weren't important to the story itself, with the exception of Dooku.

Again, the important thing to note is Dooku's departure from the Jedi order and his subsequent disappearance is suspiciously at the same time that the Clone Army was ordered.... hmmmm.....

 

wasn't Jocasta supposed to be an accolyte of Dooku's and helped him delete jedi files ?

 

No.

 

But Dooku didn't lie. He told him the truth. But because their instinct was to disbelieve the Sith because they lie often and always, this is why they weren't able to figure it out sooner.

That was fan speculation.

 

I looked up The Art of AotC to get some truly official information, and according to it the busts in the archives merely represent famous Jedi, alive or deceased.

It would appear that Dooku was "just" a famous Jedi among the busts in the archives and that's all Jocasta Nu is talking about with Kenobi in the deleted scene (i.e. she provides no information whatsoever what the busts are about). The sketches in the artbook also suggest at least 12-13 busts on each side, so we are looking at more than twenty.

So The Art of AotC suggests that the author of the aforementioned starwars.com did somewhat mislead his readers. The theme of the busts is "famous", not "reminding of failures".

So there will be only busts of Jedi other than Dooku belonging to the "lost 20", provided they did qualify as "famous".

Given the little we know about Sifo-Dyas, it would be just everybody's guess if he was famous enough to earn a bust in there.

 

????

In AOTC they had no clue Dooku was a Sith, only that he had fallen to the dark side, and in AOTC he did lie!

Example #1)

Obi Wan calls him a traitor...

Dooku: Oh, no, my friend. This is a mistake, a terrible mistake...

Dooku goes on to blame the Geonosians for Obi Wan's current situation.

That is a lie! Dooku is a Sith Lord, and is a traitor. Obi Wan overheard the conversation where Dooku and Gunray are talking about murdering a Republic Senator and the separatists plot to use their army to overwhelm the Republic

Also, While Obi Wan may not have realized that his accusation was more accurate than he knew (the Sith angle), Obi Wan's ignorance doesn't give Dooku a pass for lying and trying to portray himself as the political idealist, when Dooku's plan is to destroy the Republic and doing so in a way that will kill billions!

Once again, this is realized at the end, when Dooku is revealed to be Tyranus, which than tells us the audience that Dooku is a liar!

Example #2)

Dooku asks Obi Wan why he is on Geonosis, Obi Wan replies that he's looking for a Bounty Hunter named Jango Fett:

Obi Wan: Do you know him?

Dooku: There are no Bounty Hunters here that I am aware of. The Geonosians don't trust them.

That is a lie. Jango ran right to Geonosis, and straight to Dooku.

Dooku is trying to play it off that there aren't any Bounty Hunters on Geonosis because the Geonosisans wouldn't allow it. That is obviously a lie, because not to much later we see Jango Fett with Dooku and in Poggle the Lesser's seating area during the arena execution. Dooku does know who Jango Fett is, while he doesn't deny it, by subverting the question, and pretending that there's no way any Bounty Hunter could possibly be on Geonosis is just as good as lying! Furthermore, by this time, Jango would have surely contacted Dooku to let him know what had happened on Kamino and that he, at the very least, had arrived on Geonosis.

Example 3)

Dooku tries to seduce Obi Wan with the "truth" of why he left the Jedi, the "truth" that he believes would have forced Qui Gon to help Dooku. That truth being that Dooku left the Jedi Order because he found out the Sith were secretly in charge of the Republic, and that Dooku wasn't going along with the Jedi or the Republic because of that "truth".

That is a lie, because, once again, when we find out that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, thus a Sith, we know that Dooku is not about destroying the Sith, he is one. He has been one for a long time (at least 10 years), and that he (and Sidious) is playing both sides in the war that he was involved in just starting.

Once again, that is the point of the final reveal, that Dooku is now evil, he is now in league with the devil, he is a liar, a murderer. He is a war monger, willing to kill billions for power, and whatever twisted sense of control he thinks he can weave over the Republic. That final reveal is supposed to change the minds of the audience from being somewhat understanding or even sympathetic of Dooku, to that of realizing he is lying to everyone and is evil!


Example 4) The Dark Lord betrayed the Trade Federation 10 years ago...

This is a lie! This one takes a little longer to play out for the audience, but, we see in ROTS that the Trade Federation, as well as the other separatists are still in league with Sidious! A little more subtle is that Dooku tells Poggle the Lesser the Death Star Plans will be safer on Coruscant with his Master! Showing that at least Poggle was aware of Dooku's relationship with Sidious. Furthermore, the Viceroy had been tried 4 times in the courts, and never was found guilty. Someone was protecting him behind the scenes!

Example 5) "It may be difficult to secure your release"

A parting lie! Dooku is clearly in charge there, and could have freed Obi Wan at any time. This parting remark to Obi Wan was obviously Dooku giving Obi Wan a big FU for Obi Wan refusing to join him in Dooku's fake rebelling against the Sith.

So now...With the audience knowing that about Dooku, that he is parsing lies with truth in that conversation on Geonosis, when we look at what he says in TCW, we the audience cannot trust what Dooku says about Sifo Dyas helping him! There is no way we can independently confirm what Dooku is saying about Sifo Dyas is truth, or even a lie.

In that episode of TCW, when Dooku invokes the conversation that he and Obi Wan had on Geonosis, Dooku is still trying to pass off the lie that he is fighting the Sith. The Jedi find out that Dooku is Tyranus, not Darth Tyranus. They are still unaware that Dooku is a Sith lord! So Dooku can still try and at least make it look like the Jedi are on the wrong side of the fight because he (Dooku) is really trying to fight the corruption in teh Republic that the Sith are creating. We know that is a lie, so there is no way to trust what Dooku says about Sifo Dyas helping him!

 

It doesn't help the discussion, since most of the characters we get info from are untrustworthy:

Dooku: As pointed out before, in his Geonosis scene, he lies and tells selective versions of the truth (and would tell truth or lie as would suit his goals)

Lama Su (Kamino's prime minister): In the "Protocol 66" arc, we learn that he was in on the chips, taking orders from Dooku (as "Lord Tyrannus") and part of the plan to cover it up. While it's not stated how deep he was in the Sith's plans (or if he just assumed that Tyrannus was with the Republic and putting in classified safeguards), it leaves open the possibility that he was knowingly working for Republic enemies, which throws his testimony to Obi-Wan into question.

Silman: Having lost his mind by the time we meet him, it's unclear how accurate his memories are and what is unfounded ravings.

What we do no for a canonical fact:

- Sifo-Dyas placed the clone order and Dooku and Sidious then took it for their own as part of their plan for the Clone Wars and the Sith's return to being the Galaxy's rulers (multiple reference materials cite this; the theory that Dooku impersonated Sifo-Dyas as been disproven)

- The order was placed before Phantom Menace. Dooku was already on Sidious's side before that movie (as Clone Wars proved).

Beyond that, thanks to our main info coming from sources who may or may not be lying, and the hazy timeframes of how long ago Sifo-Dyas died and the placement of the order, there is some inherent confusion, which kind of fits the fact that it's a conspiracy that the villains are trying trying to keep a lid on, while the good guys are trying to unravel it years after the fact, when the trail is stone-cold.

 

Strange I do not now this, yet. You did read what Mikeximus added in post # 337 earlier today?

To "know" I'd first need to be convinced, that Sifo-Dyas did not die (over) ten years ago but "almost" ten years ago. The film isn't exactly clear on that, but Lucas' earlier screenplay version is (no Jedi placed the order).
Then we have Pablo Hidalgo's remark that the person who placed the order was seen in AotC, but I don't think Sifo-Dyas was that famous that he earned himself a bust in the Jedi Archives (which would be the only visual evidence, but if George Lucas didn't even know who these busts represented, how could Mr. Hidalgo be certain...?).

Nor do TCW provide clear evidence, unless I overlooked something.