Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Read the whole quote....the bold part should help. I posted what I did as a response to the 'argument' that the Hayden ghost "can't" be Anakin pre-turn, due to the Jedi robes.

However, Lucas felt he had to change it/the scene, one or or another. It does beg to ask why.

That's nice, but then I'm not the one arguing against straw-men.

 

Moreover, meta-physics seem to speak against Hayden as a Force ghost: Ben and Yoda appear as they did when they died, not as their young and dashing self, and yet Anakin looks all young. Why? At least Shaw has the right age...

 

Neither Ben nor Yoda physically died when they moved into the Force. Neither did Hayden-Anakin.

We've already speculated on why the face was changed. I'm well aware of what's being discussed. You, whether you realize it or not, are suggesting that the robe is only brown because Shaw was wearing them. Perhaps posters who argue against straw men are asking themselves WHY the robes were UNchanged. They weren't left in on accident.

 

Ben died when he was killed by Vader slashing him with his lightsaber. Yoda died peacefully at home. Clearly physical deaths. Their spirits did not die, they bodies certainly.

Luke: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

Yoda: "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong." The master then goes on to explain that death is a natural part of life, and a natural path with those who are in harmony with the Force.

 

Ben and Yoda physically vanished upon death.

NEITHER Anakin did.

So this particular issue is a stalemate.

 

The difference here is this. Ben and Yoda DISAPPEARED. No dead bodies. Same thing for Anakin-proper.

Aha! But how can Anakins physical body disappear when Vader's using it?

 

So? They still died. You will recall that Qui-Gon died, left a dead body and still became a Force ghost. Though we never actually get to see him.

Anakin doesn't die physically until ROTJ. He might have been badly burned on Mustafar, but he does not die there.

 

Well, that's a WHOLE other debate

 

Or, in both cases, it all happened. However, in the Hayden version, while Vader 'happened', he had 'no effect' upon Anakin , as though he really was a different person - the one actually 'responsible' for all of the evil/bad deeds.

'Without evidence' - you mean the fact that I can't "prove" a *negative ? And I 'offered' Palpatine AND Dooku...


*something we never saw, ie Dooku and Palpatine 'ceasing' to be Dooku and Palpatine when they turned to the d.s.

Right...and then during their subsequent fight, he berates Vaderkin for his "lust for power" . He doesn't chide him for committing evil "all for Padme".

"But why go by what actually happened in the film, when it's easier to blindly follow the latest gusher theory invented for the purpose of getting the Star Wars saga out of it's existential jam(s)"

Yes, let's DO go by "what actually happened in the film(s)"...and when we do, we see that Yoda and Obi-Wan, neither in the PT or in the OT, display any knowledge of Anakin's prime motivation for turning - saving Padme.

 

I just think that Anakin's ghost form is a reflection of how he sees himself.





Anakin likes old Ben's outfit
/LM

 

Not entirely correct. Yoda does have insight - Anakin asks him for advice about his attachment to a very special person. Yoda might not get a name, but given his wisdom and insight (and given Anakin's feelings at the moment) it shouldn't be too hard for Yoda to piece things together. And even if he doesn't figure out who the person is, he still knows that Anakin has trouble letting go - which is what Yoda advices him to do - let go.

 

I agree with TOSCHISTATION here. The only ones who definitely know that Anakin is trying to save Padmé are Anakin, Padmé and Palpatine.
Obi-Wan, Yoda and even Mace ("Don't listen to him, Anakin")might understand exactly what's going on, but that is never explicitly established.
Yoda knows that Anakin wants to save someone close to him from dying.
Obi-Wan knows that Anakin and Padmé are a couple.
Mace knows that Palpatine offers Anakin the power to save someone he loves and that Anakin thinks he needs Palpatine. He learns both of these facts seconds before his own demise, though, so that knowledge has no impact whatsoever on anything.

That's all we know for sure.





Anakin - he listens
/LM

 

Right, Lars_Muul.

Danaan, even with this 'insight', Yoda deems Anakin as "gone" and "consumed" towards the end of ROTS, after seeing the video of Vaderkin killing Jedi in the Temple. Now, why would he think this if he knew that Anakin was doing it ALL to save a loved one? I think it's more likely that Yoda's opinion is based around the whole "lust for power" theme*, to which Obi-Wan agrees (though he continues to call Vaderkin 'Anakin' during their duel on Mustafar).

Come ROTJ, when Ben and Yoda find out that Vader told Luke who his father was, they STILL think that Anakin is 'gone' and can't 'come back'....now, if they knew that Anakin turned to the d.s. to 'save a loved one', why wouldn't they entertain the notion that Vader/Anakin could turn back from the d.s. 'in order to save a loved one', ie Luke???

*I think part of this lies with the problem of Lucas changing the nature of Anakin's motivation for turning while still filming the movie . He may have shot new scenes that reflected this change, but he kept in scenes and dialogue that were supporting the original theme of Anakin turning purely for 'more power'.

L_M, that's your best sig yet.

 

At first I was bothered by by this as well. It seemed too obvious but after watching it a second time, I started to think that maybe there was some hidden symbolism there. To it represens how Anakin sees himself within the JO- still an outcast- his preception of himself in the eyes of the Jedi Council- the black sheep of the family sort of speak, that no matter what he does it never seems to be enough-and the emotional baggege that he still carries that was never properly addressed and handled.

Seeing it from this POV it does make sense. Thanks for the simple yet beautiful responce JKH!

I agree with Danann, Yoda is giving Anakin a chance to open up and gave Anakin the only advice a Jedi could give him, considering the circumstances and the small amount of information he was offered. I don't think Yoda ever considered Anakin truly gone, but said so to cement the ugency of the matter and the need to act quickly in obi as to convince to Mustafar. I think his opinion comes from the belief of sacrificing one for the common good...he did not take any chances; perhaps, deep down he hopes Obi might be able to reason with him since he was the "closest" to Anakin,but Obi being the righteous Jedi he is got all political about it. I strongly believe that Yoda realized that Anakin was different but was at a loss how to handle it...something that with Luke he successes...wich leads tt Anakin's redemption.

 

Then you didn't pay proper attention when Yoda was speaking. He said very clearly that being too attached to someone (which can be seen as a form of greed/selfishness - i.e. I want you because it is satisfying for me. Contrast that with "if you love someone, set them free" kind of thinking) is a path to the Dark side. And we also see, very clearly, that it is precisely because Anakin does not listen to Yoda that he succumbs to the Dark side:

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

ANAKIN: What must I do, Master Yoda?

YODA: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

This is very a Zen, or Daoist, thought - the path to harmony comes from stop having attachments and cravings for things around you, including people, insofar as you claim ownership or say that you cannot do without someone. Only when you are that entangled emotionally with someone will the thought of losing that person be unbearable. And of course, that can be exploited as a weakness by ruthless people. Which is also what happens in the movie. But this can only be understood if you understand Zen/Daoism...which I'm sure you do, and so you can see why your initial assumptions on this were false

Actually, Yoda never says anything about the possibility that Vader can be turned back. He is also never asked about this by Luke, who only discusses that particular issue with Ben.

 

yes, he does but he wasn't always herd.

 

What is shown in the Shaw image? An Anakin who never went through Mustafar, who never fell. Thus we're essentially seeing an image of an Anakin from an alternate timeline, who - like Obi-Wan - stayed on the light side the whole time. The Hayden image merely shows things at the point at which the timelines diverge. They are tantamount.

Now we're getting somewhere.
Appeal to ignorance: because we don't see Palpatine's early years, he somehow serves as a counterexample... why? Because you wish it to be the case?

Which doesn't mean that he somehow forgets that he just heard Anakin admit exactly that.

Except that's not going by what happened in the film, it's just reiterating the same distortion and ignoring what happened because it contradicts your carelessly adopted theory. Yoda knew that Anakin was having visions of a loved one dying, Obi-Wan heard the whole thing:

ANAKIN: Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that.

PADME: At what cost? You are a good person. Don't do this.

ANAKIN: I won't lose you the way I lost my mother! I've become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of and I've done it for you. To protect you.

 

You assume that Obi-Wan heard the whole thing, but all you know for sure is that he showed himself right before Anakin shouted "LIAR!". For all we know, he might have found a bottle of blue liquor and just forgotten about his mission for a moment

Thanks, TS I'm quite proud of that one

All too true





Liquor - it's blue
/LM

 

^^^
Agreed! I never understood OW's timing in his appearance. I mean if he herd anything of what was being said & if he knew Anakin at all he would have at least waited for Anakin's responce to his wife's plea...if anything, for Padmè's sake. The only sensible explanation I can come up with is that he was testing Anakin and his claims to Padmè, to see if he really was "gone";assuming that was that was the motivation behind his stupidity, it seems a dark of Obi since he was basically gambling with the life of a pregnat woman. The result of course was disastrous!

 

I don't disagree that Yoda says this. What I disagree with is that it equates to Yoda knowing that Anakin turned merely to save Padme, and not just for 'more power'. Moreover, Yoda's words in the last half of ROTS, and in TESB/ROTJ, show him believing that Anakin turned in order to get more power.

Once again, I agree that this is where Yoda is coming from, but you must take ALL of Yoda's (and Ben's) words into consideration, and not just a scene here or there - AOTC and TESB - where Yoda spouts Zen-like 'wisdom'.

All true. However, upon learning that Luke has been told the truth about his father by Vader himself, Yoda doesn't broach the subject of "aha! this is the chink in Vader's armor! Family/loved ones is what turned your father...family might be what turns him back to the good side!" I think Yoda's lack of words here on the matter say a lot about his beliefs.

Edit:

Danaan, you also did not address the real-world aspect of ROTS, where the motivation for Anakin's turn was changed during filming (and editing), but scenes dealing with the original motivation were left in .

 

Toschi, you did not address the real-world aspect of Yoda, that he originally had no foreknowledge of the final Revenge of the Sith script. So Yoda's lack of words on family attachment has more to do with the PT ruining the OT than it does about his beliefs.

 

Well, a dicrepancy between his words in ROTS and ESB/ROTJ might just be because of another Lucas retcon- i.e. Lucas originally concieved of Anakin turning for the sake of power, and had Yoda and Ben comment to this effect, and then kinda changed his mind. That wouldn't be the first time.

However, within ROTS there is no reason to believe that Anakin turned for the sake of greed, in the sense of greed for power. We know that Yoda knows that Anakin has a lot of fear and fears loosing loved ones. We know that Yoda knows that Anakin was in great pain when his mother died. And we know that Anakin talks to Yoda about strong attachments to someone, so strong that he can't let the person go, early in ROTS, which Yoda phrases as the "shadow of greed". With all that background information - why would Yoda fail to connect the dots when Anakin actually turns? I mean, the writing is pretty much on the wall by that time. If he is talking about Greed through the rest of the movie, we have to assume that he is talking about greed for the possession of a loved one, rather than lust for power. Or possibly, he is thinking about how, when a person has turned to the Dark side, for whatever reason, the person starts focusing on the power of the Dark side and lets that lust overpower the original reasons (think here of how all Dark side Force users keep talking about how much more powerful they are than any Jedi - Dooku, Palpatine and Vader all do this).

I.e.you either a) don't consider Yoda wise, or b) don't consider Zen wise. I'd say that the only way to understand were Yoda's coming from is to understand Zen. From that perspective, Yoda does not come across as a doofus, but rather as a sage.

Well, that's your conjecture, of course, but cannot be substantiated by anything we actually see in the movie...

 

If they are 'equivalent' (iow, say the same thing), then why change the Shaw image at all? And before you say "Shaw was too old" , bear in mind that Shaw was never meant to represent the 'prequel' or young Anakin before his turn. Anakin was an older man when he died, thus his ghost looks the age of when he died - just like Obi-Wan and Yoda's ghosts have them being that of their ultimate age.

And saying that the Hayden image "merely shows things at the point at which the time-lines diverge" is 'tantamount' to saying that it shows that 'Vader' had no effect upon Anakin, that Anakin was 'static'. The Shaw image does not do the same.

Palpatine and Dooku are WEAK examples in favor of your position that turning to the dark side is a Dr.Jeckyll/Mr.Hyde situation*. Do you accept it as an argument in favor because "you wish it to be the case"???


*or, a case of "schizophrenia, demon possession,'Being John Malkovich'" etc - Thank you, Darth_Nub

But apparently it does 'mean' that, because he and Yoda 'forget' about it by the time of the OT.

"Carelessly adopted theory"? I'm not the one using Hail Mary passes in order to make the patchwork that is the Star Wars saga seamlessly hold together.

 

Actually, I did address it. However, when I watch a movie, I want to be able to suspend disbelief and take the story for granted. So...

 

When you watch Star Wars (1977) do you pretend that Return of the Jedi hasn't come out yet, or do you see Ben lying to Luke about his father? Either way, you're ignoring rationality. Its fun, isn't it?

No, I don't think you do.