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PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mikeximus, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. maerj2000

    maerj2000 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2014
    It would have been much simpler if they would have kept Sifo Dyas's original name... Sido Dyas. Then we would have all guessed a long time ago that Sido Dyas was actually Sidious. But maybe that would have been too easy?
     
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  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    It's not about loyalty. It's just that Maul represents everything Sidious desires in an apprentice. It's more than just in-universe logic; it's a thematic precept of the films. Evil discards the old and corrupts the young.


    It would have made the Jedi look too foolish. A Jedi that doesn't even exist ordered the clone army, and his name is an obvious mispronunciation of the name of the Sith Lord Dooku tells them about in the next act? Come on, even the Jedi of the prequels should be able to figure that one out.
     
  3. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    So what didn't Dooku have that Maul did?

    Power? I would pick Dooku over Maul on that one. Dooku was a lot more powerful when it came to the Force, at least in my opinion.

    Lightsaber Skill? While I think this would be a lot closer than powers in the Force, I would again pick Dooku over Maul. While Maul was more flashy, violent and admittedly fun to watch, I don't see Maul ever being able to go toe to toe with Yoda and walking away.

    Ruthlessness? I would think it's a wash on that one. While we don't get to see much of Maul, what we do see of Dooku is he is extreme in his ruthlessness. Helping start a war and playing both sides, where he knows millions will die and yet shows no remorse for it. Then on a personal level, he was going to kill a defeated and helpless Obi Wan in AOTC. I give it a wash because I don't see a situation where Maul doesn't do what Dooku was doing, however, I also don't see a scenario where there is something that Dooku wouldn't do that Maul would have.

    I just don't see how Maul would have been more preferable in the eyes of Sidious, when it came time for Sidious to execute the next stage of his plans. Sidious sees his apprentices as tools, to be discarded when they are past their usefulness. That's exactly how Sidious used Maul, and it got Maul killed. Maul was a tool in that Sidious used him to reveal the Sith have returned, but, keep his own identity a secret. Sidious uses Dooku as a tool, and once he passes his usefulness, he has him dispatched.

    At the end of the day, Sidious's apprentices are no better than a Nute Gunray, or Grievous.

    I just think that eventually Maul (had he lived) would reach a point where the limits of his usefulness would have been reached and Dooku would be needed to put into an apprenticeship role to start Sidious's next stage of huis plan, as we see in AOTC. It just happened sooner than Sidious originally intended. Also, I don't see a situation where Dooku plays errand boy for Sidious for 10 years with no real place in the Sith hierarchy. Dooku joins the Dark Side because of it's seductiveness to attract those that want power, Sidious would have to realize eventually that Dooku would need to be thrown a bone and be made his apprentice.

    I dunno, I just don't see Palpatine having any kind of preference past the one that he can use as the tool needed for that time.

    I see where you're going with that, but, I just don't think that's the theme. Clearly we don't have that with Dooku. If Lucas wanted that precept, than he could have just as easily made Dooku a young Jedi. However, for the theme of AOTC and ROTS Dooku needed to be a statesman, so the perception is usually an older person in that role, that's the theme that needed to be filled for this particular moment. It had nothing to do with trying to show that Sidious settled for Dooku, if we wanted to go out of universe with our explanations.

    I think the theme is that evil discards those that have outlived their usefulness, no matter how loyal they have been to evil, in favor of more power (youth or not). Dooku was dispatched because of the power Anakin would bring to the Sith. Palpatine was trying to dispatch Vader because Vader never lived up to his potential power, so Vader's son was a return to that potential for power, thus Vader outlived his usefulness.

    Sidious wanted to kill a youthful Luke Skywalker, it was only until Vader pointed out his potential to be a powerful ally, that Sidious changes his mind.
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    What Maul has that Dooku doesn't is potential. Maul was in his early twenties in TPM, and though he probably wasn't quite up to Dooku's level in many respects, he was at least comparable. He still had a lot of room to grow, and I have no doubt that he would have someday outclassed Dooku. Someday soon. Maul was an investment; otherwise, why would Sidious even keep him around? Dooku was definitely more powerful at that point. If Dooku was ever a serious contender for apprenticeship, I see no reason why Sidious wouldn't have immediately expressed a preference for him over Maul.

    Why would Dooku ever need to be made an apprentice? Dooku would be Sidious's errand boy because it would be his only chance to have any role in the Sith plot to "reform" the Republic. Sidious would constantly dangle the carrot of apprenticeship in front of him, and that would be enough to keep Dooku going. He'd have no other options, anyway. Except to try to kill Maul himself, which I can't see Sidious allowing.

    I agree. Dooku and Maul were both just tools. Dooku was more useful in his role as Separatist figurehead, with no role in the Sith hierarchy, and who would be discarded at war's end. Maul was more useful as an enforcer, a la Darth Vader, and would hypothetically have served the same role Vader continued to serve after the rise of the Empire.

    I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Lucas made Dooku an old man because he wanted to show that losing Maul was a major inconvenience for Sidious, forcing him to use an older, already-trained Jedi as a replacement. I believe Lucas used some phrase like "Sidious is running out of apprentices." That fits entirely with the theme.


    Sidious saw Luke as a threat. And with good reason: he'd been trained exclusively by Jedi up to that point--without any input from Sidious. It might have been more trouble to corrupt him than it was worth. But even then, it takes literally one sentence of prodding to get Sidious to agree to recruit him. And then everything plays out exactly as has been Sidious's M.O. for his entire career: replace the old with the young.
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    They are replacable (although not as easily), but they are not comparable to Gunray or Grievous. Being picked as a Sith apprentice is a big deal. They are more than 'just a tool'. They are Sidious' legacy. When Dooku was declared a Sith Lord, Sidious already had an interest in Anakin, but it's not like Dooku was a mere stand in. Had he proved himself to be better than Anakin, Sidious would probably keep him.
     
  6. KINGKONG83

    KINGKONG83 Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 22, 2004
    you know it was it was a typo of Sydo dyas in the script that made them go with "Syfo" because Sydo dyas was a little obvious...there was no overarching master plan
    ...syfo dyas was Sheev Palpatine..the one and only!..all HAIL SHEEV!
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Originally - maybe - but "There was a Jedi Master called Sifo-Dyas who was murdered" was wired into the story pretty early on. TCW just elaborated on it - focusing on who committed the murder, and when and where it happened.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, originally it was just Palpatine's Sith name being mispronounced. But Lucas had changed his mind when the re-shoots happened in 01. Obi-wan's meeting with Lama Su when he arrives was changed outright, while Obi-wan's report was changed, but not what Mace and Yoda said since it worked either way.
     
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  9. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    How could there possibly have been enough time, though? Lucas already had to cut out all of the scenes about Padme forming the proto-Rebellion. He certainly didn't have time to include a subplot about some Jedi Master who wasn't even alive anymore.
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Well Lucas must have thought it important to even mention it in the commentary track, so he obviously had some kind of plan or twist for it.

    Furthermore, this is probably the fourth or fifth thread I've seen on Sifo Dyas, so it must be a bit of a mystery to some people still, let alone casual viewers who still think it was either Sidious or Dooku that did it under the guise of Master Dyas.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Which is correct.
     
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  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Going back to the DP novel the idea that Sidious was passing off Maul to Plagueis as "just an assassin" while they were the real Sith Lords is one he would use again.

    Trying to pin it down when there is no distinct canon version is difficult.

    It's kept purposely vague. Sidious might be using Dooku as Palpatine in one way without revealing his Sith identity. Is there anything that says Palpatine revealed his Sith identity to Dooku and Dooku became Tyrannus before the events of TPM?

    My guess would be that the original idea he had in mind for ROTS when doing AOTC was that Anakin hunts Dooku (maybe even after Dooku kidnaps Palpatine) and this would be in the middle of the film. That was an early concept idea.

    The killing of Dooku is the turning point and in some way when they find out is name is Tyrannus that clues them in as Jango says he was hired by a man named Tyrannus.
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Not that I know of - but the The Lost One arc may be hinting at it.

    The old EU was explicit that Sidious revealed himself to Dooku after TPM - but this may be being retconned thanks to TCW.
     
  13. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012
    You're missing the point. I am not saying that Sidious was already prepared and willing to cast Maul to the side during the events of TPM. However, the turning of Jedi Master Dooku is not just this everyday event. Obviously Sidious had plans for Dooku, plans that Maul would have never been able to accomplish once his identity was revealed in TPM. Dooku was in place for very important reasons, and when you take into account Sidious wipes his ass with his apprentices, Maul was in no better position than Dooku will be, than Vader will be, than Luke would have been if he killed his Father and turned to the Dark Side.

    You say Maul had potential, but, he also had obvious limitations that didn't include him in the biggest part of Sidious' plans moving forward. Maul was a tool, no different than Dooku, or Vader. Dooku had the things that Sidious needed to move his plan forward, things that Maul didn't have.

    Dooku didn't betray the Jedi Order, murder people, and start a Galactic War that killed millions just to be an errand boy being led around by a carrot. I give Dooku a lot more credit than that. I would imagine Sidious understands it as well. After all, it was Sidious that gave the whole speech about power to Anakin. Dooku wanted more power, not the promise of more power.


    Vader's role wasn't suppose to be just an enforcer. Vader was suppose to lead the Sith into a new era of sorts. He was suppose to be more powerful than both Sidious and Yoda, as we hear from Sidious's own lips. It's only because of Vader's injuries that he becomes an enforcer, because Sdiious is un-happy with how he turned out. Vader was supposed to be a whole lot more than an enforcer.

    Maul was an enforcer, because that's what Sidious needed at that moment. However, once again Maul would have become useless to Sidious because at some point Sidious would have needed what he was looking for in Vader, someone to carry on the Sith legacy, and that wasn't a simple minded Maul. It also wasn't Dooku, because Sidious saw how powerful Anakin was, not how young he was.

    No he says he doesn't have time to start from scratch to train a new apprentice, and Lucas goes on to say he wanted Dooku because he wanted to show that a Jedi can be turned to the Dark Side. Starting from scratch means taking a young child and training him (which is what he did with Maul), which mirrors what the Jedi do. That's the Ideal situation. However, even that ideal situation is thrown out the window with both Anakin and Luke because Sidious sees the benefit of their power even though they are both older, over the ideal situation of training a child, or starting from scratch. Once again, it is setup that Sidious uses his apprentices only as tools, and discards them the moment they are no longer useful to him. It is not beyond reason that Sidious targeted Dooku as a potential replacement had he the need for one.

    I usually don't like getting into these discussions (because I am very much a Lucas defender), but, another problem with this new Canon, and the quote from Lucas is that they are obviously reflecting two different stories now.

    I have no doubt that the Lucas quote shows us Lucas believes that the Sifo Dyas and Dooku story line happen after the events of TPM. Dialogue in AOTC I think points us to that when Obi Wan says that the clone army was ordered almost 10 years before he found the army. This shows the order was placed for the army after the events of TPM which happened 10 years before the events of AOTC. So I believe in Lucas's mind everything happened after TPM.

    However, for whatever reason, shown in that q&a video, Filoni believes there are problems with continuity that shows the events happened before TPM. I am not sure what or why he thinks that, but, it is obvious that now with the new canon that is how it works.

    So the Lucas quote comes from Lucas believing that the Sifo Dyas storyline comes after the events of TPM where Sidious had to rush to find a new apprentice. Sidious had to rush to find a new apprentice because he wasn't expecting to loose Maul, and couldn't start from scratch. However, we now the new canon where Filoni has it setup that Dooku was involved in the Clone Army well before the events of TPM. So this shows us that Sidious turned Dooku to the Dark Side well before maul's death.

    So basically the old Lucas quotes doesn't pertain to the new canon anymore. At least that's how I am seeing it, because the quote is reflecting a different story. As Iron_lord has said a couple times, the Sifo-Dyas story has been retconned under the new canon.


    It hasn't been his whole career, there was Dooku. He could have just as easily found a young Jedi to corrupt over Dooku. There had to be one.

    He picked an older Jedi for a reason, because it suited his plan better to have an older more respected Jedi to lead the Separatists than some young brash nobody Jedi.

    Also, you are trying to form a narrative that Sidious wanted younger apprentices, when that wasn't the narrative. Sidious wanted more powerful apprentices, it just so happened that in that narrative the situations were they were Younger than his previous apprentice. Maul was picked because Sidious could mold him into what he wanted Maul to be, not because Maul was younger than his previous apprentice, because there wasn't one. Anakin was picked over Dooku because he was more powerful not because he was younger. Luke was picked over Vader because he was more powerful. Luke being Vader's son automatically makes him younger. The narrative is power, not youth. It just so happens the story Lucas writes put younger Skywalkers into his cross hairs.


    Only one Sith was supposed to be his Legacy and that was Vader. Once Vader was defeated, and mutilated on Mustafar, he became a tool just like Maul, and Dooku before him. He was used as a tool on the second Death Star to try and turn Sdiious's next apprentice, which Sidious now saw as his legacy. No one would ever remember Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, and probably Darth Vader, they would have remembered Darth Sidious and his legacy Darth Luke (for lack of a better name).

    I do agree with you on the Anakin vs Dooku point. The whole point of the fake kidnapping at the beginning of ROTS, was so that Sidious could pit Anakin against Dooku. It was a test to see if Anakin was ready, and if it was time for Sidious to start going forward with the next steps of his plans...

    If Dooku wins but Anakin gets away, than Anakin isn't ready, and Sidious will need to wait a little while longer to proceed with the final stages of his plans.

    If Dooku wins and kills Anakin, than Anakin was never powerful enough to be the Sith Sidious wanted.

    However, if Anakin wins, well than he is ready to be the Sith Sidious wants him to be, and Sidious can proceed with his plan.
     
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  14. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    You guys may be fine with insisting it's Dooku but it doesn't mean everyone accepts it. :p I'm with my friend he's a mystery let him stay that way.
     
  15. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    I'm interested in finding out what evidence you see that leads you to believe that it is not Dooku pretending to be Sifo Dyas.

    While I haven't seen anything that tells us when Palpatine finally revealed his true identity to Dooku, what is established is that Dooku was using the name Tyranus before the events of TPM. However, he isn't being called Darth Tyranus, just simply Tyranus.

    In The Clone Wars episode dealing with the Sifo Dyas plot, The Pykes know Dooku only Tyranus, the man that paid them to shoot down Sifo-Dyas's ship. This happens before TPM.
     
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  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Dooku presents himself to the Kaminoans as "Tyranus", not as Sifo-Dyas.
     
  17. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    He did? Where did you pick that up?
     
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
  19. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012
    Episode?

    Because if it is the same episode I am thinking of, he is cloaked and hooded, they don't know it's dooku.

    Edit: Cloaked and hooded much how Sidious does it to hide his face when talking to the Trade Fed in TPM...


    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    I wonder if DF read the Plagueis novel which sets up the events leading to the clone army? That was done under Lucas supervision and approval. What the timeline is from his overseeing of that novel to TCW story must be similar.

    What Filoni believes and why hasn't been canonized as such. Maybe it's information that would have eventually come out from the rest of TCW run which states that this in fact did happen.

    Either way I don't think it's any real problem. Just refining details. Sidious knew that Maul was too limited in his uses and could only serve in a assassin capacity. Having Sidious turn Dooku beforehand doesn't really change much of anything. All it really means is that Maul was just being misled while Sidious had indentified a more powerful apprentice. So no different than he did with Anakin over Dooku or what he wanted in Luke over Vader. If anything it just keeps the pattern going.

    On the details in the DP novel. It could just be that as with Maul's origins Lucas didn't want to put in book form something that was going to be on TCW. In the novel we get part of Maul's origin but that Mother Talzin was Maul's mother was left out. So the placement of Dooku's turn could have been after TPM in the novel but before as might have been revealed in TCW. If Filoni thinks that it was then obviously he knows and talked it out with George.

    I don't see it necessarily as a change for what George had as much as a change from what he told us until he told us otherwise.
     
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He's saying Dooku presents himself as "Tyranus" to them, not as Sifo-Dyas.
     
  22. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    This whole thread makes my head spin :p
     
  23. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    I understand what they are saying, they are also saying it happened in the TCW. I am saying I have not seen an episode where Dooku presents himself to the cloners as Tyranus where it would mean it cancels out Dooku's ability to present himself to the cloners as Sifo-Dyas. Anytime that I have seen Tyranus speak to the cloners, it was in his hooded and cloaked form so that they could not see his face. So if they do not see his face than that still leaves open that Dooku presented himself to the cloners as Sifo-Dyas, and they would never know that Dooku/Sifo-Dyas/Tyranus were all one in the same.

    With that said, I have not seen all the episodes, nor do I remember everything about the ones I have seen, so if there is an episode where Dooku reveals himself to the cloners to be Tyranus, and they clearly see his face, than I would like to know which episode it is.
     
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    The Kaminoans keep referring to him as "Lord Tyranus":

    Lama Su: "We must contact Lord Tyranus."

    (...)

    Tyranus: "Very good. Terminate the clone immediately. However, send the chip to me for analysis."
    Lama Su: "And what if the Jedi ask for the chip and the results of the autopsy?"
    Tyranus: "You must remember, the chip is a safeguard against betrayal from rogue Jedi. Master Sifo-Dyas was the only Jedi who knew of this. But with his passing, we alone know of this secret and you must keep it that way."
    Lama Su: "Yes, Lord Tyranus."
     
  25. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2012

    I think part of the problem with what's going on is that the season 6 was written in 2011 and produced/made in 2013. With that, it means they were going off of the old continuity which was based with the old EU. Then Disney wipes out the old EU, so whatever glitch they got hung up on didn't matter anymore.

    In the Q&A video from SW.com, Filoni said that he had to get the help of Pablo Hidalgo, whom if you are not aware, was the go to guy at LFL for Star Wars continuity (he is now the head of the new Star Wars continuity for Disney under the new canon). Anyway, I have to imagine that if they had to call Hidalgo, then there was a problem with the EU and it's continuity that possibly didn't mesh with (what I think) was Lucas's original idea that the events surrounding the ordering of the Clone Army all happened after TPM.

    Whatever Filoni was looking at, lead him to believe there was a problem with that because he even admits in the Q&A that he had to change his mindset to the process that Sidious had Maul and Dooku at the same time. I think this means he was also in the camp that thought originally the Sifo-Dyas thing happened after TPM, but, he had to change that thought process because of something he saw in the continuity., and I would bet my ass it's something from the old EU, but, I can't be 100% on that.

    It sounds like from the video that Lucas wanted it wrapped up nice and tidy before he left (retire), but left it up to Filoni to figure it out. If Lucas was in on those discussions, then there is no need to call Hidalgo to straight everything out. Lucas would have just told him what he (Lucas) wanted.

    So it is all moot at this point because the Canon is now Canon, it's just now interesting that what Lucas said and originally planned is not what is Canon, because someone else had a different opinion.
     
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