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ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Darth Chiznuk , Dec 12, 2017.

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  1. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    "Based on your recent viewing habits:"
     
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  2. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Not trying to be antagonistic, but if Marvel did this, their fans would love. Why do we as Star Wars fans would not like it?

    It is mystical, it implies that there is a strong connection between then, it is different, interesting, and not so far from the Force-vision Rey had on TFA, which was one of the most interesting moments of that film.

    JJ would never make it look a cheap nostalgia trip. He did it very well on the TFA force-vision.

    The ST is expading the Force, with Force vision, Force communication, Force projection... so this fits with the expansion of the Force.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    It could work if... and this would need to be surgical in its execution... the emphasis is finally placed on proper lightsaber combat being something done in the Force, as opposed to semi-apart from relying on it. As Ricardo alluded to, if the point being made is that lightsaber combat should be as spiritual a practice as, say, lifting an X-Wing or communing telepathically, it may just be amazeballs to finally be shown that through lightsaber combat... just the same as through any other aspect of tapping into the Force... "things you will see. The future. The past. Old friends long gone".

    But, this will have to be done near-perfectly.
     
  4. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2017
    It sounds very surrealist for Star Wars, but I could see them doing it because the "Rey-as-fangirl" concept has been a central themes of the ST all along. She knows the major events and players of the saga and is in a unique position to evaluate them, which provides a surrogacy through which audiences can experience the story. Having her visually re-live the major events of the saga would only formalize this aspect.

    And in principle, I'm not opposed to it because it would finally provide an in-universe explanation for her apparent omniscience. But yes, the execution would need to be perfect or it could turn into a mess.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  5. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2004
    Yes, these "flash fights" do peak my interest. I think they have the potential to be quite visually stunning, but it’s a delicate endeavour.
     
  6. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Perhaps. But my problem with it may lie fundamentally with the idea of lightsaber combat as mystical (or as a medium for a mystical experience). That just sounds a tad contrived. If you want to jump back to past duels, or past important force-imbued moments, meditating or other more traditional conduits for spiritual experiences seem to be more appropriate. Flashing back as lightsabers clash...I have difficulty imagining how that wouldn’t come across as contrived. I have a similar issue with the Force Skype sessions in TLJ. Sudden force connections, precipitated without meditation or deep reflection, just comes across as artificial to me. A force shortcut, if you will.

    The TFA forceback shared this attribute, but that was mitigated by the old trope of the magical item, so I accepted it. So if there’s a mitigating factor like that in TROS, I could accept it. Such as, for example, Rey and Kylo holding Anakin’s saber and meditating. Or something. But if the visions flash as lightsabers clash? I can’t imagine that not being dumb to me.
     
  7. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    Not sure I agree.... the lightsaber is an important symbol throughout the saga. A lot of important moments have happened during lightsaber fights. I mean, COULD it be cheesy? Sure. And maybe it would be. But as I consistently say, "execution matters." I have my issues with JJ's style, but one thing thing I like about him is his ability to deliver on scenes that might sound a bit silly on paper. I think the transitions would matter (think the Forceback). I like the idea of the Force coursing so powerfully around these two that stuff happens no one intends or expects. It's a almost like a "Force Short" So much power that something is bound to happen.
     
  8. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Also, while thinking of lightsaber combat as more Force-centric may seem new, try to discern why you may have had a subconscious problem with a scenario like Grievous busting out lightsabers. I think we all had an underlying understanding that lightsabers ought to be Force-centric.
     
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  9. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Problem is there would be so much going on in the scene that Rey and Kylo fight wouldn't be the main Focus, even more so if it keeps changing each time with past fights being included.

    Personally i think it will just be recognizable locations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  10. Green_Destiny_Sword

    Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 20, 2001
    What is “balance” in the SW saga? I maintain that the term really makes no sense from a story standpoint.

    My biggest issue with force flash fights is that it begs the questions: 1) can you die in this kind of duel? If yes 2) why didn’t Luke use this power? Wouldn’t that have made more sense on Ach-To if he didn’t want to commute to face Kylo?
     
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  11. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 29, 2016
    Agree...never really understood the prophecy of "balance." To me, balance means all dark and light side users are gone OR they have equal numbers on both sides OR the only users left are "Grey."

    To me, Sidious (and Vader) being killed didn't balance the force, it tilted the scales all the way to the light.
     
  12. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    Let's ask George! Oh, wait, he changed his mind about that one on record:p I prefer the absence of "dark" homeostasis concept, but I think canon is dark and light balancing.

    FWIW, I think it's obvious that Anakin did not, in fact, bring balance as was assumed at the end of RotJ, which opens up the prophecy and how balance will be attained, by whom.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Balance in Star Wars was inspired by Yin/Yang.

    Yin and yang is a concept of dualism in ancient Chinese philosophy, describing how seemingly opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another.

    Rey and Kylo, basically.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  14. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Correct. Despite their vast difference in age, Anakin gets "brought into the story" by the Force at exactly the same moment in Galactic history that Darth Sidious puts his own plan into action.

    Darkness rises and light to meet it and all that.
     
  15. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I really thought TLJ covered balance pretty well in Rey's island meditation.

    However, it doesn't present a solution for a better way. It's like if the scales have to balance in the Force, rising power on one side means rising power on the other, and no end to the star wars.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  16. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Well when there were already many jedi in the PT and no sith... that kinda gets abit questionable. even if you say Palpatine, but then many more sith should exist.
     
  17. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    It's not only about Jedi and Sith. The reason Palpatine was spreading corruption in the galaxy is because it feeds the dark side. All the decisions made by everyday people are part of the equation. All their "sins" collectively make the dark side stronger. And that calls for stronger forces to counter it on the other side.

    It is worth noting that the sith were generally stronger. There were fewer of them, but even Yoda with all his ahem midichlorians couldn't defeat Sidious.

    Fast forward to Snoke who is said to be even more powerful than Sidious.

    It's almost like the two sides keep building off each other, getting stronger and stronger.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  18. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    This is a valid point. Sidious corrupted countless seats in the Senate, which corrupted countless systems. He instigated war. He instigated mistrust. He instigated lies.

    In countless people and countless planets which added up to countless systems. The Dark Side was not at work only in one man. It was working through millions who were then being puppeteered... and fed off of... by one man.
     
  19. superstardestroyer-1

    superstardestroyer-1 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    I think the difference is Marvel fans see the movies as fun adventures while Star Wars fandom has somewhat built the canon up to almost religious importance. I don't think Marvel fans get as worked up by little plot points, ill placed humor, etc. I find myself picking those movies apart for those aspects and my friends just look at me like I'm nuts.

    Actually, I think that idea could be really great. I don't think it cheapens anything. Sometimes, I do think fans who analyze Star Wars films, myself included, tend to take this franchise more seriously than it was ever intended even by Lucas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  20. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    If they play this up as if to say the dark side has consumed the galaxy for generations since TPM days and that Sideous was behind it all from the start in one way or another and also play it up as if he is SO difficult to defeat, then they can have a build up that would be incredible.

    Building up ROS as if it is the conclusion only to THIS trilogy won't completely cut it. But build it up as a true finale to the 9-part series and tie it all together as a real "Light side vs Dark side" battle then it could truly be something special that feels like a summation of 42 years.

    Perhaps Sideous was looking for another Skywalker to corrupt in order to come back and Ben Solo was the key to this. He used this "Snoke" persona to lure Ben to become Kylo so that Sideous himself could rise again. But this time there's more than just having to kill Sideous' physical entity. They have to find a way to destroy his entire soul which still lingers on infecting the galaxy just as it always had.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    FWIW the "even numbers" concept has been disproven according to Lucas-canon.
    It is balance in the force, not even numbers or even power levels on both sides.

    According to the original six films, at least in the period from 1-6, the Sith are the main cause of the imbalance.
    When Sidious and Vader are gone, balance is (at least temporarily) restored. The force went out of balance (regardless of numbers on both sides) when Sidious imposed his will on the force for his own ends and pushed it into darkness. As others noted: the Sith and the darkside encourage the darker nature of all sentient beings, who in turn feed the dark side and the Sith's growing power with their darker feelings and actions.

    This concept of force balance is also separate to the necessary balance within a force-sensitive individual, where I think it is implied Luke is wise enough to realise there needs to exist both light and dark within a Jedi, a balance.


    It remains to be seen whether the new canon simply discards this interpretation of macro balance in the force, or alternatively does what I'm hoping for - cleverly works it into a semi-retcon where there is balance brought both by Anakin and his descendants, and Rey and Kylo as equal opposite answers to each other can coexist with Lucas's philosophy that the force can be balanced with the Jedi solely in power.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  22. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    I think my question is if there is something that the Jedi could do in the future to prevent an escalating Force conflict that regularly erupts into full scale galactic war. Is there something about their side that creates a problem that the dark side can rise in response to. I think probably the question I'm wondering is if the use of the Force by the Jedi causes some sort of issue that makes the dark side rise. In the Luke novel, which I still haven't read but have read excerpts from, I remember there was some super powerful Force creature dormant in an asteroid belt (is it so powerful it needs to sleep because otherwise something may riiiiise in response to it) and there were those people talking about the tides who had a more hands-off concept of the Force.

    One question is the matter of using the Force for personal gain. Are the PT Jedi doing that by having such a hand in politics and galactic affairs and being dispatched as galactic police and military? Because even though it's for the betterment of everyone, they become personally invested and that makes it for the benefit of self.

    I just feel some piece is missing in here. I mean it could be in IX, the dark side is defeated, all is well, the end. But that was ROTJ and it wasn't the end. It will never be the end.

    Probably the Sith are basically the problem. By the time of the PT they have been growing in power in secret and passing it on for probably at least a thousand years, and probably each master and apprentice gained more power than the last set for the dark side. So they've been building the dark side in secret and the issue is the Jedi didn't notice until it was near the end. (Though part of the problem was their Jedi temple was sitting on that dark side shrine that was apparently still active even though the Jedi thought it wasn't.)

    But it's also just apparent that there wouldn't be this conflict all the time were people not so strong in the Force, and if each side can gain more and more power in its attempt to counter the other, then it becomes this escalating power problem.

    The Force perhaps isn't supposed to be a source of power at all?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  23. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    Interesting point. So if Kylo and Rey lost their super-abilities, and the force manifested in broom-boy type smaller powers, balance would be achieved. But then would it still be Star Wars?
     
  24. Ton_G

    Ton_G Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 15, 2002
    There is little in-universe evidence, at least in the movies, that balance is between light and the dark. Dark and Light do not seem to be about the balance of opposite, limited/unlimited, one/many, but between harmony and corruption. If anything, the principal feature of the Dark side is selfishness and its attendant forms of manipulation, a misuse and twisting of the Force, a shadow or pit in the (the living?) Force created by misuse. Now in TLJ, Luke certainly points to life and death as harmony in the Force but that is distinct from the life/death balance he points out earlier in the lesson. Given the distinction made between the Cosmic and Living Force, you might might be able to work out a taxonomy like so

    Cosmic Force (Supracosmic principle of order)
    ............ |
    .............| (Balance)
    .............|
    .......Living Force (Expression of Order "Life Creates it")
    ........|................|
    Life <balance>Death
    ............................|
    .................... Dark Side (Corruption of natural forces of destruction to control the processes of the living Force, even against the principles of the Cosmic Force)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  25. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    I haven't watched to confirm, but supposedly on the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, GL said:

    "[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
     
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