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PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mikeximus, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    I was under the impression ( [face_whistling] ) that the Felucian tribal leaders didn't meet Dyas alive, the other Jedi (most likely Dooku) brought him to them already dead, lying that he'd died in a Felucian battle, and asked them to cremate him.

    Kenobi was not able to discern the nuances of their story due to their ancient dialect. So here is another thing we may never know for sure.
     
  2. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    In the episode, Yoda comes out and asks the former Chancellor Valorum who was the other Jedi that was sent with Dyas and Valorum clearly states (to Yoda) that there was no other Jedi sent on the mission to Oba Diah only Silman!

    To me it seems clear that Dooku was not a part of either mission, that he was behind the scenes when Dyas was on Oba Diah, and talking with the Pykes. It was only after Dyas was killed and Dooku was given Dyas's body by the Pykes as proof (proven int he episode) that Dooku than took Dyas's body to Felucia, pretended that Dyas died on Felucia and than had his body cremated!

    This is why no one knows who the mystery Jedi was because he wasn't part of any of the missions. The Pykes never indicate in any way that Tyranus came with Sifo Dyas, they only say that a man named Tyranus paid very well to have Sifo Dyas killed.
     
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    As Obi-wan said, the Felucians use a primitive form of dialect.

    OBI-WAN: "I have spoken with the tribal leaders on Felucia. They use a very ancient dialect, which is hard to understand, but from what I can make out, when Master Sifo-Dyas died, he was not alone. There was a second Jedi here with him."


    Not unlike what Threepio said about the Ewoks.


    LUKE: "Do you understand anything they're saying?"

    THREEPIO: "Oh, yes, Master Luke! Remember that I am fluent in over six million forms of communication."

    HAN: "What are you telling them?"

    THREEPIO: "Hello, I think... I could be mistaken. They're using a very primitive dialect. But I do believe they think I am some sort of god."

    Obi-wan is only relaying to Yoda what he has interpreted the Felucian leaders have told him. As I noted, they didn't use Threepio or any other Protocol Droid for an accurate translation. His understanding was that Sifo-Dyas had made it to Felucia unmolested and had died shortly after arriving. This is contradicted by the fact that Sifo-Dyas ship and Lightsaber were found near Oba Diah. His ship should have been on Felucia and he wouldn't leave his Lightsaber behind if it wasn't damaged. Obi-wan was adamant for years that the Lightsaber was a Jedi's life and to part with it was to put them at a greater risk of death. Instead, his ship was damaged from being shot down. It doesn't make sense for him to go on ahead without some other means of transport and without his weapon. Nor the fact that the emergency distress signal wasn't activated. This strongly suggests that he didn't go to Felucia alive.

    Also note that Silman was left alive and he said that the man responsible wanted to be Sifo-Dyas. Meaning that he had survived the crash and had heard Dooku talking about it. Since Minister Lom never talks about it, that leaves Sifo-Dyas as being alive long enough to have been told this. He probably did fight Dooku, or attempted it and demanded to know why. Dooku, being foolish and arrogant, told him the truth. He overlooked Silman being alive and took off with Sifo-Dyas as soon as possible. He might have been on a deadline. The Pykes took Silman and kept him. The insanity bit is hard to figure out. Possibly he had tried to wipe his mind with the Force and caused him to suffer a form of insanity. Or he had been left on the moon long enough that he went insane due to the isolation and near starvation. Whatever the case, Silman wasn't fine anymore and not in a position to contact Coruscant. With Valorum assuming Silman as being dead and his political career being destroyed soon after, it had slipped his mind to bring it up to the Council. Meanwhile, Dooku never bothered to destroy the ship which is why it was found, either because he assumed that it wouldn't be found or he had simply forgotten about it in the rush to cover his tracks. Either way, he made a mistake that nearly cost them. This only furthered Palpatine's desire to remove him and go with Anakin.
     
  4. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016

    Okay, not a bad reconstruction. My only question would be that I got the impression from the Pyke's explanation to Obi-Wan and Anakin that Sifo-Dyas was killed in the crash and they turned the body over to Dooku, so if I'm remembering right, how would that affect Silman's knowledge of events?
     
  5. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Dyas was killed outright in the crash, and it was the Pykes that retrieved his remains and delivered the remains to Dooku as proof of Dyas's death. Dooku never went to the crash site himself, and never even saw Silman to even know he was alive or dead. The Pykes did the entirety of the dirty work for Dooku, as that is what they were paid to do, Dooku simply took Dyas's body to Felucia where he staged Dyas's death there, so as to throw the Jedi off and avoid any suspicion.

    Lom: The Pykes wanted to gain an advantage over the other crime families, so alliances were made. One alliance was with a man named Tyranus.

    Obi Wan: I've heard that name before. Jango Fett mentioned it during my Kamino investigation.

    Lom: Tyranus wanted Sifo-Dyas dead. The Pykes were well paid to shoot down his ship. However, any man that is willing to pay to have a Jedi killed is dangerous and unpredictable. The Pykes inspected the crash to retrieve the Jedi's body for proof. But with the dead Jedi, the Pykes found another, still alive.

    Obi Wan: Silman, the chancellors aide...

    Lom: The Pykes gave Tyranus Sifo Dyas, but the Pykes did not tell Tyranus of Silman. The Pykes needed insurance.

    Anakin: Insurance?

    Lom; Yes, and now the Pykes can bargain. We give you Silman. You forget about the Pykes' treachery against the Jedi.

    Dooku never went to the ship, never saw Silman, etc etc. He paid the Pykes to take care of everything, and than Dooku made it look like Dyas was killed on Felucia so as to avoid having the Jeid poke their noses around Oba Diah and possibly uncovering the plot to kill Sifo Dyas. As per the episode...

    The Jedi did find out about the Dyas's ship though as they somehow picked up on it's distress signal over 10 years later.
     
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  6. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    mikeximus wrote

    Obi Wan: I've heard that name before. Jango Fett mentioned it during my Kamino Investigation.

    So Kenobi saw Jango working for Count Dooku on Geonosis but no link / connection between Dooku and Tyranus was ever found / investigated / suspected?

    [face_thinking]

    It then would appear that Dooku must have had very good alibis that suggested he was elsewhere whenever this Tyranus guy showed up.
     
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  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Why should there be a connection between Dooku and Tyranus? Jango is a gun for hire. Might as well make a connection between Dooku, Tyranus and someone else who had previously hired him. Not to mention that Tyranus hired Jango ten years before the events of AotC.
     
  8. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Alexrd

    So you'd say there is nothing to write home about about the leader of the droid army (Count Dooku) showing up with the template of the clone army (Fett) - who just has been a donor until recently - that's just about to see it's first action against aforementioned droid army, because it was conveniently ready to battle the droids?

    IMHO there is a bit too much of coincidence.
     
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    There's just that: a bounty hunter working for a person who's in league with the person who wanted a certain senator dead. He happens to be the template of a clone army, but any perceived connection is pure speculation, and that leads nowhere.

    There was nothing convenient about finding Kamino and its clone army. It was deleted from the Jedi Archives. Kenobi just happened to know someone who could identify the dart.
     
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  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    To paraphrase Londo Mollari, "With a whole planets worth of bounty hunters, only an Idiot would immediately dismiss any possible connection. With a galaxy's worth of bounty hunters, only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would immediately dismiss any possible connection."


    [/QUOTE]

    What was very convenient is that the clone army was ready within days of the Republic being attacked by a huge seps droid army. A droid army put together by Dooku. The same Dooku that Jango works for. And who happens the template of a clone army that will oppose said Dooku's forces. Hmmmm?
    Did this Jango tell Dooku about this army he is making for the republic?
    Why wouldn't he? If Dooku goes down, if Jango is caught with him, he goes down as well.
    If he did tell Dooku, why didn't Dooku take steps to counter said clone army?

    Even someone with more teeth than brain cells would find this a little bit too fishy.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Because the Jedi didn't consider it. Simple as that. They believed that Sifo-Dyas did it based on his past history of wanting to raise an army to combat what he perceived to be a growing threat and that he acted on his own. With his demise and no way to find out who Tyranus was, they were stuck. As Obi-wan said, the trail goes cold on Felucia. And as to Jango and Dooku, they didn't see the connection because of his role as a bounty hunter for hire. They cannot know for certain what he did or didn't say to Dooku, because Mace killed him. The Council had believed that if Jango had said something, that either Dooku wasn't worried or he was and had the Confederacy develop a virus to target the Clone Army. Which was then why CT-5358 killed Master Tiplar, two years later.

    Once they find out that Dooku was Tyranus and that Sifo-Dyas was killed near Oba Diah, they realize that the Sith had a hand in the Clone Army, but they cannot do anything about it. As you yourself said, they cannot stop fighting because that would be treasonous. They cannot tell the Senate and the Chancellor, because that would undermine the support of the war and the faith in the Jedi to do their duty properly. And before they even found out about this, the Senate voted to give the Chancellor Emergency Powers which enabled him to use the Clone Army, regardless of what the Jedi want. Because they told the Chancellor and key senators about the Clone Army, they played right into Palpatine's plans. And even if they did suspect it earlier, we come back to the fact that they cannot do anything about it. The Chancellor has his powers and the Clonetroopers were deployed.

    Either way, they were screwed from the get go.
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    You might as well make a connection with anyone who hired Jango during the 10 years since he signed the deal with Tyranus. Sorry, it's still an empty assumption. Evidence is needed, assumptions can be misleading.

    Yes, that was convenient to almost everyone but the people who were planning to attack a defenseless Republic.

    That happens to be working for. He's working for Dooku because, as Obi-Wan heard, Gunray wants Amidala death. And Dooku needs the TF support for his attack against the Republic.

    Why would the Jedi assume that he would say anything to Dooku? Jango was hired by Tyranus for the army and by Dooku (at Gunray's request) for Amidala's assassination. You simply have nothing to jump to the conclusion that they are related. A Republic army doesn't favor Dooku at all.

    The whole secret army creation is fishy, they know it. Doesn't mean they should assume Jango's current employer was the one who did it.
     
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  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No it is not empty, it is a FACT that Jango works for Dooku.
    Given that the Jedi don't know who this Tyrannus is, plus other things like how only a Jedi could have deleted the Kamino file, this fact is serious enough to warrant consideration.
    It is not evidence enough for the Jedi to arrest Palpatine or something like that but it enough evidence for the Jedi to at least CONSIDER the possibility of a connection.

    Not blind dismissal as you keep arguing.
    Your argument seems to be that the Jedi MUST reject any possible connection between Dooku and Jango and they should not spend even one second thinking about it.
    Sorry, that is not very smart.

    They have a connection so they should at least entertain the thought that there might be something more to this and try and dig deeper. If they find nothing or evidence that disproves it then fine.
    But this immediate dismissal without even thinking is frankly stupid.

    To again quote Babylon 5, the President's ship blows up, killing him but the vice-President, got off just before that, claiming he had the flu. "Very convenient illness."
    And here the characters suspected the possibility of foul play but they did their jobs as usual but at the same time they tried to find evidence of this possible coup.
    So they played along but looked for clues and evidence and when they had enough, then they went public.

    Again, with a galaxy's worth of bounty hunters, the odds that Jango got hired by pure random chance is so low that the possibility of a connection warrants a second look.

    I have lots that suggest that they are related.
    First the odds that Jango gets hired by Dooku by mere chance is microscopic and the alternative needs to be considered.
    Second, a Jedi is said to have ordered the army. But said Jedi is dead and was apparently dead when the order was placed. So the order was placed under a false name. Dooku, being a former Jedi, would know Sifo-Dyas name and that he was dead and could have posed as him.
    Third, the Jedi archives have been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done.
    This is obviously connected to the clone army on Kamino so a Jedi must be involved.

    Then you have things like the clone army being ordered very soon after the Sith revealed themselves and were involved in the Naboo incident. Then you have the seps threat, which includes the TF, whom the Jedi know have worked with the Sith. In all, the evidence of a conspiracy is quite numerous.

    Why Jango would say something? A Jedi shows up and tries to arrest him. So Jango knows that he has been connected to the plot to kill Padme. Meaning he is now a wanted man in the Republic.
    If there is war between the seps and the Republic, Jango has a vested interest to make sure the seps come out on top. If the Republic wins, he is now both a wanted assassin and a known associate of a traitor. He stands to gain much more from a seps victory than defeat.

    [/QUOTE]

    What they should do is to CONSIDER the possibility, not reject it out of hand with not a moments thought.
    They should try and dig deeper and see if they can find more evidence to either disprove or prove it, and make some sort of plan as to how they should deal with it if it is true.
    Not go "Oh a clone army, that would be useful, dum, de, dum."

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    But there is nothing more the Jedi can do. The trial goes cold. There's no proof that Dooku was involved in the creation of the Clone Army until he's ratted out by the Pykes. They could suspect something, but they have no reason to believe so. Too many things that point at Sifo-Dyas working on his own with a man named Tyranus.

    An investigation into Jango would show that he was considered the best of the bounty hunters out there, who would risk everything to aid in a political assassination. Anything else would be moot.

    It is equally possible that Sifo-Dyas did place the order for the Clone Army before his death, but his associate Tyranus carried out his wishes. And while Dooku could have erased Kamino, there is no proof that he did. The Jedi Council didn't even know that Sifo-Dyas had gone to Oba Diah before being contacted about going to Felucia.

    Actually, the timing of the order was before the Battle of Naboo. Not after.

    But by that point, it doesn't matter. The Jedi arrive with the Clone Army within hours Obi-wan and Jango's arrival. Not enough time to do anything about it.

    They did dig and found nothing. Not until Sifo-Dyas's ship and Lightsaber were discovered on a moon that was nowhere near where it was that he had allegedly died.
     
  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    darth-sinister wrote

    And as to Jango and Dooku, they didn't see the connection because of his role as a bounty hunter for hire. They cannot know for certain what he did or didn't say to Dooku, because Mace killed him.

    Now that you mentioned that...

    YODA
    Bring him here.
    Question him we will.

    IIRC, Mace was sitting right next to him, knowing the importance of Jango Fett to keep him alive for questioning. Yet same Mace can't help himself to actively seek the confrontation with the key witness Jango Fett, and instead of just disarm him felt the need to decapitate their key witness.

    [face_thinking]

    What was Mace up to? Maybe we haven't heard the whole story, yet. [face_whistling]
     
  16. AllyoftheForce

    AllyoftheForce Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016
    I think Mace was driven by his passion in that situation. He was in the heat of the moment and let his aggression take over, and if I'm not mistaken, this was a reoccurring thing for him. We see something similar later on when he confronts Palpatine in ROTS, the 'grr' face he makes below and his desire to kill him despite it being against the code says it all.

    [​IMG]

    Or, you know, he was secretly a Sith traitor. ;)
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I think this is part of the reason Matthew Stover created Form VII/Vaapad, which would justify such aggression in that scene and why he included references to it in the ROTS novelization. After the deed is done, he lowers his head. Maybe in realization that he had to do it, though it was a setback for their investigation.
     
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  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/author-analysis-matthew-stover.23141067/page-3

     
  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    ^ Turns out I like some of Stover's writing after all...
     
  20. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 27, 2016
    The novel Shatterpoint explores Windu's thoughts and feelings regarding his killing of Jango Fett on Geonosis.
     
  21. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    He likely felt that they no longer needed to interrogate the man.
     
  22. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Well apparently, regardless of the fact that it's confirmed in the movie and in interviews from the time (Pablo Hidalgo confirmed in 2003 that the person who really ordered the army is in AOTC). Regardless of the fact that the TCW episode The Lost One even further supports that the Sith killed Sifo-Dyas then took his identity and ordered the army. So I took it upon me to ask them myself and the current canon is that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army himself even tho he was dead by the time it was ordered? [face_plain][face_dunno]:rolleyes:

    The Pablo Hidalgo interview from 2003
    http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/EP3_Pablo_Hidalgo_Hyperspace_Chat_Highlights_61492.asp
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  23. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 13, 2014
    Exactly. Jango was too big a threat in the area, Mace didn't have much choice. Jango had already killed one Jedi. Between his skill and gear, Jango could go toe to toe with a Jedi. Mace is the best of the best, and even he had a bit of a fight on his hands. Also I doubt Jango would have been captured alive. Not in that moment anyway. He was more than capable of fighting his way out of there. And if that didn't work he had more than enough gear to make sure he and the Jedi around him were all permanently out of commission for good.
     
  24. FutureEmperor

    FutureEmperor Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jul 15, 1998
    Still wonder what Lucas was thinking with the red herring aspect of Sifo-Dyas sounding so remarkably like Sidious with a different intonation (and one syllable.)
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The origin is simple; originally the dialogue when Obi-wan arrives on Kamino was different. It was supposed to be Sido-Dyas, a mispronunciation of Sidious, which would be like how Jar Jar doesn't say people's names right. But in the shooting script, it was too evident that the Jedi had no involvement in the Clone Army and that it was a product of the Sith. Lucas decided to make it a bit more muddled by introducing a Jedi whose identity was stolen and used by the Sith, thus making the Jedi look more competent.