PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

We were also talking about TCW, where it was revealed that the clones had chips implanted in their brains that would ensure that they obeyed Palpatine's orders. The same place that the Jedi learned that Dooku was Tyranus and that he was the one who was behind Sifo-Dyas's death and wanting to create the Clone Army.

At the moment he was thinking that Palpatine was planning to turn the Senate against the Jedi and forcefully disband the Jedi Order. When he does find out, he's not thinking about the clones. He's thinking of Palpatine using his political powers.

Right, but knowing that and knowing all their movements are two different things.

He asks because of Padme, who is still needing to be kept under watch.

My point is that the Jedi Council doesn't keep minute by minute progress reports on the Jedi in the field.

Not at all. Anakin could stay the night elsewhere on Coruscant, but he shouldn't be doing it with a spouse since that's against the Code. But he could go spend the evening in the nightclub that he and Obi-wan track Zam to. Or he could go somewhere to be alone if he cannot sleep. It's not like there are bed checks being performed. If he walks out of the Temple, security isn't going to question him. If he's needed, he's only a comlink call away.

 

Indeed, but my issue is with how TCW 'information' doesn't seem to tie in with the movies, hence my questioning the explicit knowledge that the Jedi would have that the clone army was ordered by the Sith, that that explicit knowledge would make their actions after seem really stupid.

And....chips in their brains? Sweet cheeses....don't think I've missed much.

How do you know what Mace was thinking? That certainly isn't explicated in the movie. But even if initially he might have been thinking of a political agenda....knowing that the Sith ordered the clones, and then knowing that their commander in chief is a Sith Lord, that the clones follow orders without question.......I mean, come on. Let's put this knowledge into a simple sequence from Mace's point of view. We know for definite that the clone army were ordered by a Sith Lord....which is a bit weird, why would they gift the Republic a whole army? We know the clones will follow orders without question. We know that Palpatine is their commander-in-chief, and so has ultimate command over the clones...who were ordered by a Sith Lord, and who follow orders without question We know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord.......there's something going on here, but I just can't see what it might be....

In each case they are expected to be, as in ought to be, in some place or other and to behave within their duties and oaths to the Jedi Order. In the particular case of Sifo-Dyas, how is he acting in his duties to the Jedi Order if he is acting directly for the Chancellor, without authorisation or knowledge from the Council? And....this is a Jedi they have removed from the Council for his....radical ideas? And yet none of them have any questions about where he has gone.

As I said before, your own explanation of Anakin sneaking off rather implied a level of duty to the Jedi. Certainly not the supposed freedom to go where they please when they please.

 

We now know the reason for his death, but the fact that he died and Dooku took his identity to order the army was already implied in the movie, right?

- A record was erased from the Jedi Archives (something only a Jedi could do).
- A dead Jedi's identity was used to order the army.
- Tyranus (later revealed to be Dooku, an ex-Jedi) hired Jango Fett to be the template.
- Sidious and Tyranus later reveal their plan to create a war has come to fruition.

All the clues were given to the audience.

But you raise a good question regarding Maul and Tyranus existing alongside each other. This concept is generated due to TCW tying the timing of Sifo-Dyas death to Valorum's chancellorship, a detail we didn't know before.

They don't know who used Sifo-Dyas' name to order the army (they only know him as Tyranus) and are obviously suspicious about its creation, but they don't have a reason to doubt the soldiers themselves, specially after being saved by them many times during the war.

Not quite. Jango works for anyone who pays for his services and just because Dooku was a Jedi once doesn't mean it was him who deleted the file from the Archives. There's not enough correlation between what they know and a connection to Dooku. Only when they discover that Tyranus is Dooku do they become aware that the Sith are behind the creation of the army.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have always felt AOTC implied Dooku was the one that really ordered the clones. However, because we never have a character actually coming out and saying it or Dooku admitting it, this has led many to come up with their own theories. Even now with this episode of the clone wars, we still don't have that moment where a character actually says it was Dooku, even though it is even more heavily implied than the movie, so there are still those that will not believe it as we have witnessed in this thread already.

 

The army was ordered under a false name and by order of the senate, which was another lie.
That makes the army hugely suspicious. The timeing is also suspect, the order was placed almost ten years agoe when there was no seps threat. And yet it is ready just when the jedi/Republic needs it the most. Very convinient. Also, the Jedi knows that the clones will obey any order without question. So they can't choose to be loyal, if they get an order to kill all jedi, they will do so.
So they jedi should not trust the clone army.

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The deleting of the file is obviously connected with the clone army. Only a jedi could have done the former, ergo a jedi is involved in the latter. Also a Jedi would know Sifo-Dyas name and know that he recently died, thus his name is usefull.
So almost ten years ago, a Jedi deleted the kamino file, was involved in the order of the army and possibly hired Jango to be the template. The jedi know that Jango works for Dooku, who fits all of the above and he left the Jedi order around that time. With a whole galaxy's worth of mercenaries, the odds that Jango got these two unrelated jobs by mere chance are mircoscopic.
So a connection exists and with Sifo-Dyas not ordering the army, Dooku is now the prime suspect.
So the Jedi could and should have at least suspected Dooky for having a hand in this.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Is it possible that Valorum sent Sifo-Dyas on the Oba Diah mission while he was still Chancellor, and sealed all details relating to the mission, but that Sifo-Dyas wasn't diverted to Felucia and killed until some time after the events of Episode I? Sifo-Dyas never completed his mission on Oba Diah, but he still could have been staying there for some time. So Dooku would still have been recruited by Sidious after Maul's defeat. I haven't seen the episode in a while, so I'm not sure if anything in it discounts this possibility.

Just because Anakin is free to do as he pleases doesn't mean Mace isn't also free to ask where he is.

Obi-Wan was on an official mission. He was "on duty," so to speak. Presumably, Sifo-Dyas wouldn't have been on duty when he went on his mission to Oba Diah, so there was nowhere he was expected to be.

It's both. He's free to be where he wants to be, otherwise someone would probably notice he never spends his nights in the Temple and Anakin would get in trouble. He also lies about where he is, because obviously he's not supposed to be sleeping in a bed with his wife.

Sifo-Dyas could go where wanted to go when he wasn't ordered to go somewhere on a Jedi mission. And if the Jedi happened to ask him where he was, he could lie just as well as Anakin could. If Sifo-Dyas really did order the army, then clearly he has no problem with deceiving the Jedi.

 

I'm just pointing out what seems anomalous to me. Which is, as members of an Order, to which they have sworn oaths; which they serve wholly, I can't see how they would be free to just go and do what they please when they please. It doesn't ring true for me. When Mace asks where Anakin is, it doesn't come across to me as light conversation - it seems to be asked as if he would expect Anakin to be there. How do the Jedi send someone on a mission if they don't know where they are? And, when they do contact them (as when Ob-Wan eventually traces down Anakin) they have a good idea of where they are....so how did they not know he was on Oba Diah? And, would they not have wondered why he was there? In fact Obi-Wan contacting Anakin relied upon him knowing where he was, hence his consternation when he wasn't where he was supposed to be.

As I say, to me it just doesn't ring true - it doesn't fit with what I have seen and learned from the movies.

 

They didn't have much choice. The Jedi are dwindling in numbers, down to a few thousand by the time Order 66 was issued. The Clone Army is going to be used regardless and the clones were still their best choice for winning the war. As to the bio chip origins, Dooku had suspected or known for certain that while the clones would obey orders, there was also the distinct possibility they would not. Thus the chip was their insurance against any possible dissension in the ranks. The Jedi, on the other hand, did not know of the chip. The Kaminoans had been lead to believe that the Jedi could go rogue as they did during the last war with the Sith and the chip was their insurance against such an action which gave permission to the Chancellor to protect the Republic from treachery.

Mace is aware that while the clones would obey orders, they have it in them to disobey as demonstrated with Pong Krell's treachery on Umbara. The knowledge of the chip is unknown to them. Nor does he believe that Palpatine will get them to obey an order to attack.

The Council not knowing what he was doing is precisely what I'm talking about. They had no need of him after he was kicked off the Council, until they did need him at Felucia. He could thus come and go as he pleased, which he did. He was sent in secret from both the Senate and the Council, because Sifo-Dyas had dealings with the criminal underworld in the past and the Senate believed that open negotiations with the Pyke Syndicate would be viewed as legitimizing their actions and be used against Valorum. While Valorum could get the Council to agree to send Obi-wan and Qui-gon to Naboo, they wouldn't approve of Sifo-Dyas going to Oba Diah to meet with the Pykes.

And that's because he doesn't know that he was on his way back to Naboo with Padme. They haven't kept track of him since leaving Geonosis. As a Padawan, he should be in the Temple if he's not on assignment.

Most likely Sifo-Dyas had switched off his tracking device, which is why they didn't know where he was. When he failed to arrive at Felucia, the Jedi had investigated but because they didn't know where he was when he was contacted about going to Felucia, the Jedi had no way of tracking his previous whereabouts.

 

Yeah, for some reason I assumed we were talking about a line in Episode III or something, not Episode II. No wonder I couldn't remember it.

Given that it actually happens at the end of Clones, there's no contradiction at all, since Anakin is still a Padawan.

 

Which is different from later on when he's a Knight and no one knows that he's sneaking out at night.

 

What a coincidence:



So Sidious did have Tyranus and Maul at the same time. Although the way he puts it, it seems Maul is the official Sith apprentice while Dooku was just being corrupted by Sidious (despite already using his eventual Sith name as an alias). I can live with that.

 

Thanks for the comfirmation, Filoni. It's about time the denial about Dooku's days as Sidious's Ventress come to an end.

 

Coincidence? I don't believe in coincidences.

Like I said earlier Dooku was to Sidious what Ventress was to Dooku.

 

That doesn't seem to make much sense, though. Maul was Sidious's ideal apprentice: young, powerful, aggressive, easily shaped. Dooku was a stopgap until he could find someone younger. I mean, that's literally his role in the movies, and Lucas has said as much.

I think it's more likely that Dooku was one of Sidious's assets, in the same way Nute Gunray was. I don't think Sidious saw him as a serious prospect for an apprentice until he lost Maul. Maybe Sidious kept him on as insurance, but he certainly wasn't grooming him to replace Maul. He wasn't Sidious's Ventress.

edit: Unless that's what you meant, of course. Obviously, Sidious had no problem employing quasi-Sith like Ventress to do his bidding. It's just that in this case, Dooku reported directly to him rather than to his apprentice.

 

Sifo Dyas should have been resolved in ROTS, my humble opinion of course.

As stated by Lucas himself on the AOTC commentary.

 

How could there possibly have been enough time, though? Lucas already had to cut out all of the scenes about Padme forming the proto-Rebellion. He certainly didn't have time to include a subplot about some Jedi Master who wasn't even alive anymore.

I agree it would have been nice to get all the details, but it wasn't really super necessary. The important thing to know is that the Sith were actually behind everything. And we already knew all that by the end of Episode II.

 

Exactly.

 

Not so sure Dooku would be "just" an asset like Nute Gunray. If you have one of the more powerful Jedi in the galaxy under your control, than I would imagine Sidious had bigger plans for him.

Even if Sidious wasn't expecting to lose Maul at the Battle of Naboo, I can see a scenario where Sidious plays Dooku against Maul in order to see who is powerful enough to be his apprentice, that is until Anakin was of age. That is what the Sith do, continuously plot against one another. That's what Vader and Sidious do in ESB. They both agree that Luke would be a powerful "ally", but both are secretly wanting Luke so they can use him to get rid of the other. Dooku tries to bring Obi Wan into the mix in AOTC by tempting him with the truth of Darth Sidious.

 

No, not on the level of Nute Gunray. He was definitely more important. On the level of Ventress, but not necessarily serving the same role.

I just don't see Sidious playing Dooku against Maul like that. Sidious doesn't want some old dude as his apprentice. He's obsessed with youth. He only went with Dooku so he would have an experienced apprentice to tide him over until he was able to turn Anakin.

 

Well, think about this, we all wondered if Maul was supposed to be doing what Dooku wound up doing. This was never cleared up when Vergere was revealed to be a potential Sith along with Dooku in the old EU. And even in the Plagueis novel, it was only tangentially touched upon. My guess that having Dooku be the public face of the Confederacy, as well as handling certain other details while Maul was the enforcer/assassin makes sense. And having Dooku just replace Maul when he had to split makes sense. As to Anakin, well, we know that Palpatine didn't consider him until after the Battle of Naboo had ended and he learned of the boy's role and true identity.

 

Maul knew that Sidious had a plan for a galactic war, hence why he wasn't surprised about it when Savage told him about the Clone Wars:

Maul: "I have missed so much. The Force feels... out of balance."
Savage: "Yes, there is conflict. The Clone Wars."
Maul: "Oh, yes. So it began... without me."
Savage: "You can begin again, brother."
Maul: "I was apprentice to the most powerful being in the galaxy once. I was destined to become... so much more."

If Sidious was planning to discard or replace Maul, he wouldn't share his whole plan so far in advance to him.

 

I didn't say that Maul didn't know Palpatine's plans as he says so himself in TPM that he knows. What I'm talking about is where Maul and where Dooku would be. Maul would be the one leading the Jedi Purge and on the front lines of the war, fighting Jedi, while Dooku would be the political face. Instead, Greivous was leading the military might and Ventress did her share of fighting while Dooku only fought when necessary. And no, he didn't know that he was going to be replaced by Anakin as he doesn't know about him until later.

 

I agree. Dooku was likely a part of the plan all along, but he wasn't necessarily a serious prospect for Sith training until it became necessary.

 

Yes, but being the political face doesn't require any Sith apprenticeship. I share The_Phantom_Calamari opinion that Dooku (at least initially, until Maul was killed defeated) was just an asset like Gunray, Grievous and the like were for Sidious. Maul was Sidious' biggest investment and legacy.

I was talking about Dooku, not Anakin. After Maul, Dooku was Sidious' best choice for a Sith apprentice due to his years of training and experience in the Jedi arts.

 

Why wouldn't Dooku be a serious prospect? I guess what I am having trouble with is this supposed loyalty, Sidious has to Maul. Especially when everything from all 6 movies shows us Sidious is only loyal to himself and the overall Sith game plan, not to any one individual beyond himself. His apprentices are disposable if it means it will help him gain something.

Yes, Lucas has said Sidious wasn't expecting to loose Maul on Naboo, but, this doesn't automatically mean that Sidious didn't have other plans laid out where Maul was disposable. We see Sidious can be very patient when it comes to grooming his apprentices, case in point Anakin. So I really don't think it is beyond reason that Dooku was being groomed to be more than just a Dark Warrior in the service of the Sith. Especially when Dooku was such an important part of the plan moving forward with the Separatists.