ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

A good friend of mine who is also big into nerdy, genre properties like Star Trek but never really got into SW (watched them of course but never became fan) actually texted me after watching Rogue One with the words "maybe SW finally becomes something that is for me".

She isn't into either one of the trilogies. So Rogue One was the SW first movie she did really like.

Ironically for me I really like it because I think it fits very well with the OT and enriches it. If the ST didn't detract from the OT for me, I wouldn't be remotely as disappointed by it.

I think if Mandalorian, Cassian and Obi Wan carry that RO tone, they could work for a multitude of people.

 

Yup. That’s my experience with many of my work colleagues, my wife, my in-laws, and if you go through the Rogue One critic reviews, lots and lots of reviews from people who aren’t (weren’t) Star Wars fans. The idea that it only appealed to hardcore fans is an odd and completely unsubstantiated idea that I think derived mostly from the concept of the film - which builds on text from ANH’s opening crawl. The idea seems niche, but the execution was not. And the tone appealed to a whole new age bracket and type of viewer. Like your good friend.

I actually think Lucasfilm must have some data affirming this, which may explain their choice of TV shows, which seem to be carrying on the Anthology style into that realm. They must know that there’s a new audience, as well as a fan audience, that they’re tapping into there.

 

@The PiedPiper of Alderaan the issue is that (and it's really KK's and Abrams' faults for not being able to parse nuance) it feels like the ST is being made by people who think that only the OT is what constitutes Star Wars and we're getting a boring rehash in the form of the ST as a result. The PT was highly flawed but for those of us who grew up with it, a lot of the concepts it introduced feel like natural Star Wars to us such as an entire order of Jedi with a central temple and High Council, formal Master-Padawan pairings, their relationship with the Republic, the idea of Senatorial politics, etc. The ST wants to pretend like all of that never existed and in doing so is shrinking the universe back down to Rebels vs Empire.

 

I can agree with this. I enjoy watching the ST more, simply because, as you said, the dialogue and performances are better (and, perhaps most importantly for me, the characters are generally more likable and/or interesting.) I also think the ST is directed better in terms of pacing, cinematography, staging, etc. But at the same time, I do miss some of the creativity of the prequels. I didn't love all of the creative decisions that were made for the prequels (I flat out disliked quite a few of them), but I appreciate that they were creative, and that's often lacking from the ST.

As for the OT, I can't fairly judge it. I saw it when I so much younger, in an era before everything got over-analyzed by internet critics. So in a lot of ways, it got a free pass for things that would probably be held up to greater scrutiny today. Also, with the OT, even when it struggled with plot and dialogue, people were just wowed by the visuals effects and music. These days, pretty much every big blockbuster movie has phenomenal sound and visuals. Audiences are a lot more jaded now than they were back then.

 

I've never quite understood the SW was for kids and its audience had grown up by the PT argument. I suppose that is true for some but not for me. I was a kid during ANH, and loved the first 2 films, ESB even more, but was disappointed the first time I saw ROTJ. I was 12 or 13, but the Ewoks and some of the cheap humor horrified me. I love ROTJ now, but still don't like Ewoks lol.(sorry). I did not like TPM at first for the same reasons. I do like it now, quite a bit, but it took me a while. But even when I grew up, ANH and ESB were still perfect movies to me. No one calls Wizard of Oz a kid's movie even though it is, but all ages can enjoy it. I call it the cringe factor. I love the SW series but certain parts make me cringe. I absolutely adore Temple of Doom but parts make me cringe. Raiders and Crusade do not and never have. To me there is a difference between a great kid's movie and pandering to kids, and I would have felt that as a kid as well. Like a fart/burp joke is just a cheap laugh that takes me out of the film completely.

 

I'm still hung up on the return of Palps, I just can't see anymore how he can come back without it completely ruining the canon and Episode I-VI and all of the animated shows

 

I believe it was basically mandated by people higher up than them that the ST MUST be made that way. Yes, i understand that was probably a wise BUSINESS move, but the actual story that came about because of this restriction just ruins the cohesion and characters of Ep1-6 to me.

 

I’m of the opinion that there’s multiple camps within camps though. And that the gains for IX can be won there by a strong General Audience and critical reaction while also seeing movement in some of those camps within camps who feel like their voices were heard. Even if the plan was always for VIII to be purposefully “the hardest thing for the audience” hailstorm before the rainbow of IX regardless of what those camps within camps said.

Those who love VIII for example weren’t the ones writing the letters “SJW” in Youtube comments sections or RT reviews. They weren’t the reason certain subreddits who shall remain nameless implemented rules to avoid being overrun by that kind of anger.

What this lead to was that those who couldn’t care less about sociopolitical messaging but who were angry about Luke or the non-lineage reveal, or Reylo ended up having to share that side of the argument with others who were vehemently opposed to what they saw as a feminist, pro-animal rights, anti-weapons manufacturing, anti-toxic masculinity, anti-libertarianism, pro-multiculturalist agenda. The most reasoned criticism of VIII ended up being drowned out by literal re-cuts of the film aimed at taking everything I mentioned above out and aiming to make the film seem more masculine! Like... that actually happened and garnered headlines. And the irony is that some of these people feel that JJ is more neutral and closer to the Marvel agnostic approach to social messaging in comparison to Johnson. So, part of that camp may actually see IX as a victory already and will see Luke shown to be more strong and powerful, Rose cleaned up more and wearing makeup and staring at maps waiting for the man she loves to return, and new Marvel-esque and ultra masculine Knights of Ren entering the picture, with more 1980s bro work between Poe and Finn and no Holdo or Leia around to tell them to cool it... all as them being heard by Lucasfilm. Even though JJ May have just decided on all of that for reasons totally unrelated to their demands at all and just chose these directions due to story structure.

About the only thing so far that I can see truly angering this group from the leaks more than VIII is Leia’s Jedi influence taking an aspect of what they wanted for male Luke as a female role model and them taking that as some kind of slight to men but Leia’s developed such positive goodwill with them from childhood nostalgia that I suspect they’ll grin and bear it as logical.

I’ve already seen this with Solo on Netflix. The people who swore it off due to the messaging they perceived in VIII and rumors of Lando being presented as pansexual and L3-37’s insistence on Robot rights had many in this camp shouting, “Soylo! SJW Soylo is coming!” However, their curiosity eventually gave way on video and now the Solo comeback is underway as more and more of them realize that Solo is probably the most outright 1980s masculine offering from Lucasfilm since the last Indiana Jones film. Complete with Han making out with Daenerys. I’ve even read some comments suggesting that the reason Solo was recut was because Lucasfilm
realized they’d lost the “culture war.” This same faction feels the same way about Captain Marvel’s total role in End Game. They think she was minimized based on them and their bombing of her stand-alone.

To be clear, I don’t think Lucasfilm or Marvel listened to that group at all and I don’t think JJ did either to make IX but if they feel they were heard, regardless of the truth, they’re going to send a message with their purchases. If IX sees a boost from them trying to send a message of “Keep SJW messaging out and you’ll get more money from us” AND sees a boost from the anti-Reylo contingent who saw Reylo as anti-feminist who like that it’s positioned as dark side and something she opposes in combat, AND gets a boost from moderate ReySky fans who mostly wanted her not to be a total random and who accept the last name change and welcoming into the family, AND gets a boost from those who felt like they couldn’t see an end game to any of this after VIII who end up surprised by the twist and the way it ties her into Star Wars history and the new Skywalker family coming together to stop him once and for all, AND some of the less passionately opposed Luke fans feel happy with the time they get with him in IX with renewed purpose and coolness, then the combination of all of those gains in all of those camps within camps, moving over from the “I hate VIII” side to the “IX made things better for me” will more than tip the scale toward IX reaching iconic status because I think it will be an enormous hit with general audiences and those who already enjoy the ST.

The difference for some of us who love VIII is that we always saw VIII more as a second act necessity of struggle prior to the rainbow of IX. We want a happier and wiser Luke now, too. We want some more training for Rey. We didn’t want IX to become Twilight with poor messaging that rewarded abusive behavior either. Many of us also wanted a lineage tie and never believed that what Kylo Ren said was the end of that. We didn’t think any of VIII was the end at all. Just that it was the heroes failing and the villains winning and the audience purposefully being denied maximum satisfaction in order to save that for the finale.

IX won’t challenge ROTJ & ROTS for franchise status without gains in each of those camps within camps though and a powerful reaction from the general audience and critics. I think it will find that and that the most dissatisfied camp in the end beyond the hardline ReySky or ReySolo fans may be those who saw a romance between Rey & Ben as End Game redemption. But the gains above from all of the other camps within camps will offset for that because I don’t think Reylos boosted VIII’s perception a ton and the hardline ReySky and ReySolo were already in the nay camp anyway.

 

I am no knucklehead. How dare you.

 

Really if Palpatine's return changes anything, then what is Snoke exactly? he is practically sith, he just doesn't call himself a sith. so Anakin had to take down Palpatine by prophecy but any other dark siders do not count?

 

I am more hung up on the fact @DarthTalgus that he is coming back in regards to:

1. Wedge in the at the last minute after he wasn't even really an afterthought in TFA & TLJ.
2. That he survived all the events of ROTJ instead of acting dying and now is being brought back to life by Kylo/KOR.

I actually still think TROS can be good but really even if it is, it's definitely going to leave a major tarnish all everything unless these spoilers are false.

 

Whoa. That's a lot of Sith Troopers. Looking like a Clone Army to me

 

Why in the everloving hell do we never see Kylo with the mask in official footage, just promotional material?

 

So it was always about forcing the with to change their name to something else. seems like abit of a cheat in the prophecy there.

 

Agreed.

And, ironically, the ST presented an opportunity to somewhat "remake" the PT as well - show the rebuild of the Jedi and the Republic in a way that "fixes" the perceived issues with the PT - focus on politics, etc.

 

I doubt we will see any rebuilding happening here. personally i think many who grew up in the OT will want to play with their toys in the same similar fashion.

Thats why i think the Mandalorian will feel more like the OT then people would expect. there will be this desire to keep it the same.

 

They are not just making KOTOR here.(which would be awesome) They are messing with characters we have known for a lifetime's legacies.

 

In a saga that’s purposefully shown the myriad ways in which prophecies and visions of the future don’t always play out as expected I’m shocked at the amount of emphasis there is placed on only one interpretation of the Prophecy being possible. Even Yoda reminds it may not be so clear and while that was related more so to the events he was dealing with in the PT the same general notion could apply now to the OT as well.

That prophecy came from some Jedi somewhere a long time ago. It was likely a vision of the future involving Anakin Skywalker’s life opposite the rise of the most powerful Dark Side seen in ages in the form of Darth Sidious. At some point Darth Sidious is defeated. This prophecy is shared and passed down to emphasize the importance of this boy born without a father’s role in all this.

That’s all there really is to the prophecy from what I can gather. It’s not like the Jedi who saw the vision witnessed the entire history of the galaxy or something and things are somehow out of whack. Anakin and his influence on others and his family line will collectively end Sidious before the end of IX one way or another. He will remain the chosen one whose rise lead to the the defeat of the Sith. Either directly as a Force ghost or through the influence he and his family’s story and kindness had on the granddaughter of the last Sith. Either way... works for me.

 

@Ender_and_Bean I have seen many here try to minimize the prophecy's role in the saga. But as others have shown, it is center stage in some of the more dramatic scenes, especially in ROTS.

So I think the burden of proof is really on those who think bringing Palpatine back is a good idea, to show how that makes sense in light of what the saga has shown us so far. This is the burden JJ carries into IX.

 

Having lived through all of the saga what you are saying about the general consensus feels true and I have many in my family that are casual and me and my little brother are hardcore so I see it from both perspectives.

Why anyone tries to deny the divisiveness of TLJ is beyond me. You can love a thing and admit the other half of the audience hated a thing. I didn't hate the movie but I understand why some people absolutely love it and I am okay with that.

Yes... Okay, and don't think the so called critics especially in LA and NYC did not take notice of this action by Disney.


As an aside... I love how Pablo hates youtube'rs leading the anti TLJ hate. But it was LF that invited a bunch of YT critics and influencers to both of the premiers of TFA, RO & TLJ... lawd.... the walking contradictions....

 

Snoke was a powerful dark sider but he was no Sith, the Sith have been shown to have powers and rituals that no other Dark Side group possess. Snoke was no match for Sidious or Vader IMO. The Sith are different from other dark groups so Snoke can't be compared to them at all.

 

I’m only minimizing a narrow interpretation for a relatively expansive and broad prophecy framework whose final checkmate can still be accomplished through the Chosen One’s rise and influence directly or indirectly over those who land that final blow.

If there was somehow a prophecy that foretold that Susan B Anthony would rise as a leader and be the chosen one to lead women and men to agreeing that women should have the right to vote would that prophecy be wrong due to Susan B Anthony dying 14-15 years (Netherlands, Great Britain & America passing bills for women to vote) prior? Sometimes the real death blow to something evil and unjust is delivered before the enemy physically drops dead. Anakin’s turn against Sidious and his offspring’s own stories and kindness to his granddaughter landed the death blow on Sidious long ago. He just hasn’t dropped yet.

 

Regarding the bolded - that is purely a fabricated construct in the mind of the screenwriter of IX. In the mind of the audience, he was (literally) dropped in ROTJ.

So why does it make sense to bring him back in the ST?