PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

I see...Well, Given Lucas' previous contradictions of that sort, I'd be inclined rather to take the TCW portrayal as canon...That pretty well laid the idea to rest, at least for me...

 

well, Sidous’s projection of Syfo-Dias Yoda speaks to in TCW appeared to be on the dark side, with yellow eyes. So Syfo-Dias working for the Sith may have been Lucas’ thoughts when those episodes were made

 

It's not just a random Lucas comment that can be discarded. He said it very specifically, and while Lucas may claim he planned things back in the '70s that he obviously didn't, this is more immediate. And it's something he chose to start pinning down before he let go of Star Wars. I haven't watched the TCW episode in a while, but I suspect there may be hints there of Sifo-Dyas's true allegiance.

In a Q & A for this episode, while answering a question from Leland Chee that related specifically to Sifo-Dyas, Filoni starts talking about a seemingly unrelated topic: Sidious's apprentices. Check it out:

Chee: We find out who Sifo-Dyas is. Did George know since Episode II what Sifo-Dyas was?

Filoni: I can give you my opinion. I don't know. As a storyteller myself, I can tell you [that] you evolve the story so much as you evolve other parts of the story. I think it's something [Lucas] wanted to lock down more before he left. Which is why we have this arc. And one interesting thing that you have to accept, which I'd not really considered watching the movies, is that Sidious has both Dooku and Maul as padawan learners at the same time. Because Dooku, in order to put the things in motion that he does, has to be doing them around the time of The Phantom Menace. So he's operatively working, somewhat knowingly for Sidious, under corruption, while Maul is still there.
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Admittedly this is not direct evidence, but I suspect it was in Filoni's mind because it's something that Lucas had discussed during the making of that TCW episode. Or it could have just been related to the convoluted timeline. And I do think Lucas doesn't care too much at times about timeline specifics. But I suspect it was his final word on the subject. Now whether there is material in Lucas's canon that backs this up, including in this TCW episode, I'm not sure. I'll definitely need to rewatch it. But I do think it was in their minds at the time, so there might be. And Sifo-Dyas's might be one of those clues, of course.

 

Lucas always says he had things planned out. He lies. Consistently. This may have been a passing thought in Lucas' stream of conscience, but considering he is no longer attached to LFL, it doesn't really matter either way.

If Filoni decides to make it canon then it's canon. If not, then it's not. Lucas's opinion on the matter, in a post-Lucas LFL, is irrelevant.

 

I agree that Lucas is well known to change his view of things and claim his current view was always part of the plan even when it clearly wasn’t. And this isn’t something we can know for sure that he had in mind when he last worked on TCW. But I was curious about exploring his statement in the context of his works to see if it could fit and make sense. Because that was the final arc he actually worked on, so it’s realistically quite easy for this idea to have been on his mind since that time, even if it obviously wasn’t when AOTC came out.

I also don’t want to make this a canon debate. The question was related to what Lucas imagined as his “last word” on this subject. He has a different view of his mythology than the rest of Lucasfilm do. This is clearer and clearer as time goes on, when you begin to see certain gaps between his ideas and those of even his closest followers. So while his view may not be Lucasfilm canon, I’m still very interested in his authorial intent, as murky and ever-changing as it might be.

Anyway, I noticed there had been some discussion on this topic of Sifo-Dyas being a Sith apprentice in this other thread from a few months ago. Since it fits this thread’s topic more closely, I wanted to follow up on something that reading that discussion (and this thread) reminded me of.

Was it TCW that revealed that Sidious originally intended for Mother Talzin to be his first Sith apprentice? It could have been something that was only shared in behind-the-scenes info, or perhaps it was from the aborted TCW arc that became the comic Son of Dathomir?

But if that is the case, then this whole idea of Sifo-Dyas being a Sith apprentice makes a bit more sense. Because if Sidious was going to make Talzin his apprentice back when Maul was still a child, that means Plagueis could’ve been killed as early as that time. Sidious opted to train Maul instead of Talzin, but that would leave him without a fully formed Sith Lord for quite a bit of time. That’s not necessarily a big issue, since there’s no reason why a Sith Lord can’t train an apprentice from a young age. But it does make sense for Sidious to have another apprentice while Maul is still so young. So this is when Sifo-Dyas’s turn to the Sith could be placed.

The timeline is still muddled when events come to a head in TPM. This is likely because Lucas doesn’t always seem to care too much about the specific dates of things that happened in the past from the perspective of his current story. And maybe that’s all that really needs to be said if we’re just trying to think of the life of this idea of Sifo-Dyas as a Sith. But perhaps this sketch of a timeline works decently:

Plagueis trains Sidious. Sidious kills Plagueis and considers taking on Talzin as his apprentice. But he opts instead to steal and train her son. Maul is too young to be useful, so Sidious turns Sifo-Dyas. Together these two Sith Lords begin to set up the Clone Wars in the decade leading up to TPM.

This is where things get more questionable. Once Maul matures, Sidious replaces Sifo-Dyas with Maul. Maul becomes the new Sith Lord and executes his duties in anticipation of the Sith’s emergence. Maul is defeated in TPM, and Sidious replaces him with Tyranus, whom he had stared seducing before Maul’s defeat. Tyranus takes over the mantle of Sith Lord and all the plans that come with it.

But then, when did Sifo-Dyas get killed? It would make the most sense for Maul to kill him before TPM, when he takes over as Sith Lord. (Because of Lucas Time, I think the clone army could’ve been ordered a bit more than exactly 10 years prior to Episode II.) But Tyranus seems to have interacted with Sifo-Dyas and TCW implies (or states?) he ordered his death. Unless that is just what it looks like.

Tyranus could’ve started working with Sifo-Dyas since before Maul took over, and he could’ve in fact been someone who Sifo-Dyas was eyeing as a potential Sith apprentice. Sidious is aware of this, has Maul kill Sifo-Dyas, but establishes contact with Tyranus and keeps him as an agent. Once Maul is defeated, Tyranus helps cover up the death of Sifo-Dyas and muddles the origin of the Clone Army so it can never be traced to the Sith.

Yes, this is convoluted, but it also sort of works. And we all know that the only thing as convoluted as Lucas’s own revisions of history are Darth Sidious’s plans. So in a crazy way, it does make some sense. And it paints some earlier Sith apprentice drama that I personally quite enjoy.

 

Is this officially canon? I hate it regardless.

 

I’m not sure. I haven’t read or listened to the new canon works that might cover this period, such as Dooku: Jedi Lost or Master and Apprentice. But I’m not sure that those actually relate to that time period, so as far as I know, we only have the TCW episode and the movies.

I think Filoni was just trying to make sense of Lucas’s timeline, but like I said above, I don’t think that’s something Lucas necessarily pays too much attention to. From the movies alone, it simply seems like Dooku becomes Sidious’s apprentice after he loses Maul in TPM. And it’s after TPM that the Kaminoans are contracted to grow the clone army.

Honestly, the whole thing is just a messy mystery. Like I said, I don’t really mind the evolution of Sifo-Dyas, and I actually like the idea that he was a Sith apprentice, even if it means a messy timeline and retcons. But I can’t deny the appealing simplicity of the original idea in AOTC’s earlier scripts compared to not only what we got in the end but also to the more complex Sith angle.

In an earlier draft of the movie, “Sifo-Dyas” was “Sido-Dyas,” which was a pseudonym Sidious used to pretend to be a Jedi Master and place the order for the clone army. The Jedi would not have recognized that name as belonging to any real Jedi, but they would have suspected a pro-war member of the Senate to have been the one to pretend to be a Jedi to advance their cause. They would not have suspected Dooku or the Sith, which the final version leaves as too close a link in some ways.

So I do admit that this earlier version was much simpler and much cleaner. The story keeps getting more complex and messier, but that is the nature of Star Wars after all. And I do enjoy the additional Sith conflict that it hints at happening prior to TPM.

 

Lucas did have things planned out. That's not a lie, that's a well documented fact. He never said he had everything planned out, down to every single detail or minutae. That's something that he never said. In fact, he has explained many times that he didn't.

No. What Talzin said is that she was once promised by Sidious to be his right hand. That doesn't necessarily mean Sith apprentice:

"Long ago, Sidious came to me on Dathomir. We exchanged secret wisdom -- mingled dark side abilities with Nightsister magicks. He promised to make me his right hand, but instead he stole what was most dear to me... My own flesh and blood. My son!" - Mother Talzin

Sifo-Dyas and Dooku are fallen Jedi that are working for Sidious before the events of TPM. Sifo-Dyas is Sidious' Sith apprentice, and Sidious is raising Maul as a long-term project to become his next apprentice.

When Sifo-Dyas is killed by the Pykes at Dooku's behest (under Sidious orders), Maul becomes the Sith apprentice and Dooku continues to exist as Sidious asset. Once Maul is defeated on Naboo and considered dead, Dooku becomes the Sith apprentice, takes over the clone army project from Sifo-Dyas, gets rid of Kamino from the Jedi Archives, leaves the Jedi, hires Jango to be the clone template, and starts the separatist movement to begin the next phase of Sidious plan.

 

Lucas lies constantly. If he were at a court case, he would not be a credible witness.

 

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

Oh, so he wrote a massive six movie encompassing screenplay back in the 70's entitled THE TRAGEDY OF DARTH VADER? Because that's what he was saying around 2004.

Just like how Lucas said back in 1995 that the OT was originally one massive screenplay.

And how Darth Vader was always meant to be Luke and Leia's father.

And my personal favorite... Right after people starting saying that the PT movies were shot as badly as soap opera's suddenly he starts saying that they were always meant to be like that. He just says whatever he needs to to shield himself from criticism.

The man constantly and consistently lies.

 

Feel free to show him ever saying that he wrote a "massive six movie encompassing screenplay back in the 70's entitled THE TRAGEDY OF DARTH VADER". What eventually became the prequel trilogy never had screenplays back then. They had vague story treatments, which Lucas cared enough to develop at the time. Treatments that informed the story of the original trilogy, and that can be seen right in ANH.

For someone that so adamantly calls Lucas a liar, you don't seem to have much of a problem to spout a good number of lies.

 

It's in a 1997 documentary called "FLYING SOLO" where he claims the whole six-part thing was written at once. Which was after he claimed in 1995 the OT was written at once during the three-part QandA with Leonard Maltin.

 

So, in review: the AOTC story was simple enough, then TCW decided to make it more complex, then Lucas' interview made it still more complex (kind of needlessly, IMO, but anyway). Though, to be fair, there were hints in TCW about Lucas' intentions.

I'd like a story set shortly after the events of TPM where Sifo-Dyas gets recruited by Sidious, then Dooku kills Sifo-Dyas to take his place, and starts the Confederacy. Could be an animated feature.

 

It would have to be set before TPM - since Sifo-Dyas was sent on his last mission, by Valorum, while Valorum was still Chancellor.

 

Right, sorry. TCW really did make it needlessly complex.

 

As muddled as this story of Sifo Dyas has been, it's still just so darn interesting to me. I'm glad TCW dove into it so that makes parts of the story fit but it seems we are still large gaps away from filling in the details. I guess if Lucas never clarifies his statement from the archive book, then we are left to believe Sifo Dyas could be a Sith apprentice/Acolyte. However, from the Dooku audio book and such ive always took away that Sifo was friends with Dooku before TPM as Sifo was asked to the council giving jealousy to Dooku then this all adds up with Dooku eventually turning on him.
I'd like to think of Sifo like Lost Jedi #20 who worked with Dooku and Qui Gon on starting preparation for a future war. He was a valiant Jedi master who was haunted by these visions but would never turn to Sith.

 

are you ever gonna back this up?

 

Sifo-Dyas, Sith Lord or fallen Jedi, never left the Jedi Order, so he could never have been one of the Lost Twenty. And it was established that Dooku was the 20th Jedi to leave the order.

 

I don't know what else you want. I gave a source. You tagged the source! You can find those Leonard Maltin interviews on youtube.

 

so I'm gonna go ahead and call bull****.

 

Yes i guess Sifo didnt leave the Jedi as of his death, but just because Valorum sent him on a secret mission doesnt make him still a Jedi. He was cast out of the council was he not? Maybe the order as well? Is it canon for Dooku to be #20 of lost Jedi?

 

He was removed from the Council, but not, as far as we know, from the Order.

 

He was removed from the Council, not from the Order. We was assigned a mission by the Jedi Council on Felucia before he died.