PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

I was posting that off of memory. If I was wrong, I will correct it.

However, earlier drafts of the screenplay aren't canon (specifically since the "no Jedi placed the order" scenario was written under the assumption that Sifo-Dyas was made up by Sidious, when all final sources -- including AOTC itself, make it clear he really existed). I'm not sure that that a Twitter post overrules canonical material (unless the people in charge are saying that the book had a typo or a mistake).

Yeah, I did see the earlier post. Interesting point (although I was basing my conclusion about Sifo-Dyas placing the order on information on out-of-universe reference material, not the statements of a character who we don't know how much of his claims are truths or lies).

 

Agreed, & my view on this largely speculation. However I think it's easily the most likely situation. You've given examples of some of the kooky events from various EU novels. You've pointed out that the EU is the EU & technically LoE fell into this category back then. All true, but I see a clear distinction when Lucasfilm releases a novel in the lead-up to Ep III with the words "the prequel to Revenge of the Sith" on the cover. I'm sure that any subject covered in that particular book that involved important movie events like the clone order had to be ticked off by Lucas or his direct underlings. Let's be clear, LFL wanted fans to read this book & then sit down in the cinema & watch RotS. That's how the book was marketed.

Added to that is that Lucas himself declared back when he did the AotC commentary that he wanted to expand on the ordering of the clone army in Ep III. This implied there was more to the situation than met the eye. What met the eye was simply that Dooku killed this Sifo-Dyas person, pretended he was him & ordered the clones. That's the obvious takeaway from the movie. If that's what Lucas wanted fans to believe then he didn't need to add any more story. That is what we all thought. Since a year after AotC he said there was more to reveal I think that supports Lucas at some point deciding that Dyas was more involved than that. I think he changed his mind about including this info in RotS but instead the broad ideas made it to Luceno to expand on in his novel. That's just a theory but I think it's one that fits the available evidence. Far more than Luceno unilaterally plucking the Sifo-Dyas backstory out of thin air & contradicting the story ideas of Lucas that he teased in the AotC commentary.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

If that's what Lucas wanted fans to believe then he didn't need to add any more story.

You make a good point, but from an in-universe point of view the Jedi Council needed to believe Sifo-Dyas did place the order. Had there been any doubts about that, the whole clone army - for all we knew during AotC - could have been a deliberate trap and the clones turned on their Jedi commanders during the very first battle.
Of course Lucas couldn't say what he had planned for RotS (Order 66). He probably wanted to provide a reason in RotS, for the Jedi accepting the clone army in good faith in AotC, but with RotS he also provided the very reason why the clones should have never been trusted in the first place - so he got cold feet and decided not to address the issue, despite his earlier promises. I think that's a feasible theory.

As it stands the question still remains and is apparently wide open to personal interpretation (please feel free to correct where applicable):

Did Jedi master Sifo-Dyas order the clone army or his imposter, instead (Dooku or else)?

"It was an imposter"

• earlier screenplay intention
• Hidalgo's confirmation that the person who ordered the army "was seen in AotC" (Sifo-Dyas was long dead)
• obvious Kenobi confusion about the actual time of Sifo-Days' death (not clarified by either Yoda or Mace, but obviously designed to cast doubt among the audience, suggesting an imposter placed the order which later points to Dooku)

It could appear that James Luceno felt, that Kenobi's "impression" plusYoda and Mace's lack of reaction "established" for average audiences, that an imposter placed the order which - however - would have meant that the Jedi were morons, not doing a thorough investigation. Hence

"It was Jedi master Sifo-Dyas"

• according to the Labyrinth of Evil RotS tie-in novelization and other literature based on it

Speaking for myself I don't think Yoda and Mace were morons, it would appear that Kenobi simply misremembered and it was credible for both Yoda and Mace that Sifo-Dyas did place the order, thus Luceno's "retcon" (with the best of intentions) was unnecessary.

Ultimately, the whole issue reminds me a lot of the parallel OT thread "Why was Vader chasing the Falcon in ESB". According to an earlier screenplay (which also reflected in the ESB novelization) Vader believed Skywalker to be aboard the Falcon when he saw it flew away, according to Brian Daley's ESB radio drama (a canon source, too) he already intended to use the Falcon crew as bait for Luke Skywalker long ahead of their arrival in Bespin's Cloud City, knowing all the time that Luke was not aboard the Falcon.
Here we have two secondary canon sources that attempt to answer a riddle in the film, but they do contradict each other which makes it difficult to objectively determine which one is canon - and which one is not.

The same applies here, but we do perhaps have further means to get to the bottom of it:

Are the Kaminoans involved in a scheme?

Since it has been established that "Sifo-Dyas" placed the order, the easiest thing for the Jedi Council would be to confront the Kaminoans with a visual picture of the deceased Jedi master to verify it was Sifo-Dyas who placed the order.

Assuming the Kaminoans are "innocent" they would truthfully answer yes or no. Assuming the Kaminoans are collaborating with Dooku he would have just provided them with the correct picture and they would have lied accordingly to put the Jedi Council's mind to rest.

Having just recently watched watched the "brain microchip" TCW arc, my first impression had been that the Kaminoans were collaborating with Dooku and working against the Jedi Council, so they appeared to be involved in the scheme.

If that is correct, than there was never the need for the real Sifo-Dyas to show up on Kamino to place the clone army order. It's sufficient that Dooku and the Kaminoans fabricated the "Sifo-Dyas" story and saw to it that Sifo-Dyas had a properly timed accident (i.e. after "he" placed the order) so nobody could ever ask or learn whether it had been really him to place the clone order army.

What am I missing?

 

They concluded that he was a Sith after the Battle of Geonosis. Specifically when he says, "You have interfered with our plans for the last time." A big clue to figuring out that he was a Sith and not just a Nightbrother.

That doesn't make it a lie. The Geonosians found Obi-wan and went after him, but Dooku wasn't the one who ordered his arrest and confinement.

Dooku never claimed he was an idealist. That was the Council's reasoning based on past behavior.

Fair enough on that one.

Dooku not identifying himself as a Sith is not a lie. He didn't divulge that he was a Sith, but that doesn't make what he said a lie. It is very possible that Nute didn't know that he was a Sith until he identified himself as such. Nute coming to him for help and not knowing that he was Palpatine's new Apprentice right away is not a lie

Nute did think he was betrayed when they were arrested after the Battle of Naboo. It wasn't until Dooku revealed the truth to him, that he realized that he was mistaken.

Not quite a lie. It may indeed be difficult to secure his release even if he wanted him on his side.

The Jedi know that he's a Sith. And as to saying destroy the Sith, he is honest about that. He wants to overthrow the Sith and create a new Sith with the two of them.

 

For me, the significance of whether or not Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones has less to do with whether or not the Jedi Council believes that he did it, and more to do with whether or not Palpatine successfully conned a Jedi Master into doing it for him. Posing as Sifo-Dyas to order the clones is an ordinary course of action as far as the audience is concerned. Conning a Jedi Master into doing it is, on the other hand, a masterful stroke if it succeeds and foreshadows how the Jedi will continue to be taken in by Palpatine for the next thirteen years. On the other hand, fascinating as the story of how Palpatine conned Sifo-Dyas may be, it is not actually relevant to the core of the story and is indeed the type of detail better left for accompanying material, so I can understand deciding to trim down the story (even to the extent of making it appear to have occurred differently) and giving the broad ideas to Luceno to expand on.

Also, personally, I always felt that the Kaminoans were either very naïve or very unfeeling - either they don't realise that Obi-Wan is clearly out of his depth despite the advanced technology they have developed which enables them to control the behaviour of the clones they develop, or they realise it all too well but decide to play along and see what mess proceeds to arise from this situation. In any case, I always thought that the Kaminoans were not meant to be understood in the same way that one understands most other species in the galaxy, and for this reason I've never analysed the Kaminoans' responses to Obi-Wan particularly hard, just assumed them to be true.

 

Sorry, they don't know he is a Sith at the end of AOTC. They just know he has fallen to the Dark Side.

The old StarWars.com Databank entry for Dooku used to read:

As for the quote:

This is the "affairs" Dooku is talking about, and the "ours" are the separatists:

The lie is that Dooku is trying to portray himself as a having motivations that are honorable and that he is not in charge on Geonosis, that he would have to petition the Geonosians for Obi Wans release as if he was merely a diplomat there. That is lying and trying to trick Obi Wan into thinking that he (Dooku) is something he is not. Obi Wan saw the seps meeting, to which Dooku is not aware that he saw it. So Obi Wan knows Dooku is lying through his teeth, he knows Dooku is in charge there as he is the leader of the seps, and all party's involved are seps.

He is claiming to be an idealist when he invokes the corruption in the senate and that the Sith are at the head of it and that is the reason why he left the order. That is lying, it is a lie! He is portraying himself as something he is not for reasons that are not true. He left the Jedi Order because he was a Sith, and he is not trying to destroy the Sith, he is one of them!

Dooku not identifying himself as a Sith, and trying to convince Obi Wan that he (Obi Wan) should join him to try to destroy the Sith is lying! Dooku is not trying to destroy the Sith, he is one of them! He is involved in a Sith plan, to destroy the Republic, so the Sith can take over, a plan hatched by his Sith Master.

Even if you wanted to hold to the belief that Dooku is not lying because he doesn't reveal to Obi Wan that he is a Sith, it is still dishonest, and obviously Dooku is purposely trying to mislead Obi Wan! This is why anything that Dooku says that can't be confirmed by a more trustworthy source, can't be trusted. That is why in TCW when Dooku invokes the conversation from geonosis when he tries to convivnce Obi Wan that Sifo Dyas was helping him can't be trusted.

Nothing in the movie suggests this, other than Dooku, and as I keep pointing out, what he says can't be fully trusted.

Dooku is in charge, it is clear. Poggle the lesser isn't leading the seps!

No, they don't know he is a Sith! That is why no one says Darth Tyranus! That is why Dooku refers to the conversation back on Geonosis, Dooku is still trying to play the role of being on the right side of the Clone Wars because he is fighting against the Sith. Whatever Dooku's personal ambitions were (overthrowing Sidious), it is clear that Dooku is lying to Obi Wan on Geonosis as to why Dooku left the order and is trying to leave the Republic, it is to fight the Sith. Dooku is trying to portray himself as good, and doing something just and righteous, when he is not. He is lying about his true intentions, which is that he is trying to fight the corruption that is in the Republic that is being led by a Sith Lord. That's why Dooku brings up Qui Gon's name, he is trying to convince Obi Wan that Qui Gon would help him (Dooku) in his fight against the Sith.

While Dooku may be secretly wanting to get rid of Sidiious for his own personal gain, that is not the context to which Dooku is talking too and trying to convince Obi Wan to help him in. So that makes it a lie! Dooku is still playing that role as a savior and fighting the Sith when he refers Obi Wan to the conversation on Geonosis...

 

In the Geonosis scene, Dooku is mixing lies and truths (he was lying about Jango Fett not being welcome on Geonosis, for example, but was telling the truth that hundreds of Republic senators were under the influence of the Sith). Since we only have his word on much of that, it's unclear how much of his claims are which. For example, when he expresses the opinion that Qui-Gon Jinn would've joined the Separatists cause, we don't know if he's just saying what he thinks will best motivate Obi-Wan, or if he really believes that himself.

I think we're supposed to not know how much is truth and lies, just that Dooku is trying to talk Obi-Wan into joining him and that not all of it is the truth, but at least some of it is (albeit selectively presented).

 

But they know that Dooku is Sith by ROTS: "Sit Lords are our speciality", and the increased hunt for Sidious as the master of the Sith indicate that the Jedi strongly believed that Dooku was a Sith.

TCW also suggests this, with the Jedi even mistaking Dooku for the master at one point, and believing Maul to be the apprentice, badly misinterpreting what they've seen.

 

Some insights from Filoni on his take on who ordered the Clone Army.

 

Yet, as pointed out, they know in ROTS and TCW. So after the battle, they figured it out.

Dooku knew that he was there. He had sensed him and Jango had already gotten in touch with him. And the Sith do think that their intentions are honorable the whole time they're doing what they do.

He did leave because of what the Jedi Order had become and because of the Senate. He's known for years that the Senate was corrupt, enough so to allow a Sith Lord to take charge. He truly believes that what he and Palpatine are doing will put an end to the corruption. So he's not lying when he says what he says, he just doesn't present himself as an idealist.

And he will kill Palpatine when the time comes, and take over for himself which is why he wants Obi-wan to join him. One Sith will die, a new one will be born.

And yet, he could very well be telling the truth. The Jedi don't want to believe it because of their arrogance in believing that they would tell the truth from a lie.

Or he is telling the truth. Just because someone is alleged to be a known liar, doesn't always make them so.

I didn't say he was. But he is in charge of Geonosis and it's political sphere.

The Pykes call him Tyranus right in front of Obi-wan and Anakin, on top of calling him a Sith Lord in front of Palpatine.

The corruption in the Senate predated Palpatine. All they're doing is exploiting it.

 

Well first is that we aren't talking about ROTS. Then it still isn't made clear in ROTS that they know Dooku was a Sith Lord, and whether or not Palpatine's line, which you omitted, is the first time they find out. And the increased hunt for Sidious has nothing to do with them believing Dooku was a Sith. I mean how does that knowledge equate to an all of a sudden more urgency to find Sidious?

TCW? Now, I am not the up most authority of TCW, but, I don't ever remember that in any of the episodes. It sounds like you might be getting your signals crossed with the comic series 'Son Of Dathomir" where the Jedi see Maul and Dooku together, and believe Dooku is the master.

A comic, while canon, well, I am not going to go into another diatribe of how the further we get from the Lucas era how things seemed to be getting more and more screwed up narrative wise.

And as I pointed out, we aren't talking about ROTS (which is not 100% positive without a doubt they even did know), and as I pointed out, I am pretty sure the point about TCW was wrong.

We are talking about two specific moments. The end of AOTC, and that moment in the TCW episode "The Lost One".

Once again, when Dooku reminds Obi Wan about the conversation on Geonosis, I will re-post it so we can see it together:

Dooku: I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi... You should have joined me! Sifo Dyas understood! He saw the future, that is why he helped me.

Again, it is clear that Dooku is referring to what he told Obi Wan and why he said it to him. That the Sith had control, and that Dooku was trying to fight them. Dooku is lying to Obi Wan and trying to make it seem like he (Dooku) is the good guy fighting against the Sith. This is exactly what Dooku is referencing in the TCW episode and why he invokes the conversation from Geonosis, which he then uses to tell Obi Wan that Sifo Dyas realized this and it's why Sifo Dyas helped Dooku!

I mean, it's pretty cut and dry. There is no other way around it.

He sensed him? Where in the movie is that pointed out? Jango thought Obi Wan was dead, hence the whole Obi Wan hiding in the asteroid trick. While I agree that te Sith believe what they are doing is the right thing to do, that is a straw man argument right now, because in that moment when Dooku is talking to Obi Wan, Dooku is pretending to be something he is not. he pretending to be some kinds of statesmen, that he is some kind of ambassador there with no real power, that he would have to petition the Geonosisans in order to get Obi Wan free. We the audience, and Obi Wan know that clearly Dooku is in charge.

Trying to present yourself as something your not in order to deceive is lying!

Once again, you are ignoring the facts as presented in the movie, in order to sustain your point. Dooku directly linka teh corruption in the senate to being a result of the Sith controlling the Senate. Dooku is portraying himself as being on the right side of the fight, that the Sith needed to be destroyed in order to help the Republic!

Count Dooku: It's a great pity that our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he were still alive. I could use his help right now.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you.
Dooku: Don't be so sure, my young Jedi. You forget that he was once my apprentice, just as you were once his. He knew all about the corruption of the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he had learned the truth as I have.
Kenobi: The truth?
Dooku: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic is now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?
Kenobi: No, that's not possible! The Jedi would be aware it!
Dooku: The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.
Kenobi: I don't believe you.
Dooku: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!
Kenobi: I will never join you, Dooku.

Once again, we see Dooku come out and say that he has learned the truth of the corruption, and that he needed Obi Wan's help to end that corruption by destroying the Sith. This is a lie!

That is not how is portraying it to Obi Wan! Which makes it a lie! He is portraying it to Obi Wan that Obi Wan should join him to destroy the Sith in order to stop the corruption in the Senate. He is portraying it to Obi Wan that the Jedi and Obi Wan are on the wrong side of the fight because it is Dooku that knows the truth, and that he is really trying to fight the Sith! Dooku is not trying to fight the Sith, he is one!

He may be, but, there is no way for us to know if he is! That is the whole point here! Dooku is an untrustworthy source! Almost nothing he says can be trusted! He flat out lies, and flat out tells the truth. We the audience knows this, we see it! We see his lies, we see his truths, however, when it comes to his saying in TCW that Sifo Dyas was helping him we don't know if it's a truth, or a lie in order for him to further perpetuate the myth he tried to pass off to Obi Wan on Geonosis that he 9Dooku) is the good guy trying to fight the Sith in order to save the Republic. We know that is a lie. Dooku is part of the corruption that is the Sith. Whether Dooku believes he will make things better is irrelevant because he is not telling Obi Wan the whole truth, and leaving out a huge detail because it would show that he is lying!

When someone consistently lies, they are an untrustworthy source! Once again, when Dooku says something that can't be independently confirmed from a more trustworthy source, than there is no way to know if Dooku is lying or telling the truth. That is the whole point of talking about this in reference to the TCW episode. We cannot use what Dooku says as a source to answer beyond a reasonable doubt that Sifo Dyas was helping him!

And Dooku pretending he had no influence there, that all he was is some kind of ambassador that needed to officially petition something is the fake face of Dooku. Clearly if Dooku wanted Obi Wan free, he could have done it easily.

Once again, Tyranus is not indicative of a Sith. Darth is, and nobe of the Pykes say Darth Tyranus, only Tyranus. When this happens, Obi Wan replies "You are the man called Tyranus?" Notice he doesn't say you're the Sith called Tyranus, or he doesn't say, You're Darth Tyranus. he simply says "You are the man called Tyranus/"

In ROTS, the Jedi do not call Dooku a Sith in front of Palpatine. All Obi Wan says is that Sith are their specialty, in response to Palpatine calling Dooku a Sith Lord. This doesn't 100% beyond a reasonable doubt confirm that the Jedi knew that Dooku was or wasn't one.

Straw Man, because Dooku is trying to convince ObI Wan to join him and help him destroy the Sith which Dooku has linked the Sith as being the source of the corruption.


Once again, as I have said many times now, what Dooku says on Geonosis too Obi Wan is a mix of truth and lies. It makes Dooku an untrustworthy source of information. So, in TCW, when Dooku refers to that conversation, and than proceeds to give information based off of that Geonosis conversation, we the audience cannot tell if Dooku is telling the truth or telling a lie.

 

Fo what it's worth, Wookieepedia states that Sifo-Dyas orders the army himself and that the Sith then took the project over, citing the Clone Wars episode "The Lost One" as the source.

 

No such statement is made in the episode, and considering the nature of Wookieepedia (anyone can edit it), it's not worth much.

 

Not just anyone can edit the Databank though - or write books like Ultimate Star Wars and Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know.

 

No, but nobody can edit the source material (the episode itself).

 

In TCW, Mace does say that Sifo-Dyas had unconventional ideas. It's never explained whether those ideas took shape as a result of Sith manipulation, though. To me, it seems likely that he was in some sort of contact with them before placing the order for the clone army. Likely, but not necessarily so.

 

And the episode itself is pretty vague - with the only person who says "Someone powerful (Dooku) who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas" being crazy and expressing an opinion rather than an exact description of events 10 years before.

 

So lets ignore the only indication in the episode of what really happened and make stuff up and put it in a book?

 

Unreliable narrator is unreliable. Even if Dooku did masquerade as Sifo-Dyas for a very short time - that doesn't mean he made first contact with the Kaminoans, with Sifo-Dyas being completely framed.

It seems pretty clear to me that the Story Group's intent is for Sifo-Dyas to be involved at least at the start of the process, otherwise they wouldn't have let no less than three newcanon sources say so.

 

I could care less what the intent of the story group is. It's not their story. It's George's. I care about what his intent is, and (in the absence of other information from him) that's in the episode.

 

George sold the franchise. And in any case, "intent" when it's that hard to judge, is irrelevant to "what actually happened"

Star Wars is an evolving universe. It's pretty obvious that Lucas didn't intend Vader to be Luke's father when he first created Vader - he changed it, later.

Similar logic can apply to Sifo-Dyas - Lucas may not have intended him to be an Involved Jedi Master when the concept first came up and he was a Darth Sidious alias "Sido-Dyas" - but - things change over time.

 

Yes, and he doesn't cease to be the author of his works because of that.

But it's not hard to judge. You're downplaying Silman's version of the story due to his "madness". Which would be fine, if there was something in the episode itself (or from George) that directly contradicts his version. Dooku tried to silence him up, which is a pretty good indication of the veracity of his statement.

Yes, but his finished work has Vader as Luke's father, which is what matters. Creating a story is an evolving process, but we are discussing the finished story, as it stands now, from its author. Not what a third party declared to have happened.

Like I said, things do change over time, and the finished product seals the deal. In this case, the finished product, from the author, is the episode. And in that episode, the only information we have is that someone wanted to pose as Sifo-Dyas.

 

Iron_lord

Similar logic can apply to Sifo-Dyas - Lucas may not have intended him to be an involved Jedi Master when the concept first came up and he was a Darth Sidious alias "Sido-Dyas" - but - things change over time.

I was under the impression that the TCW Episode "The Lost One" didn't explain whether Sifo-Dyas ordered the clone army or not. Since George Lucas supervised TCW he could have provided input clarifying the issue.

If he didn't then nobody else should feel entitled to do so, IMHO.

 

That's what tie-in media is for, among other things - clarifying things that movies leave vague. Creating backstory. And so forth.

 

Back to the original post:

Anakin: Who was responsible?
Silman: Someone powerful, someone who who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas.
Obi Wan:Why?
Silman: All is deception. [chuckles] Can't you see? Because because

It is at this point that Darth Tyranus shows up and Force Chokes Silman to death before he can finish his sentence.

Unless Anakin and Obi-Wan assumed that Silman has lost all his marbles, the mere fact that Silman is being killed by Dooku (so he can't tell them) rather clearly suggests that something is not right about the whole clone army order and probability is high that Sifo-Dyas wasn't the one ordering it.

In AotC it remained deliberately unclear (with the possibility that Sifo-Dyas had been the one), but "The Lost One" strongly suggests it wasn't Sifo-Dyas.

Simply put: AotC didn't make the Jedi look like morons, but "The Lost One" did. The only rationalization I can come up with that they fought alongside the clones which proved themselves to be loyal, so the issue who ordered the clone army had become somewhat irrelevant.